Author Topic: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics  (Read 5588 times)

Offline RickKY

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Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« on: March 24, 2011, 08:59:15 AM »
1st & 10 at B20.  A1 gains 2 yards making it 2nd & 8 at B18.  After the 1st down play there are deadball personal fouls on A1 and B1.  B1 committed his foul first, followed by A1.  Dead ball fouls are enforced in order of occurrence.

Mark off 1/2 the distance for B1 foul to the B9.  Would you signal the first down here since this penalty would give a the new series?
Then mark off 15 yards to the B24.  Signal first down again for A here?

Is it proper to give multiple first down signals at different spots after enforcing double dead ball fouls?  Either way, I think it looks messy and would lead to questions from coaches, players and certainly the unknowing fans.
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry

Offline jg-me

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 10:16:08 AM »
First of all I''ll presume these fouls were clearly two separate acts with no question as to the order of occurence and the R is not mic'd precluding an effective explanation. You could try a proactive approach. Give the preliminary signals for the fouls only. Then, knowing you will have to do so anyway, go to each coach and explain what is going to transpire. Have your crew delay the actual enforcement until you (the R) are set with the coaches. Step back on the field and give the final signals while the crew enforces the penalties. Only one first down signal will be necessary and the coaches won't be bouncing up and down since they already know what is happening. I have had occassion to use this technique once in a similar situation and it works well. While there is not much you can do to avoid confusion amongst the fans their angst should be somewhat allieved by the coaches' acceptance of the play result. It does take a couple of minutes but will probably take less time than trying to explain after the fact and will definitely reduce the drama.

hoochycoochy

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 11:01:15 AM »
1st & 10 at B20.  A1 gains 2 yards making it 2nd & 8 at B18.  After the 1st down play there are deadball personal fouls on A1 and B1.  B1 committed his foul first, followed by A1.  Dead ball fouls are enforced in order of occurrence.

Mark off 1/2 the distance for B1 foul to the B9.  Would you signal the first down here since this penalty would give a the new series?
Then mark off 15 yards to the B24.  Signal first down again for A here?

Is it proper to give multiple first down signals at different spots after enforcing double dead ball fouls?  Either way, I think it looks messy and would lead to questions from coaches, players and certainly the unknowing fans.
The Official's Manual on page 50 says:

D.  When two penalties are enforced, give proper signals following each enforcement.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 07:44:27 AM »
1st & 10 at B20.  A1 gains 2 yards making it 2nd & 8 at B18.  After the 1st down play there are deadball personal fouls on A1 and B1.  B1 committed his foul first, followed by A1.  Dead ball fouls are enforced in order of occurrence.

Mark off 1/2 the distance for B1 foul to the B9.  Would you signal the first down here since this penalty would give a the new series?
Then mark off 15 yards to the B24.  Signal first down again for A here?

Is it proper to give multiple first down signals at different spots after enforcing double dead ball fouls?  Either way, I think it looks messy and would lead to questions from coaches, players and certainly the unknowing fans.

Penalize B & give the FD signal.  Then penalize A, set the chains, & make sure the down box shows "1".  JG's suggestion about informing the coaches is a good one; however, personally I'd let my wings know what's going on & trust them to provide the explanation.

jjseikel

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 08:01:25 AM »
Quote
Would you signal the first down here since this penalty would give a the new series?

Yep.

Quote
Then mark off 15 yards to the B24.  Signal first down again for A here?

Yep.

Mike L

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »
I'm only signalling once when we're done moving the ball around.
But I'm also going over to the B coach to explain why it's 1st & 10. Since he will still have the ball and it will be 1/10 the A coach probably is not going to care except for maybe an explanation of what his kid did to get the PF, which the wing can handle.

Offline RickKY

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 02:53:55 PM »
My personal thoughts and opinions are as follows.

1.  R and U agree on enforcement.  U marks off yardage in both directions.  Enforce B foul first, then A.
2.  While U is marking off yardage, R should address this with comments, then give the following signals to the press box.
   a.  After the play we have one dead ball foul on each team. 
   b.  Signals 7, 38, 8 - Dead Ball Personal Foul on the Defense - 1/2 the distance, results in a first down for Team A
   c.  Signals 7, 38, 8 - Dead ball Personal Foul on the Offense - 15 yards, results in a first down for Team A
3.  If, and only if, either coach wants an explanation, then provide him with it.  Be quick, and get back to the game.
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry

Offline VALJ

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 12:44:36 AM »
Why do we need to first down twice? We're only awarding one first down.

Whether I do it myself or let my wings do it - and that's going to depend a lot on the experience level and/or communication skills of my wings - I'm definitely going to make sure that the B coach knows we're starting the new series after enforcement at first and ten.  That was always a fun one to explain to the defensive coach.  "Yeah, coach, they committed the dead ball foul.  But they got the first down during the play, so they're starting at first and 10.  No, coach, it's not first and 25.  Yes, coach, I know you think it should be.  But we always start a series with 10 yards to go."

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 10:33:44 AM »
"Yeah, coach, they committed the dead ball foul.  But they got the first down during the play, so they're starting at first and 10.

Actually, they got it AFTER the play, on the dead ball foul by B.

Quote
  No, coach, it's not first and 25.  Yes, coach, I know you think it should be.  But we always start a series with 10 yards to go."

Well, he was right at one time (up until mid to late 90s or so).  It would have been 1st and 25 under the old rules.

And we don't always start a series with 10 yards to go.  Sometimes the series starts inside B's 10 yard line.  ;)

I still prefer the NCAA application of this rule, which would offset the double fouls since the happened in the same dead ball period.  In the above scenario, A gets "punished" more for retaliating than B did for committing the same foul.  The same miscarraige of justice can occur if they are deep in A's territory, A commits the first DBF, and B retaliates.  In that case, A can "benefit" by starting a fight.

Example: ball at the A8, 3rd and 6.  A is held for no gain.  Following the play, A shoves a B player, who in turn, shoves back.  A penalty moves the ball back to the 3, B penalty moves it out to the 18, 1st down.

I know, B didn't have to retaliate, but the penalty for retaliation is FAR worse than the original foul that instigated the fight.  If I'm a quick thinking A player, and I just saw us come up short on 3rd down, it's worth me shoving someone after the play just to see if I can get them to retaliate.  Not a huge difference punting from our own 6 vs our own 3, and a HUGE upside potential of gaining a first down if I HACK off the right B player.  It's almost a no risk foul for A.  I'm not talking about A taking a swing at someone, just a late shove into the pile of a player standing around.

Offline RickKY

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 11:54:17 AM »
Why do we need to first down twice? We're only awarding one first down.

Whether I do it myself or let my wings do it - and that's going to depend a lot on the experience level and/or communication skills of my wings - I'm definitely going to make sure that the B coach knows we're starting the new series after enforcement at first and ten.  That was always a fun one to explain to the defensive coach.  "Yeah, coach, they committed the dead ball foul.  But they got the first down during the play, so they're starting at first and 10.  No, coach, it's not first and 25.  Yes, coach, I know you think it should be.  But we always start a series with 10 yards to go."

VALJ, In the case I provided the line to gain was not reached during the down.  Since the B foul gives A a new series, signal first down.  Then after penalizing A, signal first down again.  If you skip the first first down signal, then the second would confuse everyone even more.   Afterall, how could mark off 15 yards agaisnt A and them get a new series.  Then after signalling the first first down, reminding everyone that A still has a new series following both enforcements si a good idea.

As was stated above, give all related signals after each enforcement.

I agree with Ralph about off-setting these fouls.  Did I say that?  Agree with Ralph?  WTF!
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 12:11:06 PM »
I agree with Ralph about off-setting these fouls.  Did I say that?  Agree with Ralph?  WTF!

It wasn't Ralph, it was worse: you agreed with a COACH!  yEs:

Offline RickKY

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Re: Dead Ball Foul Mechanics
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 01:37:07 PM »
It wasn't Ralph, it was worse: you agreed with a COACH!  yEs:

Ooops.  I had a different topic on my mind when I wrote that.
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry