Author Topic: 4th Down Numbering Exception  (Read 2477 times)

Offline BoBo

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4th Down Numbering Exception
« on: September 02, 2011, 05:31:14 AM »
Couple questions please and I hope it will turn out correctly so it easy to understand

Original Formation

#25 is the center

21           34  66  25  64  86             11

                   10  20    5


                          1

By rule once 25 the center puts his hands on the football numbers 34, 25, 86 become ineligible numbers by the fourth down numbering exception

Now before the ball is snapped #20 shifts to be on the line to the right of number 86. He sets for the one second count.

After all of Ks players are set #11 steps backwards and then goes in motion across the backfield and the ball is snapped.

My question is when #20 places himself in a covered up position on the line has he now deemed himself ineligible under the 4th down numbering exception rule?

Once a player becomes ineligible they remain ineligible throughout the play?

Comments

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 07:28:30 AM »
Good question!

I believe he's OK.  The NX rule says, in part:  "A player in the game under this exception must assume
an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends..."

Therefore, we deem #34, #25 & #86 to be the replacement linemen, and they can never become eligible.  #20 was initially a back, then became a lineman (albeit an ineligible receiver), then became an eligible receiver.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 08:10:43 AM »
Couple questions please and I hope it will turn out correctly so it easy to understand

Original Formation

#25 is the center

21           34  66  25  64  86             11

                   10  20    5


                          1

By rule once 25 the center puts his hands on the football numbers 34, 25, 86 become ineligible numbers by the fourth down numbering exception

First, let's assume you are talking about a 4th down (or try), and that #1 is at least 10 yards behind the line.

And 25 is a "snapper".  He may or may not be the "center", but that doesn't matter.

As for "once the center puts his hands on the ball, the others become ineligible", his hands on the ball mean nothing.  Suppose the snapper breaks the huddle early, runs to the line, adjusts the ball and gets set before anyone else gets there.  Who is eligible now? The determining factor in their eligibility is where they are when they take their initial positions.  That has notng to do wth the snapper putting his hands on the ball.

But I agree, once the assume the positions you have shown, they are in the game under the numbering exception, and are ineligible.

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Now before the ball is snapped #20 shifts to be on the line to the right of number 86. He sets for the one second count.

Legal, and since his INITIAL position was not as an "excepted" number, he is currently ineligible by position, but not by number.

Quote
After all of Ks players are set #11 steps backwards and then goes in motion across the backfield and the ball is snapped.

#11 must step back and pause, establishing himself as a back.  Otherwise, he must be 5 yards behind the line when the ball is snapped, or we have an illegal shift.

Quote
My question is when #20 places himself in a covered up position on the line has he now deemed himself ineligible under the 4th down numbering exception rule?

No, because he did not assume an INITIAL position under the exception, so he's not in the game as an exception.


Quote
Once a player becomes ineligible they remain ineligible throughout the play?

No.  A player that starts as an ineligible remains ineligible.  That's different than temporarily being inelgible during shifts.


Offline RickKY

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 08:24:26 AM »
In the scenario presented, 34, 25 and 86 are all legally in the formation under the 4th down numbering exception, and all 3 are ineligible.

Number 20 is legally in the backfield, not part of the numbering exception, and is eligible following multiple shifts, if he is eligible by position at the snap.  This would be that same as if he lined up in the TE position with a WR on the line, the WR shifts to the backfield, or the TE shifts to the backfield.
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry

Offline InsideTheStripes

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 09:37:36 AM »
#11 must step back and pause, establishing himself as a back.  Otherwise, he must be 5 yards behind the line when the ball is snapped, or we have an illegal shift.

I know it's pedantic, but this would be illegal motion not an illegal shift.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 12:22:05 PM »
I know it's pedantic, but this would be illegal motion not an illegal shift.

I debated that before I wrote it without looking it up, and guessed wrong!

If #11 stepped off before #20 was set, I could argue for an Illegal Shift.  But we clearly said that #20 was set before #11 stepped back, so I have nothing to use to back myself up.

I missed it, but I'll claim it as a minor instead of major error!

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 02:20:28 PM »
I answered this on the other board a whole lot simpler nAnA   

Best wishes and good luck to everyone tonight.  Time to go get stretched!

Offline bossman72

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 09:26:27 AM »
once someone is established as a numbering exception player, he is INELIGIBLE throughout the down, no matter where he shifts to.  see case book 7.2.5 SITUATION D

Offline Curious

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Re: 4th Down Numbering Exception
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 03:40:24 PM »
It would be "cleaner" if 11 stepped back and established himself as a back first; then 20 stepped up on the end of the line...or both moved to their final positions at the same time.

It might avoid an erroneous flag....

But I don't see 20 making himself permanently ineligible in the OP.