Author Topic: After try, score may be 6-1  (Read 16943 times)

Offline bbeagle

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After try, score may be 6-1
« on: August 23, 2012, 07:35:36 AM »
Despite no new or changed rule in the rule book, and nothing in the rule book allowing this, read this new case play:

* 8.3.3. SITUATION B: During a non-kick try, A1 fumbles the ball, and in scrambling to recover the ball and avoid defenders, retreats into his own end zone where he is tackled. RULING: This is a one-point safety where B is credited with a point, and A must then free-kick as normal. This is the only means of B scoring points on a try.

So, B now CAN score on a try by A. And if the score is A leading 9-8, at the end of the 4th quarter with 0:00 on the clock, a TRY MUST BE ATTEMPTED because 'B' could score and tie the game up 9-9?

« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 08:45:52 AM by bbeagle »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 08:51:25 AM »
The possibility has existed long before they decided to publish a case play.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 09:12:31 AM »
The possibility has existed long before they decided to publish a case play.

But the rule book states NOTHING about this being possible. It only states that A can score 1 or 2 points. B has never been able to score on a try before this case ruling.

8.3.3 During a try, A may score two points from what would be a touchdown or one point for a field goal or safety by B under rules governing play at other times during the game.

No scoring by B is covered in the rules.

Technically, B could score a touchdown if they recover a fumble in A's endzone (or intercept a pass in A's endzone thrown from A's endzone), but this 2-point defensive conversion is not specifically covered either.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 09:16:30 AM by bbeagle »

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 09:43:35 AM »
This is not a new scenario. IMO, Rule 8 seems clear. 8.1 Point Values= A safety during a try is 1 pt. 8.3 Try=Try ends when B secures possession. The rules do not allow B to score a TD during a try.

By the way, has anyone ever seen a safety during a try?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 10:03:23 AM »
"that which is not prohibited is allowed".

Legal principle I picked up somewhere along the way working in the court system.
Just because the Fed finally got around to writing a case play in the case book doesn't mean some new rule was just established.

 bbeagle  the Fed introduces stuff all the time that gets suggested to them.  They can also make glaring mistakes, omissions and  have some sloppy editing along the way.  Just last year they accidentally resurrected a dead case play that was no longer valid concerning OPI's and ineligibles.  This boo-boo caused much angst in the officating community until they issued an update near the beginning of the season.

The scenario in that case play you mentioned has been posed to me by one of our umpire/refs several years ago.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 10:04:43 AM »
Try=Try ends when B secures possession. The rules do not allow B to score a TD during a try.

I agree. The try ends when B secures possession, but this could be in A's endzone. Why would that NOT be a touchdown?

The rules don't say that B can or cannot score a safety, and they don't say that B can or cannot score a touchdown either.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 10:06:13 AM »
"that which is not prohibited is allowed".

So, according to this, B may score a touchdown on a 2-point try by intercepting a pass in A's endzone thrown in A's endzone?


Offline jg-me

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 10:07:39 AM »
Actually this would be a new scenario. Sorry that i do not have a new rule book with me but I'm quite sure 8-1 gives point values based on a successful try. The case play above is clearly not a successful try for A. Also, check 8-3-3 (?) - this tells you how A may score points on a try. There is no rule stating that B may score points or how they would be scored.
  I received a call from a state interpreter several weeks ago about this case play and NF may be revisiting this ruling. Of course, if it stays as is you do have case book justification for allowing B to score the point.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 10:09:38 AM »
Fundamental I.8

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 10:57:16 AM »
jg-me, you are correct 8-1 does state successful try, point value for safety 1 pt.


mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 11:19:32 AM »
Fundamental I.8
"Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown."

True, but not relevant. When B gains possession during a try the ball is dead, therefore they cannot possess a live ball in the opponent's end zone.

If B gains possession during a try in A's end zone, the ball is dead by rule and a safety is awarded. No touchdown.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 11:28:35 AM »
If B gains possession during a try in A's end zone, the ball is dead by rule and a safety is awarded. No touchdown.

What is the difference between a normal down where B gains possession of a live ball in A's endzone, and a try where B gains possession of a live ball in A's endzone?

Immediately after a live ball is caught in the opponent's endzone, isn't the ball dead? A touchdown is awarded, but the ball is immediately dead, right? Where is this no-mans land where a ball is still live, a touchdown is awarded, but it's not dead yet?



mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 11:31:57 AM »
What is the difference between a normal down where B gains possession of a live ball in A's endzone, and a try where B gains possession of a live ball in A's endzone?

You've answered your own question: one is a try.

Only A can score during a try. They can score 1 or 2 points for themselves, or they can score 1 point for B. Those are the only options.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 11:33:47 AM »
You've answered your own question: one is a try.

Only A can score during a try. They can score 1 or 2 points for themselves, or they can score 1 point for B. Those are the only options.

Where is this 'can score 1 point for B' anywhere in the rule book?

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 12:36:36 PM »
Perhaps we can move to free kick FG trys after fair catches.

mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 01:03:46 PM »
8.3.3B
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 01:07:42 PM by mbyron »

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2012, 01:19:10 PM »
Perhaps we can move to free kick FG trys after fair catches.

At least those are LEGAL according to the rule book. I hope to see one of those someday.

And another odd rule... I HAVE had TWO situations where the 'opponents of the scoring team' chose to kick off to the scoring team after touchdowns. So, I have seen that rule.



Offline VALJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2012, 03:23:07 PM »
Perhaps we can move to free kick FG trys after fair catches.

At least those are LEGAL according to the rule book. I hope to see one of those someday.

And another odd rule... I HAVE had TWO situations where the 'opponents of the scoring team' chose to kick off to the scoring team after touchdowns. So, I have seen that rule.

I've seen a FG try on a fair catch.  I was working chain crew for a playoff game on a sloppy night, and the game was tied at 7 with about 8 seconds left in the first half.  The deep man called for a fair catch on K's 40.  Fell short of the EZ on the kick, though.

Something that just occured to me, though. Let's say in this situation R1 gives a fair catch signal, but the ball is caught by R2.  The ball is dead when R2 catches the ball, clock stops, but do we allow R the opportunity to free kick?  Accoring to 6-5-3, "If, after a receiver signals, the catch is made by a teammate, it is not a fair catch but the ball becoems dead."  (emphasis added)

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2012, 03:46:49 PM »
I believe this case play to be in error.

Here's where the confusion lies:

It has always been possible for A to score only one point on a non-kick try, if B forces A's fumble across their own goal line and recovers there.  (CB 8.3.3 SIT A)

It has never been possible for B to score on a try.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 05:01:56 PM »
Can anyone describe a play where B get's a safety on the try. I can't think of a way that the ball could make it into A's end zone on a try.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 08:18:39 PM »
Can anyone describe a play where B get's a safety on the try. I can't think of a way that the ball could make it into A's end zone on a try.

A1 scores TD. A1 Spikes the ball. Offensive player A2 shoves player B2 after TD. We have 2 15-yard penalties so far. Coach complains about calls, gets 3rd flag.

Try is at 47 yard line after penalties. Shotgun as Team A is going for hail Mary 2 point conversion. High snap o vet the head of QB, defense tries to recover ball at 30, ball muffed and goes through back of end zone.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 05:12:50 AM »
A1 scores TD. A1 Spikes the ball. Offensive player A2 shoves player B2 after TD. We have 2 15-yard penalties so far. Coach complains about calls, gets 3rd flag.

Try is at 47 yard line after penalties. Shotgun as Team A is going for hail Mary 2 point conversion. High snap o vet the head of QB, defense tries to recover ball at 30, ball muffed and goes through back of end zone.
Ok. I guess it's possible but unlikely.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2012, 10:08:23 AM »
Has anyone ever said this on a PAT ----

'This is an untimed down. Only the offense can score'

This is what our group of officials says every time there is a PAT. I guess what we've been saying for years and years is incorrect now?


Offline VALJ

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2012, 10:11:46 AM »
Well, in effect, A is still scoring when a safety takes place. They're just scoring for B.  :)

mbyron

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Re: After try, score may be 6-1
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2012, 10:19:30 AM »

'This is an untimed down. Only the offense can score'

This is what our group of officials says every time there is a PAT. I guess what we've been saying for years and years is incorrect now?
This is always true, though in non-try cases sometimes B is the offense. ;)