Author Topic: Enforcement?  (Read 3343 times)

mbyron

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Enforcement?
« on: August 24, 2012, 06:41:28 AM »
Saw this on another site.

4th & 6 @ B34.

A1 - the QB routinely scrambles and pumpfakes as he runs, sometimes as much as 5 yards beyond the line, in an effort to freeze the DBs.

On this play A1 is at the B32 when he pumpfakes and B99 tackles him from behind while the ball is moving forward. The ball comes out and is recoverred by A88 at the B25 yard line. After the ball hits the ground but before it is recovered B80 spears A1.

Clearly the first issue is fumble or IFP, and that's a judgment call. But what's the enforcement if the ruling is fumble? What if it's IFP?

KirbyB

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 07:46:31 AM »
If it is IFP you have a double foul - Replay the down.

If it is a fumble - enforced from the spot of the fumble (end of the run).  1st down for A @B17.

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 10:17:38 AM »
If the spearing penalty did not occur until after the illegal forward pass hit the ground and became an incomplete pass, then we have a dead ball personal foul penalty and not a double live ball foul. IMO, we are going to first assess the 5 yd. IFP from the end of the run B32. and the assess the 15 yard  Personal dead ball foul for spearing from the B37. It will be A's ball 1st and 10 from the 12.

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 10:19:49 AM »
Bad math, I meant the B22.

mbyron

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 10:51:36 AM »
If the spearing penalty did not occur until after the illegal forward pass hit the ground and became an incomplete pass, then we have a dead ball personal foul penalty and not a double live ball foul. IMO, we are going to first assess the 5 yd. IFP from the end of the run B32. and the assess the 15 yard  Personal dead ball foul for spearing from the B37. It will be A's ball 1st and 10 from the 12.
You're not enforcing the other penalty for IFP?

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2012, 11:19:04 AM »
I am not following your question? We enforce the 5 yard IFP from the spot of the foul (B32). We then assess the 15 yard dead ball personal spearing penalty. That will leave us with A's ball 1st and 10 from the B22.

What am I missing?

mbyron

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »
I am not following your question? We enforce the 5 yard IFP from the spot of the foul (B32). We then assess the 15 yard dead ball personal spearing penalty. That will leave us with A's ball 1st and 10 from the B22.

What am I missing?

7-5-2:
PENALTY: Illegal forward pass (Arts. 2a,b,c) (S35); intentional grounding
(Arts. 2d,e) (S36) 5 yards plus loss of down (S9).

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2012, 11:33:51 AM »
Got it. Thanks, I agree with you.

mbyron

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »
Got it. Thanks, I agree with you.
Well, I like agreement makes me feel as if I might be right!

But how do you adjust your enforcement?

Offline Curious

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2012, 02:51:48 PM »
Philosophically, if there have been numerous "pump-fakes" during this run, doesn't it make sense to rule this a fumble.....?

Additionally, 2-31-2 Note says: "Prior to releasing the pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact".

With that said, 2-32-11 defines a passer as: "a player who throws a legal forward pass".

In this instance, isn't A1 only a runner who fumbled the ball? 

A's ball at the B25 if the live ball spearing penalty by B (who is ejected in any event) is declined; OR depending on where the fumble occurred, that could be the basic spot for the enforcement of the spearing foul - if it were to A's advantage. 

No foul by A.  It's like an illegal kick - which is treated like a fumble.


Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2012, 02:59:39 PM »
We are going to assess the IFP 5 yards from the 32 yard line and then assess the 15 yard personal foul from the 37. It will be B's ball 1st and 10 from B's 22 yard line.

Is that what you are asking?

mbyron

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 11:52:47 PM »
Philosophically, if there have been numerous "pump-fakes" during this run, doesn't it make sense to rule this a fumble.....?

Nope. The ruling is not based on history, but on whether you judge it's a pass.

Additionally, 2-31-2 Note says: "Prior to releasing the pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact".

With that said, 2-32-11 defines a passer as: "a player who throws a legal forward pass".

In this instance, isn't A1 only a runner who fumbled the ball? 

2-32-11's definition is relevant to roughing: you can't have roughing the passer without a passer. But you also can't have an illegal forward pass without a pass, right?

A's ball at the B25 if the live ball spearing penalty by B (who is ejected in any event) is declined; OR depending on where the fumble occurred, that could be the basic spot for the enforcement of the spearing foul - if it were to A's advantage. 

No foul by A.  It's like an illegal kick - which is treated like a fumble.
No, it's either a fumble or a pass. If it's a fumble, then you have a live ball foul by B. If it's a pass, then you have an incomplete pass, a live ball foul by A (IFP), and a dead ball foul by B (IHC).

mbyron

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2012, 11:53:35 PM »
We are going to assess the IFP 5 yards from the 32 yard line and then assess the 15 yard personal foul from the 37. It will be B's ball 1st and 10 from B's 22 yard line.

Is that what you are asking?
Yes indeed. The LOD for IFP will turn the ball over!

Offline Curious

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2012, 08:57:57 AM »


No, it's either a fumble or a pass. 

Agreed; but "judgement" must take into consideration all factors that preceded the act.  Was he actually passing the ball or just faking?  Was the ball actually "released" (as required by 2-31-2) or did it just slip from his grasp?  Even an IFP is an actual attempt to throw the ball.

2-32-11's definition is relevant to roughing: you can't have roughing the passer without a passer.

Where do you get that 2-32-11 is only relative to roughing?  It's a definition/designation of a player.  I don't see any reference to RTP here.   

But you also can't have an illegal forward pass without a pass, right? 

Agreed; but I'm saying it's a fumble.

If it's a fumble, then you have a live ball foul by B. If it's a pass, then you have an incomplete pass, a live ball foul by A (IFP), and a dead ball foul by B (IHC). 

Can't disagree with this statement

Offline FBUmp

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 10:25:59 AM »
Personally, I don't care how many times he pump fakes.  If he's hit beyond the NZ and loses the ball, I have a fumble unless I see him intentionally throw the football forward.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:21:26 AM by FBUmp »

Offline Curious

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Re: Enforcement?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 10:41:00 AM »
Personally, I don't care how many times he pump fakes.  If he's hit beyond the NZ and loses the ball, I have a fumble unless I see himintentionally throw the football forward.

FB, you DO have a way to get to the point succinctly!