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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: JasonTX on July 31, 2019, 12:18:47 PM
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Does anyone have a dumbed down version of the 10 second subtraction rule that you give to clock opertators? This would be one that we give to schools that provide their own clock operators.
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Great timing ! We just finished one that TASO will be distributing through school channels to clock operators.
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Will it be publically available or only to through the schools? It'd be nice for us to have a copy ready in case the clock operator doesn't have one.
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That would be really great! Now only if the clock operators we have at varsity games would just show up before 5 minutes prior to kickoff it would help!
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That would be really great! Now only if the clock operators we have at varsity games would just show up before 5 minutes prior to kickoff it would help!
If they are stadium clock guys, I usually never see them.
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Available to all. And those who officials who have attended any summer clinics would have heard they need to make it a point to have that pregame meeting with the CO’s this year . nAnA
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Available to all. And those who officials who have attended any summer clinics would have heard they need to make it a point to have that pregame meeting with the CO’s this year . nAnA
Sounds like I'll be making some trips up to some press boxes. I like giving them a radio anyway. Not the same ones we use on the field.
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Sounds like I'll be making some trips up to some press boxes. I like giving them a radio anyway. Not the same ones we use on the field.
Through appropriate channels, ask the ADs to have the COs report to you, at your dressing room, one hour before scheduled kickoff, every game.
I know what is next: Oh, we’ll never get ‘em to do that.
Well, you won’t, if you don’t ask/insist.
Explain to the ADs the importance of the pregame conference, not just because of the 10-second subtraction, or even the 25/40 second clock. That conference is important every game, even if you have worked that venue, with those COs, 100 times.
Robert
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This is fine, but why would they need it? We announce all 10-second reductions so they only have to follow our instruction.
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This is fine, but why would they need it? We announce all 10-second reductions so they only have to follow our instruction.
Ah, you must not be from around here. 🙂
A majority of Texas stadiums are not equipped with Referee field mics. So, a major topic of discussion is how to communicate to the CO to subtract 10 seconds. Next, is a discussion about 25/40 play clocks with the PCO. Several other things to discuss. Every game. Every stadium.
Robert
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Ah, you must not be from around here. 🙂
A majority of Texas stadiums are not equipped with Referee field mics. So, a major topic of discussion is how to communicate to the CO to subtract 10 seconds. Next, is a discussion about 25/40 play clocks with the PCO. Several other things to discuss. Every game. Every stadium.
Robert
Sorry. I could have sworn I saw this in the NCAA topic rather than Texas. I even checked before I posted because I know you guys could have this issue. Fortunately the 10-second reduction is fairly rare.
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Through appropriate channels, ask the ADs to have the COs report to you, at your dressing room, one hour before scheduled kickoff, every game.
I know what is next: Oh, we’ll never get ‘em to do that.
Well, you won’t, if you don’t ask/insist.
Explain to the ADs the importance of the pregame conference, not just because of the 10-second subtraction, or even the 25/40 second clock. That conference is important every game, even if you have worked that venue, with those COs, 100 times.
Robert
Can't argue with you....but, no matter what you do, some of those old CO's will not visit with the officials before the games. The large schools districts are really the problems. You just make due and do the best you can.
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This is fine, but why would they need it? We announce all 10-second reductions so they only have to follow our instruction.
I don't know about you, but most the stadiums where I work do not have a stadium mic, and ones that do, they don't work very well. Perhaps we need to come up with a signal for the CO's.
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Looking for suggestions. One I have heard is holding palms forward like the PI signal but up over your head and then pointing to clock.
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I don't know about you, but most the stadiums where I work do not have a stadium mic, and ones that do, they don't work very well. Perhaps we need to come up with a signal for the CO's.
As mentioned above I swore this was in the NCAA topic. I am sorry about that.
If you can't come up with some kind of signal, i would just do what we do anytime there is a clock adjustment. That often involves getting to a coach on the sideline and asking him to radio up to the clock operator. Sometimes they are close enough they can hear us from the field but those are really small schools.
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The UIL officially "adopts" our mechanics manuals, without any exceptions, and our manuals indicate that the CO and PCO "should" report to the R & B 60 minutes before the game. As an organization, we need to lobby the UIL to reinforce this, and make it a 'requirement,' and advise their districts.
Also, we need to lobby the UIL to require some form of electronic communication system from the field to the CO/PCO's location. Yes, that could be a Referee's field mic, so requiring a field mic at all schools could resolve the issue. Otherwise, they need to provide a ring down-up phone, a sideline radio, or a designated coach with a headset to communicate directly to the CO/PCO, or at least to the pressbox staff to communicate to the CO/PCO.
Robert
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Many years ago, I had an old R who told the AD “ if the clock operator is too busy to come visit us before the pregame, he must be too busy to run the clock. We will keep the time on the field!”
Clock operator was there inside of 10 minutes
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Also, we need to lobby the UIL to require some form of electronic communication system from the field to the CO/PCO's location. Yes, that could be a Referee's field mic, so requiring a field mic at all schools could resolve the issue. Otherwise, they need to provide a ring down-up phone, a sideline radio, or a designated coach with a headset to communicate directly to the CO/PCO, or at least to the pressbox staff to communicate to the CO/PCO.
Robert
. Right after they require 12 pylons. 😁
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. Right after they require 12 pylons. 😁
With so, so many fields being plastic grass, these days, we really don't need the hash mark pylons, any more.
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With so, so many fields being plastic grass, these days, we really don't need the hash mark pylons, any more.
Or measurements!!!
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Looking for suggestions. One I have heard is holding palms forward like the PI signal but up over your head and then pointing to clock.
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/with-his-finger-as-a-mustache-and-performing-a-nazi-salute-an-plays-picture-id525528692?s=2048x2048)
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Looking for suggestions. One I have heard is holding palms forward like the PI signal but up over your head and then pointing to clock.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/spock_performing_vulcan_salute.png)
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Looking for suggestions. One I have heard is holding palms forward like the PI signal but up over your head and then pointing to clock.
(https://brewminate.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/031119-33-Trump-Politics-768x548.jpg)
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These are perfect little radios to hand to the CO, used on different frequency than the O2O radios. This is a very quick way to get that clock set right. They are very small and can fit in your pocket.
(http://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1x2dUSXXXXXXTXXXXq6xXFXXXJ.jpg)
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Very inexpensive
[urlhttps://www.amazon.com/Original-BAOFENG-400-470mhz-Transceiver-Programming/dp/B074C1XQFL[/url]
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Very inexpensive
[urlhttps://www.amazon.com/Original-BAOFENG-400-470mhz-Transceiver-Programming/dp/B074C1XQFL[/url]
The operators don't want to visit with us before the game, but they are perfectly OK with coming down to the dressing room post-game to return the radio?
(I darned sure don't want to track down the CO post-game to retrieve it.)
Maybe we each just buy about 50 of them, set them to the exact same frequency, and start handing them out to COs (to keep in the pressbox) for the next four years, and see if we get all of the schools covered.
Or maybe the schools can buy these, and give one to the R or B before the game, to be left in the dressing room after the game. Is $40 asking too much?
Or, maybe the schools can spring for a field mic. Even the high dollar systems are less than $700. Just plug into the PA system, and, voila - announcements, plus communications with the CO/PCO.
Don't give me some 'economic burden' garbage.
Robert
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How does this look?
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Very inexpensive
[urlhttps://www.amazon.com/Original-BAOFENG-400-470mhz-Transceiver-Programming/dp/B074C1XQFL[/url]
I got a pair for less than $10 on ebay.
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The operators don't want to visit with us before the game, but they are perfectly OK with coming down to the dressing room post-game to return the radio?
(I darned sure don't want to track down the CO post-game to retrieve it.)
Maybe we each just buy about 50 of them, set them to the exact same frequency, and start handing them out to COs (to keep in the pressbox) for the next four years, and see if we get all of the schools covered.
Or maybe the schools can buy these, and give one to the R or B before the game, to be left in the dressing room after the game. Is $40 asking too much?
Or, maybe the schools can spring for a field mic. Even the high dollar systems are less than $700. Just plug into the PA system, and, voila - announcements, plus communications with the CO/PCO.
Don't give me some 'economic burden' garbage.
Robert
I’ve worked several stadiums where the stadium manager said, we have a mic, but the coach doesn’t like it so we don’t use it. Huh?
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I’ve worked several stadiums where the stadium manager said, we have a mic, but the coach doesn’t like it so we don’t use it. Huh?
that’s one way to prevent announcing of numbers 😁😁
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I’ve worked several stadiums where the stadium manager said, we have a mic, but the coach doesn’t like it so we don’t use it. Huh?
You can't fix stupid, or whatever that is. OK, coach. I'll be in your hip pocket when I need to communicate with the clock operators.
Robert
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The real fun will be with the subvarsity games. Usually those are different clock operator and less talented than the Friday night guy or gal.
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The real fun will be with the subvarsity games. Usually those are different clock operator and less talented than the Friday night guy or gal.
We may have to stand over the ball, wind the clock, then stock after 10 seconds or when the 15 year old kid decides to stop it.
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We may have to stand over the ball, wind the clock, then stock after 10 seconds or when the 15 year old kid decides to stop it.
You may have hit on something. When does the clock start following a 10-second subtraction? Ah - on the Referee's signal (by rule)! So, we just go to the ball, wind the clock - but don't let anybody snap it - then back off after 10 seconds, and let the clock keep running. Tell the teams that's what we're going to do, then go. If Team A was the offended team, they won't care. They are probably gonna run 24 more seconds off the clock before they snap, anyway (if they are smart). If the offended team is Team B, then we just need to hold the snap, then back off quickly, to let Team A snap the ball as quickly as they can legally.
That could work - in the absence of a good way to communicate with the CO.
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By the way, did anybody see the final 1:01 of the NFL Hall of Fame game last night?
Team A (Denver) was behind, the clock was running, and they committed a false start. Atlanta accepted the penalty and the 10-second subtraction (apparently, the 10SS applies in the last 2 minutes in the NFL). (As an aside, the game clock showed less that 1 minute while this was happening, which piqued my attention, i.e., "Hey are they gonna have a 10SS?") After discussion with teams, Walt Anderson announced the 5-yard penalty included a "10-second runoff," since they were inside the last 2-minutes, and had the CO set the game clock to 0:51, and announced the clock would start on his "whistle." As they were about to return to play, the crew re-convened, and Anderson made a correction announcement, that Denver had elected to take their final time out to avoid the 10SS, and that the game clock would start on the snap. All well and good. They got everything right. But, it would have been more efficient for the officials on Denver's side to have got their coach's decision regarding the use of his time out before Anderson made his first announcement.
They don't need my defense, but, in the crew's defense, and for all I know, the Denver coach may have changed his mind, in which case, the inefficiency was all on the team.
My real point in all of this is that I immediately recognized the potential for the 10SS, and followed and comprehended the proceedings fully. Even if we do it with less-than-perfect efficiency, let's get it right - as they did.
Robert
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You may have hit on something. When does the clock start following a 10-second subtraction? Ah - on the Referee's signal (by rule)! So, we just go to the ball, wind the clock - but don't let anybody snap it - then back off after 10 seconds, and let the clock keep running. Tell the teams that's what we're going to do, then go. If Team A was the offended team, they won't care. They are probably gonna run 24 more seconds off the clock before they snap, anyway (if they are smart). If the offended team is Team B, then we just need to hold the snap, then back off quickly, to let Team A snap the ball as quickly as they can legally.
That could work - in the absence of a good way to communicate with the CO.
Just gotta find a way to tell the Play Clock operator to delay starting his until 10 seconds has ran off. hEaDbAnG
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Just gotta find a way to tell the Play Clock operator to delay starting his until 10 seconds has ran off. hEaDbAnG
As Hans and Franz said, “We are here to pump YOU up!”
Robert
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These are perfect little radios to hand to the CO, used on different frequency than the O2O radios. This is a very quick way to get that clock set right. They are very small and can fit in your pocket.
(http://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1x2dUSXXXXXXTXXXXq6xXFXXXJ.jpg)
What's the advantage of buying and using a radio on another frequency versus a crew O2O? Of course there a risk of giving him a radio in the first place. It might be returned with ketchup or mustard or some other condiment or food on it...
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You don't want a non TASO CO listening to the O2O.
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Amen!!!
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You don't want a non TASO CO listening to the O2O.
Good point.
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You don't want a non TASO CO listening to the O2O.
Especially when it's 65 to 0.
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LOL
Yep
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Especially when it's 65 to 0.
“These guys are horrible.”........”oooops....”
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You may have hit on something. When does the clock start following a 10-second subtraction? Ah - on the Referee's signal (by rule)! So, we just go to the ball, wind the clock - but don't let anybody snap it - then back off after 10 seconds, and let the clock keep running. Tell the teams that's what we're going to do, then go. If Team A was the offended team, they won't care. They are probably gonna run 24 more seconds off the clock before they snap, anyway (if they are smart). If the offended team is Team B, then we just need to hold the snap, then back off quickly, to let Team A snap the ball as quickly as they can legally.
That could work - in the absence of a good way to communicate with the CO.
While this is an easy solution for the GC, the PC is now mired in confusion. When you wind it over the ball, GC and PC will both start their clocks and just letting it run after 10 has elapsed will put the PC in an awkward position. I would think to alter this to wind the clock over the ball, run 10s, stop the clock(s) and pump the PC back up. Move to positions and make ready with a wind.
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While this is an easy solution for the GC, the PC is now mired in confusion. When you wind it over the ball, GC and PC will both start their clocks and just letting it run after 10 has elapsed will put the PC in an awkward position. I would think to alter this to wind the clock over the ball, run 10s, stop the clock(s) and pump the PC back up. Move to positions and make ready with a wind.
For SV, this method would work since there is never a PC for SV games. And let 'er keep running!
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Does 10-second runoff apply in this scenario:
In the 4-Qtr, Team A 3rd and 5 from the B-35. A22 runs the ball and tackled very near the B-30 where his helmet comes off (not due to foul). The officials stop the clock for helmet off and subsequently realize they need to measure as it is not clear if the line to gain was made. There were 8 seconds on the game clock at the end of the play.
Does that provide us with multiple reasons to stop the clock and thus no 10-second runoff option?
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While this is an easy solution for the GC, the PC is now mired in confusion. When you wind it over the ball, GC and PC will both start their clocks and just letting it run after 10 has elapsed will put the PC in an awkward position. I would think to alter this to wind the clock over the ball, run 10s, stop the clock(s) and pump the PC back up. Move to positions and make ready with a wind.
I have no problem with this, either, when there is no effective way to communicate with the C/O.
Robert
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Does 10-second runoff apply in this scenario:
In the 4-Qtr, Team A 3rd and 5 from the B-35. A22 runs the ball and tackled very near the B-30 where his helmet comes off (not due to foul). The officials stop the clock for helmet off and subsequently realize they need to measure as it is not clear if the line to gain was made. There were 8 seconds on the game clock at the end of the play.
Does that provide us with multiple reasons to stop the clock and thus no 10-second runoff option?
Lacking an AR or bulletin play on this specific scenario, I would say that, if the ball is short of the line-to-gain (after the measurement), there is a 10-second subtraction option. Otherwise, the disincentive to keep the helmet securely strapped on is eroded.
If accepted, game over. If declined, PC=25 for Team A helmet, 40 for Team B helmet. Game clock starts on the snap. And, if this was the end of the second period, he sits out the next down, unless he takes a T/O (if he has one to take), which also avoids the 10SS.
However, if the ball reached the line-to-gain, then there is NO 10-second subtraction option. It would not be fair to penalize the team whose player lost his helmet, if a first down was earned by Team A, but we just weren't able to make that ruling in real time. No need for a play clock. Game clock starts on the RFP.
And, if this was the end of the second period, he sits out the next down, unless he takes a T/O (if he has one to take).
Robert
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I would say the opposite, because the helmet off was not the only reason the game clock was stopped. The game clock was stopped for the measurement, so the 10-second subtraction would no longer apply. The game clock starts on the Referee's signal, whether a 1st down was achieved or not, with 8 seconds remaining.
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I found the following in the 2018 Redding Guide (top of page 98). The 10-second runoff may apply but it depends on the outcome of the measurement.
22. There are 22 seconds remaining in a tied game. A helmet comes off on a play that ends near the line-to-gain and there is a measurement for the first down.
RULING: The 10-second runoff applies only if the measurement does not result in a first down, because the helmet coming off is the only action through play that causes the clock to stop.
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What is Redding's rationale for this ruling? To my knowledge, the 10-second subtraction only applies if the time-consuming act (foul by one team which immediately stops the clock or prevents it from starting, injury by 1team, helmet off by 1 team) or replay review is the only reason the game clock stops. In the play with the helmet off and measurement, play was stopped for 2 reasons, helmet off and measurement.
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What is Redding's rationale for this ruling? To my knowledge, the 10-second subtraction only applies if the time-consuming act (foul by one team which immediately stops the clock or prevents it from starting, injury by 1team, helmet off by 1 team) or replay review is the only reason the game clock stops. In the play with the helmet off and measurement, play was stopped for 2 reasons, helmet off and measurement.
Through play the clock stops because of the helmet coming off. The clock had to stop because of the helmet. It so happens that the play was close enough for a measurement to be warranted. Suppose the helmet did not come off and there was a measurement, if the line to gain was not met then the game clock would start on the ready for play. The clock doesn't stop for a measurement automatically, this has to be done by request of the coach or R. Bringing the helmet back into play, by rule the clock stops to allow the player to leave the game and then the clock will start on the ready. These 2 events just happened to occur at the same time. If the play left the ball one yard shy of the line to gain then this wouldn't even be a discussion. If the measurement determines there is a first down then the clock stops by rule so no need for the 10 second runoff because that would be the 2nd reason for the clock stopping.
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OK. Zap 10 applies if there is no reason to stop the clock BY RULE other than the reason for zap-10 (penalty stopping the game clock immediately or preventing it from starting, helmet off by one team, injury by one team). Do I understand it correctly now?
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Yes.
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... or preventing it from starting,
I’m not sure what you mean by that. It only applies if the clock is running.
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... or preventing it from starting, ....
Well, no. A foul that prevents the snap, yes. But the clock must be running.
Now, if a team continues to commit dead-ball fouls to keep the game clock from starting while a tired team rests a bit, the R can exercise discretionary power and set the play clock to 40, and start the game clock before another foul can be committed. After the clock gets started, then the 10SS can be used.
Robert