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National Federation Discussion / Re: Weird substitution plays
« Last post by CalhounLJ on July 27, 2021, 01:40:18 PM »
Having said that, I agree these should be fouls. Using substitution or pretended substitution to deceive.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Weird substitution plays
« Last post by CalhounLJ on July 27, 2021, 01:38:03 PM »
The substitution rule never requires a substitute to communicate to become a player or replaced player, only states that it's an option. For example, in 2-32-12, after stating that a replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute, the rule goes on to state, "A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player."

Looking at the definition of when a sub becomes a player, we find a list of options:
(1) When he enters the field and communicates...
(2) When he enters the huddle
(3) Is positioned in a formation
(4) Participates in the play.

These elements are not all inclusive. In other words, the sub doesn't have to do all these things to become a player, only one.
So, while communicating with a player or game official is certainly an option, it's not a necessity.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Fate of the Big 12
« Last post by carol1995 on July 27, 2021, 10:51:55 AM »
I would not be surprised at all to see some high school kids showing up on TV, hawking cars, burgers, real estate - you name it. A state athletic association might try to fight it, but they'll lose.

It's already happening:

https://theathletic.com/news/high-school-phenom-mikey-williams-signs-with-excel-sports-for-nil-representation/lZAhVoLxVSU9
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Fate of the Big 12
« Last post by dammitbobby on July 27, 2021, 10:21:26 AM »
Completely agree. The only (partial) solution that I've ever thought of, is for the NFL/NBA/MLB to 1) require rookies to have a college degree (but then we get players with BA in underwater basket weaving, but it's something, at least), or, 2) by pretty much following the model of businesses everywhere in that players with degrees are paid more, and are eligible for higher salaries/contracts.  This obviously would complicate salary caps, etc but IMO the NFL/NBA/MLB has a role in fixing this, since they are the sole beneficiary of college athletics beyond the college years.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Last post by Ralph Damren on July 27, 2021, 09:48:01 AM »
Good question, PABJNR, the OP has the foul occurring at R's 16 so the enforcement would result in R's ball at R's 8. I strongly feel that this would be a 9-9-1 call, as it would be similar to a player coming from the sidelines to make a TD saving tackle. While 9-6-3 covers the foul , it doesn't SPECIFICLY cover a foul that surely prevents a score. In your situation of the foul occurring in the endzone, I feel you could offer the coach the option of taking the safety -2 points- and getting the ball back or the FG. Depending on the game situation
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Fate of the Big 12
« Last post by ElvisLives on July 27, 2021, 09:36:58 AM »
Very sad that this is happening to what used to be a wonderful institution in this country - amateur sports. This is driven by nothing but money. I am all in favor of capitalism, but these are supposed to be STUDENTS first, playing sports at their institution as a recreational activity. You know. The "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" concept. When intercollegiate football got started, it was just a bunch of chemistry, business, engineering students getting together on weekends to have some fun. Then they graduated, got 'real' jobs, and contributed to society.

Athletic scholarships opened the door to what is happening today. Scholarships can be a very good thing if everyone remembers what they are. They are the compensation that the students receive in exchange for the use of their extracurricular (ha) time and athletic abilities. They get a free, or significantly reduced cost, education, in exchange for representing their institution on the athletic venue of their particular sport(s).  Fair enough. I honestly don't know what is the average cost to of an undergraduate degree. I know what my wife and I paid to put our son through a modest, but good, public university. Something in the neighborhood of $25,000. Total. For all four years. "That's all" you say? Well, I'd love to have that money back. It ain't chicken feed, to me. But, yeah. A place like SMU runs something in the neighborhood of $30,000 per year.  That's $120,000 for a four-year program. That's a lot of money to most folks. And, to walk away with a degree that will help ensure their ability to start a business, have a long, successful career in some business or trade, or develop/invent things to help America, and the world, be a better, safer place, most folks would gladly sacrifice their extracurricular time, and offer their athletic talents to accomplish.

But, today, many - not all, but many - of these people take a scholarship simply to put themselves into a better marketing position for the professional sports that seek top athletes. They use their institutions' athletic programs to strengthen their bodies, and sharpen their athletic skills. Most don't give one rats you-know-what about the educational opportunities the scholarships provide. Many are 'one and done' (especially basketball people). Even football people are getting to be 'two and out.' "What degree? Who cares? I got a big guaranteed bonus, and fat contract. Who needs a degree?"  Graduate? Contribute to society? Too, too few.

So, to keep these people from leaving prematurely, these people are now going to get paid to play college sports. Yeah, I know, marketing their likenesses, name, yada, yada. Call it what you want. They are still getting paid to play. As if the value of the scholarship isn't enough.

And that is what has caused OU and UT to jump ship. They see that, in this pay-for-play landscape, the Big XII will not be able to compete with the SEC in terms of recruiting student-athletes (term used loosely), in this environment. So, if they can become SEC members, they would then be recruiting in a broader area, with greater exposure to people in the southeastern part of the country. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

It's all about the money. With Olympic athletes getting paid, and now NCAA people, amateur sports are on their death bed. I would not be surprised at all to see some high school kids showing up on TV, hawking cars, burgers, real estate - you name it. A state athletic association might try to fight it, but they'll lose.

Ironically, and sadly, I think the Supreme Court made the right decision, based upon Constitutional law. Would that all their decisions were made as fundamentally.

 
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Weird substitution plays
« Last post by ncwingman on July 27, 2021, 07:58:57 AM »
1) They saw the "punt team" come onto the field.
2) Pre-arranged play by the HC.

I'm not saying this isn't some hinky BS pulled by the team but as to the letter of Illegal Sub under 3-7-3, I'm not sure it would meet the definitions of player and replaced player.  Wouldn't you rather use 9-6-4d and pop them with 15 for Illegal Participation for pretended sub anyway?  Given the circumstances that we see in the vid, and not being on the field to hear what was going on, I think it is actually the easier case to make under the rules.

I don't believe there's any requirement that the communication must be verbal. If a player on the field sees the punt team come on, and therefore knows he must leave, the substitution has been communicated to him.

Now, if you argue that he knows that he's got to run around in a circle to make it *look* like he's substituting, but knows that he's not, then that's intent to deceive.

I also would rather shut it down quickly so the defense doesn't burn a timeout because of these shenanigans, like they did in this situation, instead of letting it go so I can nail them for 15 yards instead of 5.
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Last post by PABJNR on July 27, 2021, 06:19:00 AM »
After proper penalty enforcement this play would result in a safety as the play meets all the criteria for PSK.  The basic spot is the 20 as the result of the TB. The foul occurred in the EX behind the basic spot.

If utilizing unfair acts 9.9.5 the travesty rule, a FG could be awarded as an equitable penalty for the act. 

This is one where I could see using 9.9.5, but I think I would get my guys under the uprights and ask was that FG going to be good.  If they say no it definitely wasn’t going to be good, I would likely go safety. If they say yes it was going to be good. I would be tempted to give K a choice of taking points or enforcing from previous spot.

Ralph question for you if invoking 9.9.5 do you feel it would be appropriate to offer K an option.  The reason I ask is in my opinion either option would be equitable for the situation and I would would think it would be most fair to allow the coach to determine if he wants a replay (or new series depending on distance) or just take points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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National Federation Discussion / Re: Weird substitution plays
« Last post by HLinNC on July 27, 2021, 05:06:13 AM »
1) They saw the "punt team" come onto the field.
2) Pre-arranged play by the HC.

I'm not saying this isn't some hinky BS pulled by the team but as to the letter of Illegal Sub under 3-7-3, I'm not sure it would meet the definitions of player and replaced player.  Wouldn't you rather use 9-6-4d and pop them with 15 for Illegal Participation for pretended sub anyway?  Given the circumstances that we see in the vid, and not being on the field to hear what was going on, I think it is actually the easier case to make under the rules.
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NCAA Discussion / Re: Fate of the Big 12
« Last post by bctgp on July 27, 2021, 12:40:11 AM »
Big 12 is toast in my humble opinion.  The 4 schools that left a decade or so ago seem to have made the right decision apparently. Unfortunate for the schools remaining after OU & UT leave as they are out in the cold.  Sad, but I think we all know it based on money and nothing more, including winning.
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