Author Topic: Crazy play...what ya got?  (Read 2151 times)

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Offline SCHSref

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Crazy play...what ya got?
« on: June 07, 2021, 01:43:19 PM »
4th and goal from R20. K lines up in a scrimmage kick formation. All is legal so far. K snaps the ball, ball is placed and legally kicked. R7 gets up on R56's shoulders and blocks the kick from going through the upright at the R16. Ruling?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 01:47:14 PM by SCHSref »
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2021, 01:54:21 PM »
4th and goal from R20. K lines up in a scrimmage kick formation. All is legal so far. K snaps the ball, ball is placed and legally kicked. R7 gets up on R56's shoulders and blocks the kick from going through the upright in the endzone. Ruling?
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline KWH

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2021, 02:06:19 PM »
In both cases I would have a flag on R7 for a Personal Foul (Advantage Gained Illegally) as per Rule 9-4-3e.


In both cases the enforcement is the same:
If the kick is successful,
K may choose to take the 3 points and have the penalty enforced on the subsequent kickoff or;
K may choose to accept the penalty and replay the down after enforcement (4th and goal on the R10)

If the kick is not successful,
K shall choose to have the foul enforced from the previous spot and replay the down (4th and goal on the R10)

8-4-3a, 8-4-3b, 9-4-3e and 10-5-1e


Also see CASEBOOK 8.4.3 SITUATION and 9.4.3 SITUATION E
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 02:40:33 PM by KWH »
SEE everything that you CALL, but;
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2021, 03:43:35 PM »
The author of the rule banning the Oregonian Flea-Flicker has again kicked it through the uprights !!

 ^good cRaZy ^good ^good ^good ^good  (5-man crew)

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 03:54:09 PM »
In both cases I would have a flag on R7 for a Personal Foul (Advantage Gained Illegally) as per Rule 9-4-3e.


In both cases the enforcement is the same:
If the kick is successful,
K may choose to take the 3 points and have the penalty enforced on the subsequent kickoff or;
K may choose to accept the penalty and replay the down after enforcement (4th and goal on the R10)

If the kick is not successful,
K shall choose to have the foul enforced from the previous spot and replay the down (4th and goal on the R10)

8-4-3a, 8-4-3b, 9-4-3e and 10-5-1e


Also see CASEBOOK 8.4.3 SITUATION and 9.4.3 SITUATION E

What about PSK?
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline KWH

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2021, 08:48:53 PM »
What about PSK?

Oh? There is that!


AFTER FURTHER REVIEW - SCHSref is correct:
This age old water bucket play now has PSK ramifications! because in both cases the play is unsuccessful.

Play 1:
Because the end of the kick is in R's end zone, the final result is a touchback, the basic spot is the succeeding spot for PSK enforcement, (The R-20 yard line)
As such, after PSK enforcement, it shall be R's ball 1/10 on the R/10

Play 2:
Because the end of the kick and the spot of the foul are both the R-16 yard line, the 16-yard line is the basic spot for PSK enforcement.
As such, after PSK enforcement, it shall be R's ball 1/10 on the R/8


The moral to the story is...
This is an excellent example as to why younger officials should ALWAYS approach and provide any and all "Wake up call"  information they can provide to the old grumpy white hats as PSK is rather new when you are the same age as a fossil.
Telling me I forked up the enforcement at the watering hole does no one any good!

Remember - PSK does not apply to successful field goals as per 2-16-2h(1)    (Good thing neither of these kicks were good)

2-16/2h(1), 9-4-3e, 10-4-5d
SEE everything that you CALL, but;
Don't CALL everything you SEE!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2021, 04:20:53 AM »
"IF YE ARE READY FOR EVERYTHING, YE WILL BE READY WHEN 'EVERYTHING' DO COME"

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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2021, 06:12:19 AM »
My semi-fossilized brain simply wonít accept that K wouldnít get another chance at the FG.  Itís a bedrock principle that a team shouldnít profit from an illegal act.

Penalize R HTD from the previous spot and replay the down.

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2021, 06:23:25 AM »
Let's huddle up and rethink this. If the result of the play is a touchback and the basic spot for penalty enforcement is the 20, R fouled behind the basic spot in the end zone. Should that not result in a safety?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2021, 08:02:58 AM »
 The premise for PSK was K is voluntarily giving up the ball.  In this scenario, K is attempting to score.  R's illegal act directly prevents that from occurring.  I keep going back to the PSK provision of K NOT being next to put the ball in play as I re-read PSK a half dozen times last night because my initial snap judgment was it shouldn't apply on this play. 



Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 08:33:20 AM »
The premise for PSK was K is voluntarily giving up the ball.  In this scenario, K is attempting to score.  R's illegal act directly prevents that from occurring.  I keep going back to the PSK provision of K NOT being next to put the ball in play as I re-read PSK a half dozen times last night because my initial snap judgment was it shouldn't apply on this play.
I feel your pain. I really really want to give K the option to mark this penalty off from the previous spot and give them another crack at it. Or even a first down. However, I canít make it work in the rule book. Iím afraid itís PSK all the way. Iím inclined to agree that in the first situation, R gets a safety because his foul is behind the basic spot in the end zone. So thatís at least something.


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Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 10:05:32 AM »
I find this super interesting, and am only commenting on the NFHS section because I believe it parallels the NCAA PSK rules (as far as I can tell, at least).

Where I'm getting hung up, is HLinNC's point about K putting the ball next into play.  They're only next to put the ball in play, as a direct result of a foul, and I agree with bama_stripes in that they are directly profiting from an illegal act.  So from an enforcement perspective, are they really next to put the ball into play?  That would not have been a given, because if they did this, and the kick still went through, they still wouldn't be next to put the ball into play (ensuing KO) and the foul would be declined.

Is this just a hole in the rule, where you can foul to stop a kicking score on 4th down and still obtain possession on downs, with only a marginal yardage penalty?

Same scenario, R74 slings K67 down to the ground by the facemask during the kick, and the kick misses.  Same result - turnover on downs?  I am wondering why teams, on long FGs, don't foul on purpose similar to the original scenario during the kick - there's no downside for R (they either get the ball if the kick is missed or blocked, with a small yardage penalty, and K has no recourse to rekick, or the penalty is declined if it is made).



 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:34:47 AM by dammitbobby »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2021, 10:20:42 AM »
The way I understand the "K will not be the next to put the ball in play" application is that we consider that BEFORE the penalty enforcement. At the end of the first play, the end result is a touchback and A will be next to put the ball in play. The fact that the penalty changes that is of no consequence in determining PSK. To do that would be redundant. We are using a PSK enforcement to determine if we can use a PSK enforcement...

Plus, I'm almost positive the intent of the K phrase is to describe the team that originally kicked the ball, instead of who will eventually kick the ball. Example: K punts, R fouls beyond the zone during the kick. R muffs, and K recovers. Is this PSK? No. Why? Because the team who kicked the ball
 ended up with it. But, when they next put the ball in play, they will not be K, they will be A.....
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:32:37 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 10:45:18 AM »
I find this super interesting, and am only commenting on the NFHS section because I believe it parallels the NCAA PSK rules (as far as I can tell, at least)

Same scenario, R74 slings K67 down to the ground by the facemask during the kick, and the kick misses.  Same result - turnover on downs?  I am wondering why teams, on long FGs, don't foul on purpose similar to the original scenario during the kick - there's no downside for R (they either get the ball if the kick is missed or blocked, with a small yardage penalty, and K has no recourse to rekick, or the penalty is declined if it is made).

As described, your scenario could well be considered a Flagrant violation of any one of several scenarios described in 9-4-3 resulting in disqualification of the offending player, and any additional consequences that may be subsequently applied to the player, coach or school.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 10:53:05 AM »


Same scenario, R74 slings K67 down to the ground by the facemask during the kick, and the kick misses.  Same result - turnover on downs?  I am wondering why teams, on long FGs, don't foul on purpose similar to the original scenario during the kick - there's no downside for R (they either get the ball if the kick is missed or blocked, with a small yardage penalty, and K has no recourse to rekick, or the penalty is declined if it is made).

While the language makes this sound egregious, it's really no different than a hold, clip, or any other foul. If R fouls during the kick beyond the NZ, then yes, PSK applies. Same thing if it happens on a punt..

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 11:43:54 AM »
Is anyone for 9-9-1  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew) ? "....A player shall not hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage."

IMHO,This would certainly fall under the trick play situation and coach should have clarified it with you in pre-game.
IF HE DID, MY RESPONSE WOULD BE : "COACH, that would be a foul under 9-9-1. I would then COULD award a score if I felt the kick was going to be good and tack the penalty onto the ensuing kickoff."

IF HE DIDN'T, MY RESPONSE WOULD BE :  ^flag "This unfair act has prevented a score. I'm applying rule 9-9-1 and scoring the field goal  ^good "

TO THE "EXCITED" COACH "COACH, if you had explained that to me in pre-game, I would have explained it to you THEN and prevented this foul.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2021, 11:53:02 AM »
This is an interesting question.   I don't have a NFHS rulebook but I did look it up in the NCAA book.   PSK only applies to fouls committed before the kick ends.   If the touching ends the kick then PSK enforcement does not apply.

I was also wondering why this is a PF and not unsportsmanlike conduct.  Intentionally breaking a rule is not a PF.  Does that matter in the penalty enforcement?

I would probably be wrong, but I am flagging R with unsportsmanlike conduct, half the distance and in NCAA 1st and goal from the 10.  In NFHS it would be 4th and goal from the 10.

Am I completely wrong?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 12:10:19 PM »
This is an interesting question.   I don't have a NFHS rulebook but I did look it up in the NCAA book.   PSK only applies to fouls committed before the kick ends.   If the touching ends the kick then PSK enforcement does not apply.

I was also wondering why this is a PF and not unsportsmanlike conduct.  Intentionally breaking a rule is not a PF.  Does that matter in the penalty enforcement?

I would probably be wrong, but I am flagging R with unsportsmanlike conduct, half the distance and in NCAA 1st and goal from the 10.  In NFHS it would be 4th and goal from the 10.

Am I completely wrong?

In NFHS, touching does not end the kick. The kick doesn't end until it's possessed or becomes dead by rule.

I vote for Ralph's solution.. give K 3 points, and let the band play on..

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 12:14:30 PM »
This is an interesting question.   I don't have a NFHS rulebook but I did look it up in the NCAA book.   PSK only applies to fouls committed before the kick ends.   If the touching ends the kick then PSK enforcement does not apply.

I was also wondering why this is a PF and not unsportsmanlike conduct.  Intentionally breaking a rule is not a PF.  Does that matter in the penalty enforcement?

I would probably be wrong, but I am flagging R with unsportsmanlike conduct, half the distance and in NCAA 1st and goal from the 10.  In NFHS it would be 4th and goal from the 10.

Am I completely wrong?

What is the rationale for this?  Not necessarily disagreeing I just don't see where that determination can be made.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 01:13:39 PM »
4th and goal from R20. K lines up in a scrimmage kick formation. All is legal so far. K snaps the ball, ball is placed and legally kicked. R7 gets up on R56's shoulders and blocks the kick from going through the upright at the R16. Ruling?

This is 9-4-3-e (No player shall position himself on the shoulders or body of a teammate or opponent to gain an advantage) and either 9-9-1 or 9-9-5 (Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee, tends to make a travesty of the game). As a result, if I am the referee, I can rule that the leaping of one player onto the back of a teammate is an unfair act, and/or makes a travesty of the game, and enforce any penalty I consider equitable. If the kick was likely to score, I would award K 3 points. If not, K gets the ball 4th and goal from the R20 and they get another down.

Offline Covid 22

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 01:18:27 PM »
That's a great question.   The rationale is that there is no way that I am giving PSK enforcement for such a gross violation of the rules.   I think the block in the end zone is easily defensible.   If the coach were to question the other, I would tell him that by rule that was not a PSK foul and leave it to him to prove me wrong if he had the guts to take that to a higher level.   

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2021, 01:35:40 PM »
I 100% agree with you, I would not enforce this as PSK.  I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a philosophy or something.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2021, 02:27:14 PM »
This is an interesting question.   I don't have a NFHS rulebook but I did look it up in the NCAA book.   PSK only applies to fouls committed before the kick ends.   If the touching ends the kick then PSK enforcement does not apply.

I was also wondering why this is a PF and not unsportsmanlike conduct.  Intentionally breaking a rule is not a PF.  Does that matter in the penalty enforcement?

I would probably be wrong, but I am flagging R with unsportsmanlike conduct, half the distance and in NCAA 1st and goal from the 10.  In NFHS it would be 4th and goal from the 10.

Am I completely wrong?

Sorry to slightly hijack NFHS discussion, but in NCAA (as in NFHS and NFL) a kick stays a kick until it becomes dead or a player possesses it. NCAA solves the original problem by defining the penalty for this particular foul to be enforced from the previous spot so PSK does not apply (rule 9-1-11, 15 yards and auto 1st - in NCAA PSK only applies to fouls without an enforcement spot in the penalty statement, ie. basic spot fouls). So it would be 1/10@R-10, no need to use USCs or God Rules.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2021, 04:39:24 PM »
Ralph, considering illegal participation and illegal sub at the snap are not included in PSK, perhaps this scenario should be added to those "exceptions" or add something into Rule 8 about an illegal act during an attempted scoring kick is not enforced under PSK.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Crazy play...what ya got?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2021, 04:20:37 AM »
This is an interesting question.   I don't have a NFHS rulebook but I did look it up in the NCAA book.   PSK only applies to fouls committed before the kick ends.   If the touching ends the kick then PSK enforcement does not apply.

I was also wondering why this is a PF and not unsportsmanlike conduct.  Intentionally breaking a rule is not a PF.  Does that matter in the penalty enforcement?

I would probably be wrong, but I am flagging R with unsportsmanlike conduct, half the distance and in NCAA 1st and goal from the 10.  In NFHS it would be 4th and goal from the 10.

Am I completely wrong?
USC is a succeeding spot foul, while PF is not.