Author Topic: S/B Quiz 3  (Read 2400 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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S/B Quiz 3
« on: June 25, 2021, 09:44:12 AM »
OK, I confess. I had to check my rule book on a couple of these, to verify my understanding. I verified "my" understanding, but that may not mean I am correct. Check me.
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1. 4/3 @ A-40. A90’s punt is shanked and lands at the A-45 and B21 touches the ball and it rebounds back to the A-38. A44 recovers and is downed immediately.
RULING:  A, 1/10, A-38, snap (25).
When the ball is touched by Team B after a legal scrimmage kick has crossed the NZ, all players are eligible to touch/catch/recover the ball. Since the kicked ball had crossed the NZ, the original series is broken, and a new series is awarded to the team in legal possession when the down is over. Due to the legal kick down, the play clock is set to 25, and will start on the referee’s signal. The game clock will start on the snap.


2. 4/10 @ A-30. Team A’s untouched punt or field goal attempt goes beyond the neutral zone in flight to the A-32, is blown back by the wind and first touches the ground at the A-28 where A44 recovers the ball. A44 runs to the A-42 where he is tackled.
RULING: A, 1/10, A-42, snap (25).
A ball loose from a legal scrimmage kick has not crossed the NZ until touches the ground, a player, or an official beyond the NZ. In this case, the kicked ball never crossed the NZ; thus, all players are eligible to touch/catch/recover the ball, and advance it. The series was not broken during the down; thus, Team A earns a new series at the end of the down, having advanced the ball beyond the LTG. Due to the legal kick down, the play clock is set to 25, and will start on the referee’s signal. The game clock will start on the snap.

 
3. 4/10 @ A-5. A90’s punt from behind A’s goal line crosses the neutral zone and lands at the A-11. The ball strikes B44 at the A-12 and rebounds back across Team A’s goal line, where A32 recovers.
RULING: Safety, 2 points for B. A, Free Kick, A-20, Free Kick Timing (25).
Impetus for the kick being declared dead behind A’s goal line is from the kick. Having simply been touched (no possession, batting, or kicking) by B44 does not change the impetus. Thus, the natural result of the down is a safety, 2 points for Team B, with a Free Kick by Team A at the A-20 to follow. The down statement does not indicate if A32 was “down” or still on his feet when he recovered the ball. However, since the legally kicked ball had crossed the NZ, the ball would have become dead at that spot when any Team A player recovered the ball, regardless if that player was “down” or on his feet.


4. Team A is offside on its free kick and B17 catches the ball at his 15-yard line. B17 returns the ball to his 45-yard line where he fumbles. A67 recovers at the B-47 and runs to the B-35 where he fumbles. B20 then recovers while downed at the B-38.
RULING:  B, 1/10, B-42, snap (25).
Fouls by Team A during a free kick may be enforced at the previous spot (with the down repeated), or at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to Team B (even if there are multiple changes of team possession during the down). Although B may penalize at the previous spot and repeat the kickoff, that option is highly unlikely to be elected.


5. Late in the game, Team A attempts an on-side kick from the A-35. As the kick is rolling, A8 touches the ball at the A-44 and then A10 recovers the kick at the A-46. A8 was offside on the play and B21 blocked an opponent below the waist after the touch by A8 and before the recovery by A10.
RULING:  A, Free Kick, A-35, Free Kick timing (25).
A’s offside foul and B’s illegal block below the waist foul offset and the down is repeated. There is no opportunity for the “clean hands” provision, because “clean hands” requires there be a change of team possession during the down. Since Team B was never in team possession during the down, they cannot invoke this provision. The offsetting fouls obviates the illegal touching violation
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 6. Late in the game with the score tied, Team A lines up to free kick from the A-35. Kicker A10 places the ball down at the right hash for an apparent onside kick. After the Referee’s ready-for-play signal, A10 approaches the ball and then picks up the ball runs to the left hash at the A-35, places the ball down and quickly kicks the ball.
RULING:  Insufficient Information.
Per AR 6-1-2-VIII, this is a LIVE BALL foul. Truthfully, we don't have a "name" for this foul identified in the rules. But, I would go with "Illegal Kick," even though all other "illegal kicks" are dead-ball fouls, or  fouls that cause the ball to become dead.
Option A: A, Free Kick, A-30, Free Kick Rules (25). Penalize at the previous spot and repeat the down.
Option B: If the ball belongs to Team B at the dead-ball spot, they may enforce the penalty at the dead-ball spot.


7. Late in the game with the score tied, Team A attempts an on-side kick from the A-35. The kick goes out of bounds untouched by Team B at the A-47. A10 illegally touched the kick at the A-44.
RULING: B, 1/10, A-42, snap (25).
Team B has three options:
1)   Penalize the Illegal Kick OB at the previous spot and repeat the down.
2)   Decline the penalty and invoke the illegal touching privilege, and take the ball for a new series at the A-44.
3)   Penalize the Illegal Kick OB at the spot where the dead-ball belongs them (A-47). The 5-yard penalty would place the ball at the A-42, 1/10. This is the obvious choice.
Due to the completion of the penalty, the play clock is set to 25, and will start on the referee’s signal. The game clock will start on the snap.


8. Free Kick from the A-35. A10 is offside and the airborne kick is touched inbounds by B80 at the B-20 and goes out of bounds at the B-25.
RULING:  B, 1/10, B-30, Snap (25).
Team B can have the 5-yard penalty for the offside foul enforced at the previous spot and repeat the down (not likely), or can enforce that penalty at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to Team B (B-25), which would place the ball at the B-30, 1/10. Yes, Team B received the benefit of the ball going OB in advance of the spot where it was touched by B80, but that is just the “fortune of war.”


Offline peterparsons

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2021, 10:50:03 AM »
Q.6 is an interesting one as the 2020 book has a penalty statement added after 6-1-2-a (which says this is a dead ball foul for an Illegal Kick) but the AR is unchanged from 2019. I wonder if this was an oversight.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2021, 01:19:02 PM »
Q.6 is an interesting one as the 2020 book has a penalty statement added after 6-1-2-a (which says this is a dead ball foul for an Illegal Kick) but the AR is unchanged from 2019. I wonder if this was an oversight.

Very possible. But, as I recall, that editorial change was in response to the 'bounce kicks' that were attempted in 2019. There was confusion if those were live-ball fouls or dead-ball fouls. So, they made them clearly dead-ball fouls with this editorial change. But, you are correct in that it created a conflict with AR 6-1-2-VIII. Personally, I'll follow the AR, and let the 'relocated' kickoff point be a live-ball foul (if it ever happens).

 

Offline peterparsons

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 02:20:58 PM »
The question is written in a way that suggests that what happens to the ball after it's been kicked is not relevant, which leads me to conclude that whoever wrote it is treating this as a dead ball foul. It will be interesting to see the official answer.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 02:47:49 PM »
The question is written in a way that suggests that what happens to the ball after it's been kicked is not relevant, which leads me to conclude that whoever wrote it is treating this as a dead ball foul. It will be interesting to see the official answer.

I concur, which is why I said there was insufficient information. But, the AR is very clear. So, Shaw will have to declare the AR null and void, change the AR, or declare that the question was not well written, and the AR stands as written.
I'll put my money on an answer from S/B that indicates it should be a dead-ball foul, despite the AR, with no follow-up as to the fate of the AR (at least not until 2022, when it might disappear without fanfare). I would not follow a quiz answer. I would hang my hat on the AR, and let them explain to world why we should have ruled it to be a dead-ball foul. Thankfully for everybody, I suppose, I won't be in a position to make this call on their stage, so they won't have to be concerned with any call(s) I might (or might not) make. Also thankfully, this is so highly NOT likely to happen, it is really a moot issue. (But, then, I never thought I'd see a bounce kick, either.)

Offline JasonTX

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 03:14:09 PM »
Question 4:  I have B 1/10 at the B-43, according to my calculator, 5 yards from the B-38 gets me to 43.

Question 6:  I have the 2021 rule book and AR 6-1-2 VIII has been edited.  Live Ball Foul has been replaced with Dead Ball Foul and is shaded blue to indicate it was changed for this year.  In 2020 you had "Live ball foul.  Five yard penalty from the previous spot and re-kick.  Had Team B recovered...yada, yada, yada"

In 2021 Live Ball Foul has been replaced with, " Dead ball foul.  Five yard penalty from the previous spot".   The part about Team B recovering is no longer an option.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 03:34:35 PM by JasonTX »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 04:42:44 PM »
Question 4:  I have B 1/10 at the B-43, according to my calculator, 5 yards from the B-38 gets me to 43.

Question 6:  I have the 2021 rule book and AR 6-1-2 VIII has been edited.  Live Ball Foul has been replaced with Dead Ball Foul and is shaded blue to indicate it was changed for this year.  In 2020 you had "Live ball foul.  Five yard penalty from the previous spot and re-kick.  Had Team B recovered...yada, yada, yada"

In 2021 Live Ball Foul has been replaced with, " Dead ball foul.  Five yard penalty from the previous spot".   The part about Team B recovering is no longer an option.

Well, there you go. Those of us not privvy to the 2021 book are looking foolish. Hey, Mister! How can I get one of those things?  :)

Edit: And my degree is in Architecture, not math…😳
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 06:48:41 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline JasonTX

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 04:48:53 PM »
Well, there you go. Those of us not privvy to the 2021 book are looking foolish. Hey, Mister! How can I get one of those things?  :)

Mine came from CFO.  As for TASO,  we were told that the company who will be packing and shipping to members has the books and shipping to members was to start this week.  You should receive the book, ID card, and a commemorative flipping coin.

Offline copedaddy

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 08:26:37 PM »
I downloaded the free PDF today.

Offline copedaddy

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2021, 08:34:14 PM »
My bad, I thought it was the 2021, but its not. Damn

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2021, 06:53:35 AM »
Very possible. But, as I recall, that editorial change was in response to the 'bounce kicks' that were attempted in 2019. There was confusion if those were live-ball fouls or dead-ball fouls. So, they made them clearly dead-ball fouls with this editorial change. But, you are correct in that it created a conflict with AR 6-1-2-VIII. Personally, I'll follow the AR, and let the 'relocated' kickoff point be a live-ball foul (if it ever happens).

I found the bulletin (No. 2, 10/19) from 2019 that made the bounce kick a dead-ball foul (to quickly nip this attempted tactic in the bud before it became epidemic). The AR that is referenced in the bulletin is AR 6-1-2-I, which simply attached this type of action to the list of "illegal kicks," and clarified that it is a dead-ball foul. However, that AR did not address the action of relocating the kickoff point. That is AR 6-1-2-VIII, which left that action as a live-ball foul. Obviously, Shaw (or the Rules Committee) has decided - wisely - to now make this a dead-ball foul, as well.

Workin' on getting  the 2021 rule book. Might be helpful...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 07:11:38 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2021, 10:56:38 AM »
Number 7 - in their answers, Shaw/Blandino correctly point out that there are actually four options - the fourth being that Team may take the ball 30 yards from the previous spot, 1/10. Which, in this instance, they would never do. We should probably not even offer it as an option. But, indeed, it is an option.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2021, 09:25:24 AM »
I downloaded the free PDF today.

Can you share the link?  Or the actual pdf?

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: S/B Quiz 3
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2021, 12:35:34 PM »
Any time we have a KOB, there are really only two options: keep the ball or rekick. 99% of the time they’re going to want to keep the ball. Now, there are many times where we have to determine WHERE they will want to keep the ball, but that shouldn’t be up to the coach. While it’s important for us to know all available options and why a spot is or is not a valid choice, we should only tell the coach the best one. Take this play. We’re never going to tell the coach he can take the ball 30 yards from the restraining line. We’re never going to tell the coach he can take illegal touching spot. We’re certainly never going to tell him he can decline the penalty all together and take the dead ball spot. So all we need to do is tell him we’re going to enforce the five yard penalty from the dead ball spot and it’s going to be his ball at the 42. If he wants to rekick, he can come to that conclusion on his own.

Now you’ll probably have to explain why we can’t enforce the penalty from the illegal touching spot, but that’s a different issue. The point is, when you have a KOB, find the best option for Team B and put the ball down and keep the game moving.