Author Topic: Carryover penalty into OT  (Read 14751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2010, 12:33:59 PM »
Couple observations:

A) Announcers were calling for a UR on a defender who was blocked onto a tackler. Can't these guys take a level I clinic to get a clue?

B) I think Tennessee screwed up the options on the coin toss. They elected defence, which put the ball into the opposition hands at the 12.5 yard line. Had they taken offence, they woulda been at the 40, but the opposition at the 25 on the following play.

C) I thought once a play happened, the previous play couldn't be reviewed?

Even announcers know about being blocked into.  I just think they were not seeing it

Tenn was in trouble any way they went on the toss.  Start from the 40 and you might not even get a FG which makes it easier for your opponent

The crew was apparently buzzed before the snap and could not prevent it from getting off.  That does happen from time to time  Does not matter when they get it stopped just when they were buzzed

Grant - AR

  • Guest
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2010, 01:32:05 PM »
A) Announcers were calling for a UR on a defender who was blocked onto a tackler. Can't these guys take a level I clinic to get a clue?

After the game was over and they were replaying the final sequences in regulation, one of the announcers kept griping about the "late hit".  One of the other announcers, very subtly, said the Tennessee player was helped by #?? from NC.  It was almost like he didn't want to bring it up and challenge the other announcer, but it needed to be said and reiterated. 

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2010, 01:43:39 PM »
Reviewable   12-3-5-a

Got it, Mike. Thx. Reading 12-3-5a literally, let's take this comedy of errors a step farther. I think the call on the field was ILS. That said, replay got the clock right, but missed the 12 on the field. The ILS should have been overruled and made into ILP. Looks to me like the deer-in-the-headlights look extended into the replay booth.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2010, 01:46:04 PM »
There may be some confusion here. Apparently at least 1 conference IT guide says that if Illeg Sub is called IR cannot be called to determine if it should have been illegal participation. 

Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2010, 01:51:37 PM »
I just read Dave Parry's comments on the issue. You are right. Confusion reigns galore! That's why I asked if it was reviewable. I didn't think so, but wasn't certain.

And since when do the conferences determine what is reviewable and what is not?  Hmmm...........
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:54:17 PM by Rulesman »
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8762
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-265
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 07:37:24 AM »
Not surprisingly, the Tenn coach wanted the U to get over the ball during the mass confusion play.  And then admits he was not going to sub anyway!!!!   
http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2010/dec/31/head-official-backs-refs-for-music-city/

Head official backs refs for Music City
By Andrew Gribble
NASHVILLE - By the book, Thursday night's Music City Bowl officials got all the controversial calls at the end of regulation right, national coordinator of officials David Parry said Friday.

The book, however, may be reworked as soon as February when the NCAA rules committee convenes for its annual meetings. The illegal substitution penalty that ultimately aided North Carolina and crushed Tennessee in the waning moments of regulation in the Tar Heels' 30-27, double-overtime win at LP Field likely will be a hot topic and could provide potential grounds for the NCAA to take a page out of the NFL's rulebook, Parry said.

"That play will be shown and discussed," Parry, a former Big Ten official, said in a phone interview with the News Sentinel.

"It seems a little awkward that a team can commit a foul and really they gained an advantage."

Tar Heels quarterback T.J. Yates would not have spiked the ball in time if he waited for a mixture of extra offensive players and special teamers to get off the field in the frantic moments following Shaun Draughn's 7-yard run, which left 13 seconds on the clock. He ignored the flurry of players, including a kicker and holder positioned behind him, and downed the ball with one second to spare, prompting a 5-yard penalty for illegal substitution but not signaling the end of the game.

In the NFL, 10 seconds are run off the clock when the offense commits a penalty in the game's final two minutes as a means to prevent teams from doing what North Carolina did Thursday: gain an extra timeout by stopping the clock with its own infraction.

The college game, as Tar Heels coach Butch Davis said Thursday, has a number of different rules than the NFL, and that just so happened to be one of them.

"The play, as it was officiated, was officiated correctly," Parry said.

That play, of course, required a second look.

Referee Dennis Lipski, the head official of the Big Ten crew selected for the game, originally announced the game was over because the clock initially hit zero after Yates' spike. A replay booth review, which Lipski announced would be undertaken after UT players and coaches had already streamed onto the field, correctly concluded that one second remained when the ball hit the ground, allowing the Tar Heels to run one more play.

According to Section 1, Article 3B in the 2009-10 NCAA book of rules and interpretations, the game is ended and the score is final when the referee so declares.

Lipski's words, Parry said, weren't an end-all, be-all declaration. It was nothing more than lip service.

"Just the fact that he waves his arm and the game is over usually means the game is over," Parry said. "But there can be extenuating circumstances usually that come through replay that can correct that."

Determining whether North Carolina committed an illegal substitution penalty, which merits a 5-yard loss, or an illegal participation penalty, which sets the guilty team 15 yards back from the previous line of scrimmage, also was properly officiated, Parry said.

The difference between the two penalties centers on if the extra players were attempting to leave the field rather than actually participating in the play, Parry said.

When UT had 13 players on the field in the final moments of its equally heartbreaking loss at LSU in October, it was flagged for illegal participation.

Much like after the LSU game, UT coach Derek Dooley expressed disappointment over his defense not receiving ample time to respond to the offense's substitutions.

"When they ran guys on the field, the field-goal unit, the rule states that the umpire should step over the ball and allow a substitution to happen," Dooley said. "I don't know. I guess there wasn't enough time to do that."

Dooley said UT did not plan to respond with substitutes because "we had our call ready. We were ready to play."

Parry said that an umpire will typically move away from the ball if the center is ready to snap and the defense indicates it's not going to adjust its on-field personnel.

In an e-mail, Big Ten Assistant Commissioner of Communications Scott Chipman said the conference "does not comment on judgment calls," which has been standard protocol for it over the years.

"What I saw," Parry said, "was done correctly."


Offline Rulesman

  • Past Keeper of the Keys
  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +65535/-2
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: Carryover penalty into OT
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 09:57:13 AM »
..."What I saw," Parry said, "was done correctly."
...although completely ignoring the fact there were 12 in the formation at the snap. Guess he did not see the whole play.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi