Safety in Sugar Bowl (video link below)

[FLBJ]

No rule references. Opinions if you like but basically just curious, yes/no.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5990119

[fencewire]

It goes against everything you are ever taught, but there are times that it is better to "give up" rather than fight for extra on the football field.

This was one of those times...

[chymechowder]

agreed. but I wonder if this opens the door for an angleshot by the defense: drive the runner into the endzone, then let him go, figuring that you can "re-tackle" him there.

[Rav4]

IMHO he never fully regained his balance after being driven backwards into the EZ.  He had separation but I would not have ruled a safety.

[AlUpstateNY]

Great Mechanics, the Referee and Wing, who had the play coverted from opposite directions, immediately got together, agreed on what they saw and made a quick unambiguous, non-hesitant decision, and walked away.  Just the way it's supposed to happen.  It was their call, and they made it.

[6310 Forever]

Does anyone remember the reverse angle replay they showed?  The Line Judge CLEARLY comes onto the field at the 2-yard line with his hand raised to start the play clock.  He felt forward progress had been established and signalled it.  Why he didn't step up and admit it is sad.  Also, the TD called back because the TE's wrist hit the ground?  The exact same play (w/o the TD) took place in the Boise State / Va. Tech game Labor Day night.  It showed up on the CFO Accountability tape as a correct call.  I believe the NCAA declared shortly thereafter that the wrist is part of the hand and thus, the runner is not down when his wrist hits the ground.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The Line Judge CLEARLY comes onto the field at the 2-yard line with his hand raised to start the play clock.  He felt forward progress had been established and signalled it.  Why he didn't step up and admit it is sad. 

Got to agree with 6310 here and disagree with Al.  The official who should have participated and had a very clear and rock solid DB signal and spot at the 2 (the LJ) was not even part of the discussion.  That doesn't work for me.  The defense clearly put the runner into the EZ, and he clearly never had a real chance to get out.  My vote is FP at the 2.

[Welpe]

I also have progress at the 2.

[Etref]

Does not appear to be a safety to me. progress to the 2

[6310 Forever]

So, how should the guys have fixed it?  The LJ should have stepped up, obviously.  Absent of that, can the IRO get involved and let the R know we have an inadvertent signal?  If so, do they have to re-do the down? 

[TxGrayhat]

FP at the 2. Stopped at 2 driven into endzone by Defense. The fact he let him go after getting into the endzone shouldn't matter. however Just Curious would we taking the same stand if when the defender let him go he went 100 yards down the field and they rule Touch Down.    Somebody always comes up with a what if   lol.

[Welpe]

would we taking the same stand if when the defender let him go he went 100 yards down the field and they rule Touch Down.    

I certainly think so.  A ball carrier shouldn't get a second bite at the apple after his progress has been stopped.

[MrFbOfficial]

Rule 2 Section 8
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement
by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the
position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p;
Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R.
8-2-1-I-IV) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).


Rule 4 Section 1
Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar, when a ball carrier is out of bounds,
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).

[Curious]

Didn't think it was a safety last night; and still don't.

I haven't seen anything convincing to support the safety call on the forum - except for Al's lame argument.  Just because their mechanics were "great" and because they were "unambiguous.....and walked away", and because it "was their call and they made it", it doesn't make the call RIGHT.

"Good mechanics" (supposedly) simply put the officials in the best position to make the call; they can't account for poor judgement.

[elewis023]

FP at the 2. Stopped at 2 driven into endzone by Defense. The fact he let him go after getting into the endzone shouldn't matter. however Just Curious would we taking the same stand if when the defender let him go he went 100 yards down the field and they rule Touch Down.    Somebody always comes up with a what if   lol.

If you would give him a TD if he broke free from the second tackle, then you have to have a second progress spot.  Therefore, safety

[Welpe]

Are there any national or conference philosophies on runners breaking free after being driven back and allowing the play to continue?  It seems to me that being held and driven back 5 yards seems to statisfy the requirement of a runner being held so that his progress is stopped.  In other words, why isn't the ball already dead before the runner "breaks free"?  Treating it otherwise seems to give him more than one bite at the apple.

[Getting Fat]

I agree with Welpe, the play was over before he broke free.  Also, if the LJ was running in at the 2, did he blow a whistle to kill the play?

[6310 Forever]

If the LJ hand his hand up as I believe the video shows, that is as good as a whistle to kill the play.  An inadvertent signal = an inadvertent whistle. 

[110]

There was an ever-so-slight cap created, though. Camera angle may not give us what we need to make a good call. Given what I see, Forward progress concluded at the two-ish. Blown call?
What worries me is that you have two officials signalling the safety. That's the white-cap's signal only.

[TxSkyBolt]

There was an ever-so-slight cap created, though. Camera angle may not give us what we need to make a good call. Given what I see, Forward progress concluded at the two-ish. Blown call?
What worries me is that you have two officials signalling the safety. That's the white-cap's signal only.

Why is this the R's call.  The TD call is not (normally) the R's call and that also involves a goal line.  Who better to call the safety or TD than the wings?  I've never understood saying it's the Rs call.

Best regards,

Brad

[DallasLJ]

Why is this the R's call.  The TD call is not (normally) the R's call and that also involves a goal line.  Who better to call the safety or TD than the wings?  I've never understood saying it's the Rs call.

Best regards,

Brad

  R only call on sacks or punts where R is deep and wings are there.  Snap inside the 5 like that, safety is a wing call all the way.

[williebe]

  R only call on sacks or punts where R is deep and wings are there.  Snap inside the 5 like that, safety is a wing call all the way.

Totally agree with this.

[zebra99]

This is NEVER the R's call in this scenario just like U's don't signal TDs.  Looked to me as if he signalled after the wing official told him he was ruling safety.

[Diablo]

Not offering an opinion on the safety vs forward progress call in this game nor the Pinstripe Bowl salute.  But want to point out that it has been ~month since most of these officials have worked on a gridiron.  They are not in mid season form.  Like in any athletic endeavor, the participates' timing, concentration, and judgement must assuredly wain. 

Right or wrong, I'm sure they are doing the best they can under the circumstances.  And us arm chair zebras benefit from the high level of visibility of their efforts.   

[6310 Forever]

Good Crew Chief has to get the crew ready to work the ballgame.  Has to remind the guys to look where they're supposed to be looking and make the fouls called actually make a difference.  The guys who qualify for bowl games more than likely weren't pioneers during the season (that's why they're working the post season) so it's pretty much assumed they wouldn't start in the bowl game.  Not every plan works out, though. . . . .