Author Topic: Punt play...what ya got?  (Read 883 times)

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Offline SCHSref

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Punt play...what ya got?
« on: June 08, 2021, 01:50:12 PM »
4/10 from the K30. Formation is legal. K55 snaps the ball to K11 who muffs the snap. He picks it up and is under heavy pressure. K11 takes off running and kicks the ball at the K 31. R2 signals for the fair catch at the 50 and secures the ball. BJ blows the whistle. R's coach informs the LJ that he wants to free kick the ball at the spot of the fair catch.  Ruling?
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2021, 02:34:30 PM »
You can't fair catch an illegal kick, so R can't free kick at the spot. BJ has unintentionally committed an IW. However, because of the foul, He's off the hook. We have a foul by K at the 31. R can take the result of the play (their ball at the spot of the catch, where BJ blew it dead), or mark off 10 from the 31 and replay 4th down for K.

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2021, 09:15:04 PM »
Unless the BJ sees the flag and knows for sure what it was for there would be no way to avoid an IW.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2021, 12:00:13 AM »
Unless the BJ sees the flag and knows for sure what it was for there would be no way to avoid an IW.

I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball.  Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.

Online bama_stripes

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2021, 05:38:13 AM »
I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball.  Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.

I like this, and would be for incorporating this into NFHS rules.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2021, 06:12:42 AM »
Me too


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2021, 06:16:10 AM »
I think that's why NCAA makes this play an immediate dead ball.  Eliminates all of the bad things that happen after.
Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official  blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if itís beyond the nz? Is that how it works?


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Offline ncwingman

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2021, 06:54:14 AM »
Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official  blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if itís beyond the nz? Is that how it works?


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Yes. From NCAA Rule 2-16-c:

Quote
A scrimmage kick made when the kickerís entire body is beyond the neutral zone is an illegal kick and a live-ball foul that causes the ball to
become dead (Rule 6-3-10-c).

I would be willing to support a rule that makes it "legal" to fair catch an illegal kick (i.e., the ball becomes dead after the catch and all subsequent protections) but the follow up is not treated as a fair catch -- the illegal kick penalty takes precedence or the result of the play is essentially a fair catch.

I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2021, 06:59:19 AM »
Yes. From NCAA Rule 2-16-c:

I would be willing to support a rule that makes it "legal" to fair catch an illegal kick (i.e., the ball becomes dead after the catch and all subsequent protections) but the follow up is not treated as a fair catch -- the illegal kick penalty takes precedence or the result of the play is essentially a fair catch.

I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.
This makes sense. If that were the case then we could give R the option to free kick from the spot of the fair catch.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2021, 08:15:20 AM »
I believe the NCAA code has a laundry list of situations that differ depending when/where the foul occurred. Ours merely states : 2-24-9... When the ball is loose following an legal kick, it retains the same status as prior to an illegal kick.

My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2021, 08:25:28 AM »
Quote
I do not like the "live ball foul that causes the ball to become dead" aspect.

Would definitely have and effect on Fundamentals.  I agree but the Fed has already sort of stuck their head in the rabbit hole when they added the pop-up kick rule a while back.  Granted the whole timing and events are different than free kick vs. an illegal scrimmage kick.

As I've said for several years now- the NFHS hates exceptions, except when they don't.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2021, 08:30:53 AM »
I believe the NCAA code has a laundry list of situations that differ depending when/where the foul occurred. Ours merely states : 2-24-9... When the ball is loose following an legal kick, it retains the same status as prior to an illegal kick.

My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.

 I see your point. If we take the fair catch out of the posted situation, and say R catches the illegal kick and returns it for a TD, we certainly would not want A to benefit from their foul. R would deserve to decline the foul and keep the score

Offline bossman72

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2021, 08:48:05 AM »
Just to be clear, are you saying the covering official  blows it dead just as soon as the kicker kicks it if itís beyond the nz? Is that how it works?


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Yep.  5 yards previous spot and loss of down.

I don't think NFHS would get on board because that would violate the football fundamental that no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2021, 08:49:38 AM »
Yep.  5 yards previous spot and loss of down.

I don't think NFHS would get on board because that would violate the football fundamental that no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

I agree, except as has already been mentioned, we fell off that cliff with the pop-up kick..

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2021, 09:32:35 AM »
I believe the NCAA code has a laundry list of situations that differ depending when/where the foul occurred. Ours merely states : 2-24-9... When the ball is loose following an legal kick, it retains the same status as prior to an illegal kick.

My interp of the post is : this was a running play prior to the illegal kick. The loose ball would be treated as a fumble, with B gaining possession at the spot of the recovery. The BJ shouldn't be discredited with an IW as the B player had not made any attempt to advance - sorta' like taking a knee. This would be a spot foul as it occurred beyond the LOS. If we killed an IK the minute it occurred, B would lose the chance of recovering a fumble if then illegally kick by A.

I pretty much just agree.

From a practical end of things, it's very difficult for the BJ *and* punt returner to know if the scrambling kicker was over the LOS. If the B player signals for a fair catch when they could reasonably believe that it was a legal kick, then you shouldn't penalize B by not affording them the protections due from a fair catch *nor* treating killing the play as an IW. The play ends after R gains possession after the fair catch signal, and then sort out later if they fair caught a kick or just recovered a "fumble" off a players foot.

If B doesn't signal for a fair catch, then we have an illegal kick and the result of the play follows as normal.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2021, 03:53:50 PM »
HUMP DAY QUIZ :An illegal kick is fair caught with the free kick option....How so  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2021, 04:56:42 PM »
HUMP DAY QUIZ :An illegal kick is fair caught with the free kick option....How so  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew)
Hang onÖ. Still scratching my headÖ.


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Offline Ump33

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2021, 05:43:03 PM »
HUMP DAY QUIZ :An illegal kick is fair caught with the free kick option....How so  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-man crew)
Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 05:45:21 PM by Ump33 »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2021, 06:52:07 PM »
Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.
Ya' nailed it, UMP!!! aWaRd

Offline KWH

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2021, 11:51:45 PM »
I agree, except as has already been mentioned, we fell off that cliff with the pop-up kick..

A Pop-up kick, is by definition a Free-Kick Infraction.
A Free Kick infraction is a Dead Ball Foul.
So...........
When a pop up kick occurs, the ball, by Rule, never became live.

Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.

Thas my story and Im stiking to it...  :sTiR:
SEE everything that you CALL, but;
Don't CALL everything you SEE!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2021, 04:56:35 AM »
Il a legal scrimmage kick is blocked (or some how remains in or behind the NZ) and the kick has not touched the ground when K illegally kicks the ball, the status of the ball is still a kick and could meet the requirement of a fair catch.
I learned this the hard way, by blowing a call the year after we changed the rule pi1eOn ...

(1) 3rd & 10 @ A's 5;
(2) A/K tries to quick kick;
(3) punt is blocked;
(4) the kicker's soccer skills returned and he illegally kicked the loose ball in the end zone  ^flag ;
(5)the ball sailed OOB @ A's 8;
(6)  thinking old rule and treating IK as a fumble, I ruled safety and gave no choice :o ;
(7) shortly thereafter I realized it should have been treated as a kick;
(8) B/R could have taken the ball at A/K's 8 if declined  :-[ .

There are game situations where 1st & goal @ 8 could be a better choice than 2 points and receiving a free kick. I didn't give them any.

Our rule change was prompted by a play occurring in the mid-west...

(1) A throws a forward pass;
(2) B-2, with great soccer skills, leaped and kicked the airborne pass to the ground for IK  ^flag;
(3) officials ruled incomplete pass & IK - common sense  8] ;
(4) common sense ain't always right :!# - shoulda' been treated as a fumble (ole' rule)  ::) ;
(5) new rule now makes common sense.

[/LESSON LEARNED :
HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES..HUMANS LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES...AND DON'T MAKE THE SAME ONES AGAIN.
b]

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2021, 06:31:23 AM »
A Pop-up kick, is by definition a Free-Kick Infraction.
A Free Kick infraction is a Dead Ball Foul.
So...........
When a pop up kick occurs, the ball, by Rule, never became live.

Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.

Thas my story and Im stiking to it...  :sTiR:
I get it. But still, the foul doesnít happen until the ball is kicked , and the down begins when the ball is snapped or kicked. So we have in essence done what you just scolded Ralph not to do. But Iím not mad.


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Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 06:37:34 AM »
In response to Ralphs illegally kicked kick; R would have the ball 1st and goal from the 4 after a half the distance penalty.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 06:41:53 AM »
In response to Ralphs illegally kicked kick; R would have the ball 1st and goal from the 4 after a half the distance penalty.
Nope. End of play was at the 8. Penalty happened in K end zone. Result of play is Rís ball at the 8. If R accepts the penalty the result is safety. If R DECLINES the penalty we not marking off anything. Itís R ball at 8. At the time of Ralphís game. Remember, heís old as Moses. 


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« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 06:45:31 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Punt play...what ya got?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 06:43:24 AM »
Quote
Therefore, Fundament IX (1) is not applicable as this fundamental only deals with Fouls while the ball is live.

That's why I said that the Fed had begun "to stick their head in the rabbit hole".   The pop up kick is a play, where in theory, we must let the ball become live, even though legally dead, and then quickly rule it dead if need be.  I've yet to see one in person.  I guess our region's kickers are not that accomplished