Author Topic: (Yet another) dumb free kick question  (Read 1834 times)

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Online dammitbobby

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(Yet another) dumb free kick question
« on: November 08, 2020, 09:59:18 PM »
Team A does onside kick, with illegal touching by A3, at the A49.  Ball is recovered by B7 at the B49, who advances it to the B44, where it is fumbled, and recovered at the A38 by A17.  During the return, prior to the fumble, B20 is flagged for targeting at the A44.

What I am not getting, is that the correct answer is :
-B will keep the ball
1/10 from B39
-B20 is DQ'd (assuming it was flagrant)
-Clock starts on snap

6-1-3-c:  If there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team, or if there are offsetting fouls, the illegal touching privilege is canceled (A.R. 6-1-3-I).

What I am not understanding, is how B is keeping the ball?  Without the foul, or if A declines it,  they (B) would have the ball at the spot of illegal touching, A49, even though A possessed it last. But if A accepts the targeting foul, the illegal touching goes away.  So wouldn't A keep the ball if they accept the penalty?

Unless I am missing something blatantly obvious, is there any scenario here, where A does keep the ball, or we rekick?

I feel like I am either overthinking this or missing something really obvious.

Offline Kalle

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 01:02:24 AM »
OK, so we have an illegal touching violation during a kick and then a foul during a running play. Remember that we first deal with the foul, and only if the penalty is declined, the violation comes into play. Also remember that the team cannot (usually) choose the enforcement spot for penalties, it is specified by the rule.

1. Team A accepts the penalty for a foul during a running play. This is enforced from the basic spot, which is the end of the run (B-44? Should this be A-44 based on the recovery location and the provided "correct" answer?), as it is behind the spot of the foul (A-44). Team B ball, 1/10 at B-29.

2. Team A declines the penalty. Team B can now elect to take the ball at the spot of the illegal touching. Team B ball, 1/10 at A-49.

3. Team A declines the penalty. Team B can now elect to decline the illegal touching violation. Team A ball, 1/10 at A-38.

So yes, there is a scenario where team A will keep the ball, but in real life it will not happen (I cannot think of any situation where it would make strategic sense for team B to let team A have the ball).

Let's take an easier situation with just a running play.

1/10 at A-30. A22 runs to B-30 where he fumbles. B99 recovers the fumble while grounded at B-35. During the run by A22 A88 commits a blindside block foul at A-40. Team B must now decline the penalty and take the ball at B-35. If they accept the penalty it will be enforced from the spot of the foul resulting in team A ball, 1/15 at A-25.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 04:47:00 AM »
Team A does onside kick, with illegal touching by A3, at the A49.  Ball is recovered by B7 at the B49, who advances it to the B44, where it is fumbled, and recovered at the A38 by A17.  During the return, prior to the fumble, B20 is flagged for targeting at the A44.

What I am not getting, is that the correct answer is :
-B will keep the ball
1/10 from B39
-B20 is DQ'd (assuming it was flagrant)
-Clock starts on snap

6-1-3-c:  If there is an accepted penalty for a live-ball foul by either team, or if there are offsetting fouls, the illegal touching privilege is canceled (A.R. 6-1-3-I).

What I am not understanding, is how B is keeping the ball?  Without the foul, or if A declines it,  they (B) would have the ball at the spot of illegal touching, A49, even though A possessed it last. But if A accepts the targeting foul, the illegal touching goes away.  So wouldn't A keep the ball if they accept the penalty?

Unless I am missing something blatantly obvious, is there any scenario here, where A does keep the ball, or we rekick?

I feel like I am either overthinking this or missing something really obvious.

Since B was in possession when the foul occurred, acceptance of the penalty requires that the team in possession (B) retain possession. That’s what you were missing.

Online Etref

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 07:51:02 AM »
Team A does onside kick, with illegal touching by A3, at the A49.  Ball is recovered by B7 at the B49, who advances it to the B44, where it is fumbled, and recovered at the A38 by A17.  During the return, prior to the fumble, B20 is flagged for targeting at the A44.


-B20 is DQ'd (assuming it was flagrant)





Targeting does not include “ flagrant”

If it is in fact TGT. Disqualify
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Online dammitbobby

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2020, 08:00:41 AM »

Targeting does not include “ flagrant”

If it is in fact TGT. Disqualify

The UIL Exception does.  It's not an automatic disqualification, only if it is the second one, or is flagrant.

PENALTY—15 yards. For dead-ball fouls, 15 yards from the succeeding spot. Automatic first down for fouls by Team B if not in conflict with other
rules. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified. A subsequent targeting foul committed by the same player in the game requires the player to be
disqualified. Disqualification is for remainder of the game only. Local school districts and/or UIL District Committees may apply additional
disciplinary action.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2020, 10:18:03 AM »
But, let’s all understand what ‘flagrant’ means with respect to the UIL exception. It doesn’t necessarily mean it was any more vicious or malicious than other targeting action; only that the officials could positively determine all of the conditions of targeting were clearly present (which are different for 9-1-3 vs. 9-1-4). If the crew determines all conditions were present, then, per UIL, we classify this as a ‘flagrant targeting,’ which includes the disqualification.
However, if the crew suspects that all of the conditions were present, but can’t absolutely determine that some element was there, then, per UIL, they have the option to call this ‘targeting,’ and the player is not disqualified (unless it is his second ‘targeting’ foul of the game).
The most common element that might be in question is the “indicator.” There may be forcible contact to the head/neck area of a defenseless player, but the crew can’t be 100% positive there was a launch, upward thrust, or other attacking action. These things happen so fast, they may conclude there probably was an indicator, but no one can confirm there was clearly an indicator, so they elect to call it targeting, and not flagrant targeting.
For anyone in Texas that isn’t aware, the THSCA and the UIL formulated this exception, to help increase the number of targeting calls, in an effort to reduce the number of dangerous hits on players by giving officials a way to penalize a suspected targeting foul without requiring the player to be DQd. The THSCA and UIL both felt (probably correctly) that officials were reluctant to make some calls for fear of DQing a player incorrectly, and that many dangerous hits were getting by out there.
After one season, the exception can be said to be quite successful. More overall targeting fouls called, and far fewer big hits attempted.

Online dammitbobby

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Re: (Yet another) dumb free kick question
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2020, 11:08:41 AM »
Thanks all, this has been very helpful.