assisting a runner

[CalhounLJ]

The part where you actually give a definitive answer to the question.  . Reading my last post carefully, how would you rule on that specific situation?

[AlUpstateNY]

The part where you actually give a definitive answer to the question.  . Reading my last post carefully, how would you rule on that specific situation?

You gave me either/or choices, the answer is the same for either/or; based on what I observed ACTUALLY happened, I would either rule TD, and IGNORE the contact as happening after the play had ended, or, if the contact was before the TD judge whether, or not, the contact ACTUALLY "assisted the runner's forward progress" in scoring the TD.  If so, it would be a foul, if not it would be incidental, and immaterial.

[CalhounLJ]

You gave me either/or choices, the answer is the same for either/or; based on what I observed ACTUALLY happened, I would either rule TD, and IGNORE the contact as happening after the play had ended, or, if the contact was before the TD judge whether, or not, the contact ACTUALLY "assisted the runner's forward progress" in scoring the TD.  If so, it would be a foul, if not it would be incidental, and immaterial.

So there’s not a situation in which you would blow the play dead and rule his forward progress had stopped?


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[AlUpstateNY]

So there’s not a situation in which you would blow the play dead and rule his forward progress had stopped?


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That wasn't one of the choices you asked about.  Adding that option to the choices you made available, I'd be very much inclined to consider that choice whenever feasible. Of course if one of my crewmates judged what he observed worthy of a violation call, I'd respect his conclusion.

[CalhounLJ]

So let’s say you actually saw the runner hit the pile, not in the end zone. Then you judged the runner had not broken the plane of the end zone before the contact to his BACK by the QB. Then you actually saw the QB hit the runner in the back, who by now is part of the pile. Then you actually saw the QB push the runner and the pile, and you actually judged the QB provided enough momentum to the runner connected to the pile to push both across the goal. Would you blow you whistle and kill the play? Would you throw your flag for assisting the runner? Or would you consider the play a td?


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Notice the first question after the situation. “Would you blow your whistle and kill the play?”  It’s really a simple question. Based on your previous posts, if you were officiating a a game and witnessed a situation where all the variables pointed to a player pushing the runner toward the goal, would you blow the play dead and consider his forward progress stopped? Or throw your flag? Or rule a td? What’s your personal philosophy here?

[AlUpstateNY]

Notice the first question after the situation. “Would you blow your whistle and kill the play?”  It’s really a simple question. Based on your previous posts, if you were officiating a a game and witnessed a situation where all the variables pointed to a player pushing the runner toward the goal, would you blow the play dead and consider his forward progress stopped? Or throw your flag? Or rule a td? What’s your personal philosophy here?

You seem to be having real difficulty with my stating, "it all depends on what I ACTUALLY SAW (on that PARTICULAR play"). Of course it might make a difference which position I might be working (Wing, Umpire, Referee).  I try to avoid general "philosophies" (most of the time) and concentrate on what I'm looking at.

Was the runner stopped, did the "push" actually "assist" the runner gain something he was unable to gain on his own, was the "push" a contributing factor, did it provide an unearned advantage or make a difference.  Essentially, did it matter.  All 3 options you suggest (TD, Flag, Dead Ball short of the goal) are possible based on what I saw and judged happened on THIS play.

However, whatever I decided ends, with THIS play.  Last time it happened, next time it happens are brand new judgmenst and decisions and this instance has no relevant bearing on the next time.

[CalhounLJ]

You seem to be having real difficulty with my stating, "it all depends on what I ACTUALLY SAW (on that PARTICULAR play"). Of course it might make a difference which position I might be working (Wing, Umpire, Referee).  I try to avoid general "philosophies" (most of the time) and concentrate on what I'm looking at.

Was the runner stopped, did the "push" actually "assist" the runner gain something he was unable to gain on his own, was the "push" a contributing factor, did it provide an unearned advantage or make a difference.  Essentially, did it matter.  All 3 options you suggest (TD, Flag, Dead Ball short of the goal) are possible based on what I saw and judged happened on THIS play.

However, whatever I decided ends, with THIS play.  Last time it happened, next time it happens are brand new judgmenst and decisions and this instance has no relevant bearing on the next time.

Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?

[AlUpstateNY]

Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?

Now that you've asked a specific question, I'll be able to give you a specific answer.  As you suggest, "The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier" they didn't earn a TD.  My choice would then be, since they didn't EARN a TD, they're not getting one.

Unless the actual pushing was blatant and/or flagrant, I'd exercise "preventive officiating", consider the runner's (own) progress ended where the pushing began and kill the play at that spot, giving the runner credit for ALL that HIS effort EARNED, although I would counsel the "pusher" that his action could have caused unnecessary consequences.

Stopping the play at that spot eliminates any UNEARNED advantage (for either team).



 

[Etref]

This is not a foul to go looking for.

To paraphrase  a line from John Wayne in Comancheros

It’s like a rattlesnake, you see one you’ll know it

[CalhounLJ]

Now that you've asked a specific question, I'll be able to give you a specific answer.  As you suggest, "The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier" they didn't earn a TD.  My choice would then be, since they didn't EARN a TD, they're not getting one.

Unless the actual pushing was blatant and/or flagrant, I'd exercise "preventive officiating", consider the runner's (own) progress ended where the pushing began and kill the play at that spot, giving the runner credit for ALL that HIS effort EARNED, although I would counsel the "pusher" that his action could have caused unnecessary consequences.

Stopping the play at that spot eliminates any UNEARNED advantage (for either team).

Thanks Al. That was simple and definitive.

[refjeff]

Yes, we agree. I'm having great difficulty with your inability to take a stand on this play. Let's try it again:
Let's use your summary as a foundation: "Essentially, did it matter?" Let's say the answer is yes. It mattered. The only reason the ball crossed the goal line was because another player pushed the back of the ball carrier, who was part of the pile. In this specific instance, which of the options you have suggested yourself would you apply to this specific situation? Would you:
(1) Blow the play dead, ruling the runner's forward progress stopped the moment the other player pushed him?
(2) Throw a flag for assisting the runner?
(3) Rule the play a touchdown, ignoring the assist?

A foul does not cause the ball to become dead.  4.2.2

The Ohio interpretation is that pushing the pile is not a foul.

Touchdown.

[AlUpstateNY]

This long dead, poor horse deserves a funeral and final resting place.  You are absolutely correct, "Pushing the "Pile" is NOT a foul.  Unfortunately that was NOT what was being discussed.  However, "Aiding the runner" is a foul, as described in NFHS 9-1.

As some would suggest, a somewhat innocuous foul, that was suggested might be avoided (without being ignored) by considering that the runner's OWN forward progress had been stopped, when the "aiding" began, and therefore happened AFTER the play had stopped.

Or, of course you could decide to consider the "aiding" occurred during the play, and identify the foul.  One of the many split second decisions you'll be challenged to make during a game.

[CalhounLJ]

What is the actual NFHS rule when it comes to assisting the ball carrier? Can an offensive player push the pile that the runner is in but not actually pushing the runner without penalty? Seems like some gray area.

Whether an offensive player can push the pile is SPECIFICALLY the question

[AlUpstateNY]

Whether an offensive player can push the pile is SPECIFICALLY the question

You can parse your question as often as you like, and it doesn't change reality.  "Helping the RUNNER" is a foul (as defined by 9-1).  There is no rule violated by "pushing the pile". 

If, however, YOU conclude, as in NFHS 2-15-1: "Forward progress is the advancement of the ball, toward the opponent's goal, in a runner's possession or the forward-most point of the ball when it is fumbled OOB and it determines the the dead-ball spot." has occurred, YOU can end play at that instant.  It's really up to YOU, exclusively, hopefully based on what YOU are observing, at that moment.

[CalhounLJ]

Lol. Ok.