Football Officiating > NCAA Discussion

RTP and fumble

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Grant - AR:
I agree with Kalle's original answer and bringing the ball back to the spot of the fumble.  The exceptions to Rule 7-2-2-a say the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble on 4th down in this case.  We penalize the roughing from there. 

Etref:

--- Quote from: ElvisLives on June 22, 2021, 04:23:48 PM ---There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive

--- End quote ---

We date ourselves.

Most of the guys working now think John Adam’s was one of the Founding Fathers!   ;D

JasonTX:

--- Quote from: Etref on June 23, 2021, 10:34:24 PM ---We date ourselves.

Most of the guys working now think John Adam’s was one of the Founding Fathers!   ;D

--- End quote ---

You aren't far off.   ;D

JasonTX:
I just received a reply to this question from Shaw.  Someone else also sent him an inquiry.  I suspect it was someone who was following this thread.  I will copy and paste the whole reply.  It includes the plays someone else sent as well as mine.

"Jason –

I recently received a similar request below – Let’s look at it 1st:
 
A request for ruling on the scrimmage down following would be helpful to many of us who are not certain as to the enforcement spot for the Roughing the Passer penalty, when the ‘fourth down fumble rule’ must also be considered:

 
End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.

 
Ruling:  The roughing the passer penalty is added to the end of the last run when the run ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of possession during the down (Rule 9-1-9-a&b).  In your play the 4th down fumble rule is in effect so A80’s fumble at the A-44 is recovered beyond the spot of the fumble at the fifty by A70, so there is a forward fumble and no change of possession during the down.  The ball will be returned to the spot of the fumble at the A-44 (Rule 7-2-2-a, Exception 2).  Enforce a 15-yard penalty from the A-44, and it will be 1/10 @ B-41.

 
The play you describe:

4th and 10 at the B-30.  A10 takes the snap and throws a legal forward pass that is caught by A80 on the B-5.  He is hit and fumbles the ball forward where it is recovered by A20 while grounded at the B-1.  A flag was thrown for roughing the passer.  Ruling?

The penalty will be enforced from the A5, ˝ the distance to the goal and an automatic 1st down.

 Same play except the fumble is recovered in the end zone for an apparent TD.  Ruling?

Same as above, the penalty will be enforced from the A5, ˝ the distance to the goal and an automatic 1st down.

 If the forward fumble went into the end zone and was recovered by a Team B player, then the enforcement would be at the previous spot because there was a change in possession during the down."

ElvisLives:
Piling on, here.

Here is the reply I got. I am amazed - and impressed - that we got such reasonably quick replies.
--------------------------------

Robert –
The roughing the passer penalty is added to the end of the last run when the run ends beyond the neutral zone and there is no change of possession during the down (Rule 9-1-9-a&b).  In your play the 4th down fumble rule is in effect so A80’s fumble at the A-44 is recovered beyond the spot of the fumble at the fifty by A70, so there is a forward fumble and no change of possession during the down.  The ball will be returned to the spot of the fumble at the A-44 (Rule 7-2-2-a, Exception 2).  Enforce a 15-yard penalty from the A-44, and it will be 1/10 @ B-41.

Let me know if you have questions or need further discussion.

Steve Shaw
CFO National Coordinator of Football Officials
Secretary-Rules Editor, NCAA Football Rules Committee
--------------------

So, as Kalle stated, take care of the 4th down fumble first, then enforce the penalty.

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