Football Officiating > NCAA Discussion

RTP and fumble

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ref6983:

--- Quote from: Legacy Zebra on June 20, 2021, 06:44:34 PM ---I'm late to the party, but I'm going to disagree with this one. This is not just an "apparent" run by A-70, it is a run by rule. The end of that run is the B-43. That is where the rules say to enforce the penalty from, the end of the last run. Would the ball go back to the B-45 if there were no RPS? Yes. But the ball would also go over to Team B in the second question since A was short of the line to gain. Why would this be any different?

--- End quote ---

This would be a bizarre interpretation if it is correct. The intent of the 4th down fumble rule is to never allow A to gain yardage when a player fumbles. If you enforce from the recovery spot, then A has gained yardage not intended by rule.

Also, in this scenario, what if A70 recovers in B's end zone? Then you have the enforcement spot in the end zone. TD for A and enforce on the KO/try? Doesn't seem likely, but it certainly cannot be enforced at the recovery spot.

Kalle:

--- Quote from: ref6983 on June 22, 2021, 10:12:13 AM ---This would be a bizarre interpretation if it is correct. The intent of the 4th down fumble rule is to never allow A to gain yardage when a player fumbles. If you enforce from the recovery spot, then A has gained yardage not intended by rule.

--- End quote ---

Well, we have a 4th down fumble by team A and a (PF) foul by team B, and you can plausibly (IMO) say that the foul is the greater wrong here, thus allowing enforcement from the spot of the recovery.

JasonTX:

--- Quote from: Kalle on June 22, 2021, 12:06:19 PM ---Well, we have a 4th down fumble by team A and a (PF) foul by team B, and you can plausibly (IMO) say that the foul is the greater wrong here, thus allowing enforcement from the spot of the recovery.

--- End quote ---

So in the scenario that ref6983 posed with the 4th fumble ending in a TD, would you allow the TD to stand and then deal with the penalty?

Normally when they want us to ignore a rule they add an exception to it.  The rules dealing with the 4th down fumble rule do not have any exceptions to them that would suggest we ignore it when there is an accepted penalty.  The way I read it the rules tell us that when a teammate of the fumbler catches or recovers the ball on 4th down or a Try, the ball becomes dead immediately and returns to the spot of the fumble if in advance.  This happens before we even know there are fouls.  Mechanically, we aren't holding onto the spot when the ball is caught or recovered in advance, we are simply bringing the ball back to the spot of the fumble and that would be the end of the last run IMO.

ElvisLives:
I'm in the camp that says we take it back to the spot of the fumble, then complete the penalty. But, none of us have positive knowledge of the ruling for this scenario. There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive to rule queries. However, that does not seem to be the case, today.
Perhaps if we all sent this question to sdshaw.cfo@gmail.com, he might get the idea that this is a question that needs an answer.

Revised question with yard lines that make the math easier:

4/5, A-40. End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.
Ruling:

JasonTX:

--- Quote from: ElvisLives on June 22, 2021, 04:23:48 PM ---I'm in the camp that says we take it back to the spot of the fumble, then complete the penalty. But, none of us have positive knowledge of the ruling for this scenario. There was a time when I could get a quick ruling from John Adams, as he was quite responsive to rule queries. However, that does not seem to be the case, today.
Perhaps if we all sent this question to sdshaw.cfo@gmail.com, he might get the idea that this is a question that needs an answer.

Revised question with yard lines that make the math easier:

4/5, A-40. End A80 catches (by full definition) a legal forward pass at the A-42 and advances to the A-44 where he fumbles the ball. A70 recovers the ball at the 50. B99 was flagged for roughing the passer.
Ruling:

--- End quote ---

I fired off an email a hour ago to him.  Will see if a response comes.

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