Author Topic: Down of the day  (Read 1329 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Down of the day
« on: March 01, 2023, 09:12:02 AM »
Ruling may not be as clear as we would like it to be.

2/10, B-35. Time/score irrelevant. A11 advances and is tackled by B99 and the ball becomes dead in A11's possession at the B-30. As B99 rises from the ground after tackling A11, he places his hand on the facemask of A11 and forcibly pushes down on A11's head as he pushes himself upward. The U calls a UNS foul on B99. After consultation between the R and U to coordinate the enforcement spot, distance, and next down, the U moves to enforce the penalty, and the R begins his announcement. As the R is announcing the foul, A88 swears with profanity at B99. The B calls a UNS foul on A88.

Ruling:


Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2023, 09:53:37 AM »
I believe it would be 1/10 @B's 30. The foul on A occurred after the completion of penalty administration (announcing the foul), therefore the order of occurance applies. B's foul creates a new series when ball marked at B's 15, ump  sNiCkErS would then do a U-turn and bnring ball back to B's30 for A's naughty talk. Using NFHS signals, this would be the protocol :

(1) signals 7 & 38, ump brings ball to B's 15;
(2) signal 8, ref signals 1st down;
(3) signals 7 & 27,ref returns ball to B's 30.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2023, 11:13:41 AM »
The correct answer depends on what is really meant by the penalty being completed "when it is accepted, declined or canceled according to rule, or when the choice is obvious to the referee." I personally think that the penalty is completed when the referee instructs the crew as to what the next succeeding spot should be, but it is at least equally likely that the penalty is completed only after the crew has actually established the succeeding spot.

So, in this case IMO it would end up being 1/10 at B-30. It also well could be 3/5 at B-30. Has there ever been a play situation bulletin play ruling for this?

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2023, 11:18:07 AM »
I believe it would be 1/10 @B's 30. The foul on A occurred after the completion of penalty administration (announcing the foul), therefore the order of occurance applies. B's foul creates a new series when ball marked at B's 15, ump  sNiCkErS would then do a U-turn and bnring ball back to B's30 for A's naughty talk. Using NFHS signals, this would be the protocol :

(1) signals 7 & 38, ump brings ball to B's 15;
(2) signal 8, ref signals 1st down;
(3) signals 7 & 27,ref returns ball to B's 30.

Concur (mostly). But the potentially confusing circumstance is the fact that these are not the usual bang-bang fouls that occur in the same general time frame (like mutual shoving, or a late hit with a retaliation block). In this case, A88's UNS foul occurred clearly after the penalty for B99's UNS foul had been completed. OK, so that removes the provision to 'cancel' the penalties for both UNS fouls, and play 3rd down at the dead-ball spot. So, we'd have to penalize B99's foul to the B-15. Then we'd have to penalize A88's foul back to the B-30. But, is it 1st/10? Or is it 1/25?
Don't get confused by the "...and none of the penalties have been completed,..." in 10-1-5. Since B99's penalty had been completed, yes, they are penalized in the order of their occurrence, per 10-1-5. Then we have to follow 5-2-7, as A88's foul occurred between series, due to the completion of B99's penalty. After the distance penalties are enforced, then, because B99's penalty includes a first down, the line-to-gain is established after A88's penalty is enforced. 1/10. So, the net effect is to give Team A a new series at the dead-ball spot.

Personally, I don't like this part of the rules. If we are already in the process of announcing one foul, these guys need to have enough self-control to avoid doing anything stupid. If that is Team B, they suffer sufficiently in giving up another 15 yards plus a first down. But, if Team A does something stupid, yeah, they give back the distance, but they still get 1/10. I think it would be more effective if this resulted in 1/25. But, I'm not in charge.

I believe the NCAA wants both of these fouls to be treated as UNS fouls, so each player gets one credited to their UNS counters. Should it be their second UNS, they get to go to the dressing room.

As for the announcements, I would expect the R to fully complete the announcement for B99's foul (with appropriate hand signals):
"After the ball became dead, unsportsmanlike conduct, number 99, defense - shoving the face of the ball carrier. That's a 15-yard penalty, and a first down. This is number 99's first unsportsmanlike conduct foul of the game."

Then, the second foul would be reported, and completed, with the announcement (with appropriate hand signals): "After the penalty for number 99's foul was accepted, unsportsmanlike conduct, number 88, offense - abusive language toward an opponent. That's a 15 yard penalty. By rule, since both fouls occurred before the ball was declared ready for the next down, the line-to-gain is set after both distance penalties are enforced. 1st and 10, at the Notre Dame 30 yard line.
This is number 99's first unsportsmanlike conduct foul of the game."

Yeah. A lot to say. But Pereira would say something like, "A very good explanation by the Referee!"

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2023, 11:34:27 AM »
The correct answer depends on what is really meant by the penalty being completed "when it is accepted, declined or canceled according to rule, or when the choice is obvious to the referee." I personally think that the penalty is completed when the referee instructs the crew as to what the next succeeding spot should be, but it is at least equally likely that the penalty is completed only after the crew has actually established the succeeding spot.

So, in this case IMO it would end up being 1/10 at B-30. It also well could be 3/5 at B-30. Has there ever been a play situation bulletin play ruling for this?

Kalle, I know what are getting at, i.e., cancel the penalties for both fouls. But, I very deliberately wrote the question to make the timing of A88's foul CLEARLY after the penalty for B99's foul had been completed. As you state, it is completed when it is accepted, declined, offset, or the choice is obvious to the R. First, in the absence of a second foul, it would be immediately obvious to the R that the penalty for B99's foul is accepted by A. That's a no-brainer. Then the R coordinates with the U for the penalty. Then the R steps away, stops, composes himself, and is in the middle of his announcement when A88 pulls his stupid stunt. B99's penalty has long been completed. So, the opportunity to cancel the penalties is no longer available. It will be 1st down. The only question is the line-to-gain. But, 5-2-7 settles that (whether I like it or not). 1/10.
No, I've never seen a bulletin play like this. But, I did have, essentially, the same thing happen to me last season. We ruled 1/10. But, it did get me to looking up the rules, again, to be certain. I remembered that this morning, and thought I would throw that out there, for the benefit of others.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 01:08:07 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2023, 11:38:24 AM »
I was the author of removing the order of occurrance DB enforcement in NFHS back in 2015. One concern was if the 2nd DB foul was delayed, such as in Elvis's play, should they still cancel ?. I felt that there should be a 'line of demarcation" for this situation to be treated as individual fouls with order of occurrance enforcement. We decided that completion of penalty administration - begining to step off, begining to announce - should be that moment when a new flag calls for a new enforcement. If the ref has already started to talk and the ump has already started to walk, this prevents ,ref :" A personal foul after the play on...WHOOPS....SOMETHING ELSE JUST HAPPENED....!! ".  :!#

If you need someone to blame, blame me (in NFHS). Unsure who to blame in NCAA.  tR:oLl
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 12:00:29 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3309
  • FAN REACTION: +109/-35
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2023, 12:20:22 PM »
The only question is the line-to-gain. But, 5-2-7 settles that (whether I like it or not). 1/10.

TBH I did not even think about this aspect as it has been so ingrained to me that until the RFP you will always have 1/10 after any penalty awards a first down, no matter how many penalties by either team will get enforced after the first penalty and before the RFP :)

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2023, 02:01:40 PM »
TBH I did not even think about this aspect as it has been so ingrained to me that until the RFP you will always have 1/10 after any penalty awards a first down, no matter how many penalties by either team will get enforced after the first penalty and before the RFP :)
Good point, Kalle, we need to remember that ,in a hurry to get the snap off while in a hurry-up offense, A rushes up to the line on 1st & 10 and snapped BEFORE the RFP. While one might be tempted to treat the DOG foul as 1st & 15, the stakes should be reset to 1st & 10 as the foul occurred prior to the RFP.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 08:08:57 AM by Ralph Damren »

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2023, 02:56:40 PM »
Good point, Kalle, we need to remember that ,in a hurry to get the snap off while in a hurry-up offense, A rushes up to the line on 1st & 10 and BEFORE the RFP. While one might be tempted to treat the DOG foul as 1st & 15, the stakes should be reset to 1st & 10 as the foul occurred prior to the RFP.

Just to clarify, yes, literally snapping the ball before it has truly been declared ready for play by the R (when a 'chop' or 'wind' is required) is a DOG foul, 5-yards, succeeding spot. This is not like 'rushing to the line to snap the ball quickly WHILE IN THE PROCESS OF SUBSTITUTION' (and neither a chop nor a wind is required).  In the latter case, there is no penalty for the first instance - we simply stop the game, let Team B match up, then warn Team A's HC that the next time will be a 15-yard UNS foul, then resume play. Two different animals. With a C and a U, I just don't see how either should ever happen. A good U can keep it from happening, by himself. It just requires concentration and game awareness.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2023, 08:00:14 AM »
My apologies for my comment, as my demented brain was on NFHS mode while on a NCAA site.  hEaDbAnG

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2023, 10:09:03 AM »
My apologies for my comment, as my demented brain was on NFHS mode while on a NCAA site.  hEaDbAnG

Apology not required. Your presence is always welcome, as far as I am concerned (but I'm not in charge).

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2023, 07:16:11 AM »
Ruling may not be as clear as we would like it to be.

2/10, B-35. Time/score irrelevant. A11 advances and is tackled by B99 and the ball becomes dead in A11's possession at the B-30. As B99 rises from the ground after tackling A11, he places his hand on the facemask of A11 and forcibly pushes down on A11's head as he pushes himself upward. The U calls a UNS foul on B99. After consultation between the R and U to coordinate the enforcement spot, distance, and next down, the U moves to enforce the penalty, and the R begins his announcement. As the R is announcing the foul, A88 swears with profanity at B99. The B calls a UNS foul on A88.

Ruling:
IF the EOR was at B's 26 with the following occurance (at least in NFHS) the ump's journey would take him to the 13 and then back to the 28 w/1&10. This would probably get the 'armchair referees' a' talking... ??? ::) :!#

SUGGESTED  :!# ANNOUNCEMENT : "The second foul occurred After the first foul was announced. The first foul created a first down that remained after the second foul was enforced. Because the first foul was within the 30,only half the distance was allowed,  hence the ball was marked at the 13. Then with the application of the later foul, the enforcement brought the ball out to the 28, At this time I will not accept any questions.  tiphat:."

....on the second thought, maybe you shouldn't say anything  8] ;D.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 07:40:15 AM by Ralph Damren »

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
  • FAN REACTION: +161/-143
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2023, 08:14:16 AM »
IF the EOR was at B's 26 with the following occurance (at least in NFHS) the ump's journey would take him to the 13 and then back to the 28 w/1&10. This would probably get the 'armchair referees' a' talking... ??? ::) :!#

SUGGESTED  :!# ANNOUNCEMENT : "The second foul occurred After the first foul was announced. The first foul created a first down that remained after the second foul was enforced. Because the first foul was within the 30,only half the distance was allowed,  hence the ball was marked at the 13. Then with the application of the later foul, the enforcement brought the ball out to the 28, At this time I will not accept any questions.  tiphat:."

....on the second thought, maybe you shouldn't say anything  8] ;D.

Yeah, a half-the distance penalty would cause us to do a little more math, but the announcement would be almost identical. The only thing that would need to change would be the yard line of the succeeding spot: "1st and 10 and the Notre Dame 28."
Again, a lot to say, but it would certainly explain everything - at least to the "rules analyst" and our coordinator.  :)

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 4681
  • FAN REACTION: +865/-28
  • SEE IT-THINK IT-CALL IT
Re: Down of the day
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2023, 09:07:59 AM »
Yeah, a half-the distance penalty would cause us to do a little more math, but the announcement would be almost identical. The only thing that would need to change would be the yard line of the succeeding spot: "1st and 10 and the Notre Dame 28."
Again, a lot to say, but it would certainly explain everything - at least to the "rules analyst" and our coordinator.  :)
NOTRE DAME NEVER FOULS, ONLY GETS EVEN!  tiphat: