Inadvertent Whistle and PF

[jra104]

Had a play tonight where a kid was blocking to hard and was called for a personal foul during the play AND we had an inadvertent whistle, running back had a CLEAR PATH to the EZ.  How is this supposed to be adjudicated?

[JasonTX]

Describe "blocking too hard".  Ignore the IW and penalize as you would have normally.  Any time there is an IW I'm always hoping someone had a flag down because now we only deal with the penalty just as if the IW never happened.

[TXMike]

Had a play tonight where a kid was blocking to hard and was called for a personal foul during the play AND we had an inadvertent whistle, running back had a CLEAR PATH to the EZ.  How is this supposed to be adjudicated?

Did the runner stop?   What game was this?

[Kalle]

Describe "blocking too hard".  Ignore the IW and penalize as you would have normally.  Any time there is an IW I'm always hoping someone had a flag down because now we only deal with the penalty just as if the IW never happened.

Assuming the foul was on team A... (yeah, "blocking too hard" does sound like an offensive foul)

[DallasLJ]

Did the runner stop?   What game was this?

  That's not the Rule.  You have to deal with the IAW, then the foul.  Does A want the result of the play?  Then presumably enforce foul from spot of foul if beyond the LOS.  If A wants to replay the down, they can do that to -- but still enforce Team A from the previous spot.

[JasonTX]

  That's not the Rule.  You have to deal with the IAW, then the foul.  Does A want the result of the play?  Then presumably enforce foul from spot of foul if beyond the LOS.  If A wants to replay the down, they can do that to -- but still enforce Team A from the previous spot.

4-1-2-c.  Try this:  2nd and 10 at the A-20.  A10 receives the snap runs up field.  The L throws a flag for a BBW against team A at the A-25 and blows the whistle at the same time.  The runner was at the A-30.  Ruling:

[DallasLJ]

4-1-2-c simply means take care of the whistle first -- then complete the penalty.  This has been the language used the in the Roger's Redding Study Guide for decades.  So, Team A has the following options:

  Option 1.  Replay the down.  So under 4-1-2-b that makes it 2nd and 10 again from the A20.  Then administer the BBW -- 1/2 the distance from the A20 back to the A10.  So, it is 2nd and 20 from the A10 YL.

  or

  Option 2.  Take the result of the play.  Result is run to the A30 with a Team A foul at the A25; behind the run.  So, enforcement is 1/2 the distance from the 25, or the 12 1/2 YL and repeat the down; A ball 2nd and 17 1/2 from the A 12 1/2 YL.

  Team A will take option 2.   

[JasonTX]

4-1-2-c simply means take care of the whistle first -- then complete the penalty.  This has been the language used the in the Roger's Redding Study Guide for decades.  So, Team A has the following options:

  Option 1.  Replay the down.  So under 4-1-2-b that makes it 2nd and 10 again from the A20.  Then administer the BBW -- 1/2 the distance from the A20 back to the A10.  So, it is 2nd and 20 from the A10 YL.

  or

  Option 2.  Take the result of the play.  Result is run to the A30 with a Team A foul at the A25; behind the run.  So, enforcement is 1/2 the distance from the 25, or the 12 1/2 YL and repeat the down; A ball 2nd and 17 1/2 from the A 12 1/2 YL.

  Team A will take option 2.

4-1-2-c takes precedence.  "If a foul or violation occurs during any of the above downs, the penalty or violation privilege shall be administered as in any other play situation..."

Here's another one.

4th and 10 from the A-40.  Team A punts the ball and the ball is rolling on the ground at the B-20 when A80 is the first to touch the ball.  The B inadvertently blows his whistle when A80 touched the ball.  Ruling:

[Kalle]

4-1-2-c simply means take care of the whistle first -- then complete the penalty.  This has been the language used the in the Roger's Redding Study Guide for decades.  So, Team A has the following options:

Well, Rom Gilbert has disagreed for decades with such an interpretation http://www.romgilbert.us/p-1705.htm

[DallasLJ]

Well, Rom Gilbert has disagreed for decades with such an interpretation http://www.romgilbert.us/p-1705.htm

  I'll go with Rogers Redding, former NCAA Rules Editor, over Gilbert.

  Even the ARs support my position.  The ARs invoke IAWs during a punt while the "kick" is lose.  And there is a foul by return team.  Your understanding would ignore the kick -- give B the ball and enforce the post scrimmage kick foul.  The ARs makes clear that under 4-1-2-b-3 because it is a kick play, there is no option -- you replay the down; ie go back to 4th down at the previous spot.  Then you enforce the foul -- here a team B foul enforced from the Previous Spot, which in these examples results in a first down for Team A.

[Kalle]

Even the ARs support my position.  The ARs invoke IAWs during a punt while the "kick" is lose.  And there is a foul by return team.  Your understanding would ignore the kick -- give B the ball and enforce the post scrimmage kick foul.  The ARs makes clear that under 4-1-2-b-3 because it is a kick play, there is no option -- you replay the down; ie go back to 4th down at the previous spot.  Then you enforce the foul -- here a team B foul enforced from the Previous Spot, which in these examples results in a first down for Team A.

What is the basic spot for fouls during the kick, ignoring any IW? Previous spot, right? So, when there is a foul during the kick and an IW before the end of the kick, the enforcement is from the previous spot (PSK does not apply as team B is not in possession when the IW sounds, team A is).

Could you quote the passage from the Reddings guide which says that you first give the team in possession the option of taking the result or replay, and only then dealing with the foul?

To take this to an even more absurd level, here's another play situation.

4/10 @ A-20. A11 punts the ball and B99 tackles him to the ground immediately after the kick is made. B88 catches the ball at B-30 and runs to B-40 where he fumbles. While the fumble is loose, the BJ blows an IW when the loose ball is at B-40. Ruling? I'm pretty sure that everybody agrees that it is 1/10 for team A at A-35 and not 1/10 for team B at B-25.

[DallasLJ]

What is the basic spot for fouls during the kick, ignoring any IW? Previous spot, right? So, when there is a foul during the kick and an IW before the end of the kick, the enforcement is from the previous spot (PSK does not apply as team B is not in possession when the IW sounds, team A is).

Could you quote the passage from the Reddings guide which says that you first give the team in possession the option of taking the result or replay, and only then dealing with the foul?

To take this to an even more absurd level, here's another play situation.

4/10 @ A-20. A11 punts the ball and B99 tackles him to the ground immediately after the kick is made. B88 catches the ball at B-30 and runs to B-40 where he fumbles. While the fumble is loose, the BJ blows an IW when the loose ball is at B-40. Ruling? I'm pretty sure that everybody agrees that it is 1/10 for team A at A-35 and not 1/10 for team B at B-25.

  Kalle

  So I pulled the 1997 Redding Guide (I am sure I can find a more recent one but this rule has not changed).  Page 89 under Loose Ends says:

  How to We Treat A Foul (under IAW)

  "The rule is rather vague on dealing with fouls during a play where there is an inadvertent whistle (4-1-2-c) saying only that the penalty is administered as in any other play situation.  What this mean is, take care of the whistle first, then complete the penalty (AR 4-1-2-1)."

  No one ever said IAWs are fair.

[dammitbobby]

From this year's Redding guide, page 110:

Inadvertent Whistle
In an inadvertent whistle is sounded after Team B gains possession, the down is over and is not replayed unless a foul that was committed before the change of possession results in the down being replayed with Team A snapping the ball (4-1-2b4).

Page 209-210:

During a Snap, Kick, or Forward Legal Pass:
Whenever an inadvertent whistle sounds during a snap, kick or a legal forward pass, there is no option: the ball is returned to the previous spot and the down is replayed (4-1-2b3).

How Do We Treat A Foul?
Penalties for fouls and violations during a play where there is an inadvertent whistle are administered as in any other play situation (4-1-2c). That means if there is a live-ball foul on the play and the penalty is accepted, the penalty is administered, and the inadvertent whistle is ignored.

some examples are listed, this one seems relevant:

Example 12-13
4/17 at the A-45. During Team A's punt that crosses the neutral zone, B63 blocks below the waist five yards beyond the neutral zone. An official sounds his whistle while the kick is still in the air.

RULING:
The ball must be returned to the previous spot, because the whistle occurred during the kick. The previous spot then becomes the basic spot, so the the penalty for Team B's foul is enforced from this point. It will be 1/10 for Team A at the B-40.

[ElvisLives]

From this year's Redding guide, page 110:

Inadvertent Whistle
In an inadvertent whistle is sounded after Team B gains possession, the down is over and is not replayed unless a foul that was committed before the change of possession results in the down being replayed with Team A snapping the ball (4-1-2b4).

Page 209-210:

During a Snap, Kick, or Forward Legal Pass:
Whenever an inadvertent whistle sounds during a snap, kick or a legal forward pass, there is no option: the ball is returned to the previous spot and the down is replayed (4-1-2b3).

How Do We Treat A Foul?
Penalties for fouls and violations during a play where there is an inadvertent whistle are administered as in any other play situation (4-1-2c). That means if there is a live-ball foul on the play and the penalty is accepted, the penalty is administered, and the inadvertent whistle is ignored.

some examples are listed, this one seems relevant:

Example 12-13
4/17 at the A-45. During Team A's punt that crosses the neutral zone, B63 blocks below the waist five yards beyond the neutral zone. An official sounds his whistle while the kick is still in the air.

RULING:
The ball must be returned to the previous spot, because the whistle occurred during the kick. The previous spot then becomes the basic spot, so the the penalty for Team B's foul is enforced from this point. It will be 1/10 for Team A at the B-40.

Is this Redding's NCAA Guide? Something wrong here. When there is an IW while the ball is in possession, the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play at the dead-ball spot (next down, as appropriate), or repeat the down at the previous spot (a complete 'do-over'). By NCAA rule. So, don't tell me that the only way to repeat the down is via a penalty. Yes, a penalty enforcement may affect the down number. But, absent a foul, the ball will be put in play at the dead-ball spot, or the down will be repeated.

[dammitbobby]

screenshot attached, sorry about the size.  I typed it verbatim (typos are mine though)

Redding Study Guide to NCAA Football Rules, 2024 Edition.

[ElvisLives]

screenshot attached, sorry about the size.  I typed it verbatim (typos are mine though)

Redding Study Guide to NCAA Football Rules, 2024 Edition.

Sorry. Unreadable. But all you have to do is check 4-1-2-b-1 to know that the down may be repeated at the previous spot (without a foul). If Redding (or the current ghost writer/editor) is claiming otherwise, then they are simply wrong.

[ElvisLives]

OK, I finally got a good look at the attachment. That is talking about an IW following a COP on a Try or in an extra period. Very different story. Not at all following the original example play. Apples to peanuts.

[JasonTX]

OK, I finally got a good look at the attachment. That is talking about an IW following a COP on a Try or in an extra period. Very different story. Not at all following the original example play. Apples to peanuts.

  What do you have on these play?

1.  4th and 10 from the A-40.  Team A punts the ball and the ball is rolling on the ground at the B-20 when A80 is the first to touch the ball.  The B inadvertently blows his whistle when A80 touched the ball.  Ruling:

2.  4th and 10 from the B-40.  A10 receives the snap and is inside the tackle box and under duress when he tries to throw the ball away from still inside the tackle box.  A50 catches the ball at the B-37.  The R has a flag down for ING and the U throws his flag for the apparent ITP by A50 and inadvertently blew the whistle after the catch is made.  Ruling:

[ElvisLives]

  What do you have on these play?

1.  4th and 10 from the A-40.  Team A punts the ball and the ball is rolling on the ground at the B-20 when A80 is the first to touch the ball.  The B inadvertently blows his whistle when A80 touched the ball.  Ruling:
B, 1/10, B-20 (4-1-2-c). The ball was NOT in player possession, so 4-1-2-b-1 does not apply.


2.  4th and 10 from the B-40.  A10 receives the snap and is inside the tackle box and under duress when he tries to throw the ball away from still inside the tackle box.  A50 catches the ball at the B-37.  The R has a flag down for ING and the U throws his flag for the apparent ITP by A50 and inadvertently blew the whistle after the catch is made.
Ruling:
B, 1/10, (unknown spot of pass). 4-1-2-c applies, and the ING will result in Team B being awarded a series at the spot of the pass.

What is the lesson here? 

(Do I really have to tell everybody?
-Whistle in HAND - not in the mouth
-When in doubt, let it play out
-If you don't know, don't blow)

[JasonTX]

What is the lesson here? 

(Do I really have to tell everybody?
-Whistle in HAND - not in the mouth
-When in doubt, let it play out
-If you don't know, don't blow)

Or do like my Umpire and leave it in the lockeroom at halftime.  He worked the whole second half without a whistle.  Nobody never knew until the back judge inquired in the 4th qtr.  He didn't need it.

[Bulldog75]

1.  4th and 10 from the A-40.  Team A punts the ball and the ball is rolling on the ground at the B-20 when A80 is the first to touch the ball.  The B inadvertently blows his whistle when A80 touched the ball.  Ruling:
B, 1/10, B-20 (4-1-2-c). The ball was NOT in player possession, so 4-1-2-b-1 does not apply.

Would 4.1.2.b.3 apply on this scenario?  Are we still in a scrimmage kick play if the ball has been touched but not possessed?  If so, we would replay the down, right?

[ElvisLives]

Would 4.1.2.b.3 apply on this scenario?  Are we still in a scrimmage kick play if the ball has been touched but not possessed?  If so, we would replay the down, right?

I will be the first to admit that the IW rules are ambiguous, and my understanding might not be what Shaw would rule. But, in this case, 4-1-2-c tells us that the foul OR VIOLATION SHALL (not ‘may’) be administered as in any other play situation. That tells me that the illegal touching violation is invoked by Team B, giving them the ball at the spot of the violation.

[dammitbobby]

OK, I finally got a good look at the attachment. That is talking about an IW following a COP on a Try or in an extra period. Very different story. Not at all following the original example play. Apples to peanuts.

Yes, that's my mistake.  Was just trying to provide the most current current verbiage and didn't realize it was talking about a specific category.

[TxBJ]

It is interesting that RR noted many years ago that the rule wasn’t clear, but it has never been fixed.