Author Topic: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch  (Read 1272 times)

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Offline Derek Teigen

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Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« on: January 17, 2021, 02:02:39 PM »
I'm in the rule book and am interested in rule 6 article 5 ' R may catch or recover a free kick in k's end zone' has anyone seen this happen?  It seems so implausible but it must have happened for it to be in the rule book!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 02:19:00 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2021, 03:48:51 PM »
I can't find that in 6-5. Are you sure that's the right reference?

Never mind, I found it. It's 6-1-5.

it's not that implausible. I've seen R block a kick and recover it in K's endzone. I've never seen R catch a kick in the air in K's endzone, but it could happen.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 03:50:49 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline zebraken

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2021, 04:46:45 PM »
Iíve never seen a free kick end up in Kís end zone. Implausible is a good word for that. Not impossible I guess

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2021, 05:14:09 PM »
Iíve never seen a free kick end up in Kís end zone. Implausible is a good word for that. Not impossible I guess

Remember we are talking about a free kick.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2021, 05:45:50 PM »
Ever seen an onside kick attempt spin backwards?  I have.  A football can do funny things.

Also imagine the wind pushing the ball back after the kick, particularly after a penalty(ies) on K.

Offline zebraken

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2021, 06:54:59 PM »
Iíve seen footballs bounce and spin every which way in my 28 years of officiating but Iíve never seen a free kick end up in Ks own end zone. Iíd love to see that. Can someone point me to a video of it?

Offline zebraken

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2021, 06:58:33 PM »
Remember we are talking about a free kick.

Yes, a free kick. Of course Iíve seen many a scrimmage kick get blocked and end up in Ks own end zone but for a free kick to end up in Ks own end zone would take some extraordinary circumstances that Iíve yet to see

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2021, 07:47:37 PM »
Remember we are talking about a free kick.
Yeah, thatís my bad. I read it too quick.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2021, 05:48:31 AM »
Hereís the full text of 6-1-5:

ďAny receiver may catch or recover a free kick in the field of play and advance, unless any R player has given a valid or invalid fair-catch signal.  R may catch or recover a free kick in Kís end zone.Ē (emphasis added)

So I suppose the second sentence reinforces that R canít advance such a kick, since they have already scored a TD.

I also have never seen or heard of this happening, but anythingís possible.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2021, 07:36:45 AM »
Iíve been thinking about this since my snafu. Iím wondering if it was put there to clarify that the kick was still live if/when it crossed the plane of Kís end zone. Because when we typically think of a kick going into an endzone we think dead ball as soon as it crosses the plane.

I donít know. Thereís holes in that theory too.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2021, 04:38:03 PM »
yeah maybe that's a good thought.  if the free kick was on an onside kick I agree with HLinNC who said the ball can do funny things and I could see the ball never being possessed and fumbled (is that the right word can you have a fumble if the ball is never possessed?) until the ball crosses K's goals line and R falls on it. So yes maybe to avoid killing the play at that time they added just that what you said and decided to throw in the 'catch' at the same time just in case...

 This  stood out as I was trying to imagine how a receiving team could ever catch a free kick in k's endzone, but I think as HLinNC said a free kick from the 20 yard line because of a safety and maybe there was a dead ball personal foul that put the free kick line back to the 10 yard line a big wind blew the punt back into the end zone that was caught by R.....maybe it happened once but it was strange they have that line added in there and wanted to see if anybody had any thoughts on that.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 07:41:02 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2021, 07:40:50 PM »
yeah maybe that's a good thought.  if the free kick was on an onside kick I agree with HLinNC who said the ball can do funny things and I could see the ball never being possessed and fumbled (is that the right word can you have a fumble if the ball is never possessed?) until the ball crosses K's goals line and R falls on it. So yes maybe to avoid killing the play at that time they added just that what you said and decided to throw in the 'catch' at the same just in case because if you didn't and it did happen then what?

 This  stood out as I was trying to imagine how a receiving team could ever catch a free kick in k's endzone, but I think as HLinNC said a free kick from the 20 yard line because of a safety and maybe there was a dead ball personal foul that put the free kick line back to the 10 yard line a big wind blew the punt back into the end zone that was caught by R.....maybe it happened once but it was strange they have that line added in there and wanted to see if anybody had any thoughts on that.
To answer the fumble question, no.  You canít fumble a ball you never possess. Thatís a muff.


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2021, 10:35:51 AM »
Regardless of the rule set, for a receiving team player to catch a free kick in the kicking team's end zone would, indeed, be exceptionally freaky. By the laws of physics, certainly not impossible. But, as others have noted, it would take a very an exceptional set of circumstances. In any event, it would surely require the kicking team's restraining line to be their own 10 yard line or so (relocated by penalties).
Nearest to impossible would be if this was a kickoff (punting not allowed). But, I suppose a a really hard kicked ball that traveled straight ahead could deflect off receiving team player's helmet or shoulder pads, and fly up and backward (toward the kicking team's goal line), high in the air enough to allow a really fast receiving team player to run under it and catch it in the kicking team's end zone.

Only very slightly less freaky would be if this was a free kick after a safety, with a punt by the kicking team. A high punt blown by a typical West Texas Friday night wind could do the trick, blowing the ball back to the kicking team's end zone where that same really fast receiving team player could run underneath of it and make the catch.

Not really my field or expertise (NFHS), but the rule language provided earlier indicated "catch or recover," and I think the recover component of that language is far more likely to happen. In either of the two scenarios I offered above, the ball is more likely to return to the ground before anybody - especially a receiving team player - can get to it. So, not much chance of a catch, but a somewhat distinct possibility of a recovery.
 

Offline Ump33

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2021, 12:33:06 PM »
6-1-5 ... Any receiver may catch or recover a free kick in the field of play and advance, unless any R player has given a valid or invalid fair-catch signal.  R may catch or recover a free kick in Kís end zone.

Iíve been thinking about this since my snafu. Iím wondering if it was put there to clarify that the kick was still live if/when it crossed the plane of Kís end zone. Because when we typically think of a kick going into an endzone we think dead ball as soon as it crosses the plane.

I donít know. Thereís holes in that theory too.

Agree with CalhounLJ ... Since K's EZ is not part of the "Field of Play, the NFHS is stating that a kick is still live when it is in K's EZ.

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2021, 07:46:34 PM »
everything everybody is saying makes sense.  reading further into RULE 6 (KICKING the BALL and FAIR CATCH)    Rule 6 article 7 says if any K player touches the free kick before it crosses R's free kick line it is considered first touching and R may take the ball at the spot of first touching.  What if that first touching occurs in K's own end zone?

I know this will never happen in my career but I think it interesting to think about but pretty much as unlikely to happen as R 'catching' or 'recovering' a free kick in K's endzone....
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 07:51:44 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2021, 08:14:50 PM »
This option is untenable because neither team can begin a series in the end zone.


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Offline zebraken

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2021, 08:13:33 AM »
As noted by CalhounLJ, first touching can only occur beyond the expanded neutral zone

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2021, 10:38:20 AM »
You may need the same reminder I needed at the beginning of this thread. We are talking free kick here, and K CAN be guilty of first touching in the neutral zone on a free kick.

Plus, the neutral zone would not apply in this crazy situation either, because the neutral zone begins at K's Free Kick line and extends to R's free kick line, and is always 10yds.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2021, 10:41:38 AM »
You may need the same reminder I needed at the beginning of this thread. We are talking free kick here, and K CAN be guilty of first touching in the neutral zone on a free kick.

Plus, the neutral zone would not apply in this crazy situation either, because the neutral zone begins at K's Free Kick line and extends to R's free kick line, and is always 10yds.

To your point, technically, this so-called "first touching" scenario can't happen in or "beyond" the neutral zone, since K's end zone is BEHIND the neutral zone.

if this crazy scenario ever happened, i would just give the ball to whomever had it at the end of the down, with points if applicable, and move on...

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2021, 11:14:25 AM »
Hi Calhoun.  I just thought it was interesting the rule book seemed to go out of its way to mention that R could 'Catch' or 'Recover' a free kick in K's endzone and that really stood out for me.

So now I can imagine a play where K on sides a free kick that it touched by K prior to R's free kick line and then the ball gets 'MUFFED' around until it ends up back in K's end zone and recovered by K.  According to Rule 5 article 7;  R could take possession of the ball at the any number of spots where K 'first touched' the ball including the final first touch and recovery by K in their own zone.  Is this a safety?

Question:  assume no penalties by R which negates first touching.   Imagine again the play where multiple muffs occur and the ball is muffed back towards k's endzone.  What if one of K's first touches occurred at their 1  yard line before the ball crosses into their zone and is recovered by K.  Would you award a safety and or give R a choice to begin their possession at the spot of first touching of their choice.  And then to confuse matter even more do you remember the recent thread about 'illegal forward pass' in the end zone on 4th down and how that is an automatic safety and no choice to decline it and begin possession at the previous spot?  pi1eOn


Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2021, 11:26:58 AM »
Well for one, thereís a difference between K first touching at the one as opposed to in the end zone, which was the first situation you proposed.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2021, 11:37:20 AM »
I'm living for that play....

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2021, 11:47:35 AM »
I'm living for that play....
Lol


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Offline zebraken

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2021, 03:27:42 PM »
Yes, thank you CalhounLJ ...my bad

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Rule 6 kicking the ball and fair catch
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2021, 01:09:56 PM »
You would need one heck of a headwind to carry a free kick back into K's end zone where R catches it but recovering a free kick that had been muffed several times could occur if K's free kick line was deep in their own territory after several penalties. Unlike R's EZ, where the ball would become dead and a TB, the ball would remain alive. Force would come into play with the following possible situations :
   (1) R recovers = TD
   (2) K recovers, with K's force bringing ball in = safety
   (3) K recovers, with R's force bringing ball in = TB
   (4) kick goes OOB ,forced in by K = safety
   (5) kick goes OOB, forced in by R = TB
Remember, a new force can be added to a grounded kick and force is an issue on kicks going into K's EZ.

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