Missed field goal....

[HLinNC]

Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!)

    

[NVFOA_Ump]

Since this already is an exception, don't we actually need an exception to the exception?

[CalhounLJ]

Since this already is an exception, don't we actually need an exception to the exception?

True, but we don’t normally do that. So that would have to be an exception.



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[AlUpstateNY]

V. Lombardi advised, "Perfection is NOT attainable, but if we chase perfection , we can catch excellence."  A worthy pursuit, however, another quote strongly suggests, and cautions, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and it's arguable this added "exception #3" might well be "A bridge too far", worthy of further consideration (by the rule writers). Until then, it is what it is.

[refjeff]

Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.

Unless it's short, and returned.   



 

[Ralph Damren]

…..for your viewing pleasure 

[ElvisLives]

So, field goal attempts are included in the situations in which a Team A live-ball foul can be penalized at the spot where the dead ball belongs to B, or the previous spot (NFHS)?

[CalhounLJ]

Yep
10-4-2 Exception:

EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

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[jgf6]

For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.

[CalhounLJ]

Yes. If the score is tied and K misses the game winning field goal and fouls during the kick R can take the penalty and have it enforced at the succeeding spot.


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[ncwingman]

Yes. If the score is tied and K misses the game winning field goal and fouls during the kick R can take the penalty and have it enforced at the succeeding spot.


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Ooh, wait... I think there's a catch here.

The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

K misses the game winning field goal, but had an illegal formation.

K then wins the overtime coin toss and elects to go on offense first. K is now the next to put the ball in play. Does R lose the option to enforce the penalty?

[CalhounLJ]

Ooh, wait... I think there's a catch here.

K misses the game winning field goal, but had an illegal formation.

K then wins the overtime coin toss and elects to go on offense first. K is now the next to put the ball in play. Does R lose the option to enforce the penalty?

That’s an interesting question, but after much ponderance I’m going to say no. R can still take the penalty in overtime even if the team that was K at the end of regulation is the first to put the ball in play.

Here’s my rationale: the consideration as to who will put the ball in play is made immediately at the end of the play. If the result of the play is a missed field goal, the ball belongs to R at the end of that play, providing K has not recovered the kick due to muff or fumble. Therefore, the exception is applied at that point. The fact that a later decision after the penalty choice is made gives the ball back to the team that kicked it to end regulation is irrelevant as to penalty administration.

At least that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.


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[CalhounLJ]

That’s something I certainly never considered. Would it work this way at the end of the third quarter? Because succeeding spot certainly doesn’t seem to imply that.


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[bossman72]

NO!
Not according to the NFHS Rules Book.
This is a live ball foul that occurred during a non-scoring regulation play, and, in this situation, the penalty, if accepted, will extend regulation play with an untimed down.

WHY?
Their are two rules which are applicable on this play.

3-3-3...A period shall be extended by an untimed down if the following occurs during a down in which time expires:
   a.  There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those listed in 3-3-4b.

10-4-2 EXCEPTION:  The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick, when K is not next to put the ball in play.

Because the result of the play is a touchback,
R has three choices:
1) Decline the penalty and proceed to the overtime coin toss.
2) Accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot on an untimed down (1st and 10 for R on the R25)
3) Accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot on an untimed down (4th and 5 for K after a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot) (Not a very likely choice)

Correct, you would have to extend the period to enforce the ILF foul.

8-4-3 lets you bridge fouls to the succeeding spot, but only for fouls by R and on SUCCESSFUL field goals.  So if this was an R foul, say roughing the kicker, and they made the field goal, you can bridge it to OT.

[AlUpstateNY]

Apparently, NOT. 2020 "Resolving Tied Games" Situation F (pg 87) suggests "A" responding to a live ball foul by B, on a successful Try, "Will likely take enforcement at the succeeding spot to begin overtime. (and then cautions) Game officials must be certain to explain the options clearly, not only during penalty administration, but also during the OT coin toss."

Situations B,  L, & J all describe instances, for different type fouls (live ball/dead ball) where "succeeding spot" is determined, in the overtime period, after application of penalty enforcement, and selection by the winner of the OT coin flip.

[CalhounLJ]

Correct, you would have to extend the period to enforce the ILF foul.

8-4-3 lets you bridge fouls to the succeeding spot, but only for fouls by R and on SUCCESSFUL field goals.  So if this was an R foul, say roughing the kicker, and they made the field goal, you can bridge it to OT.

So essentially what you all are saying is that the period is not over unless/until R declines the foul? Therefore the 10-4-2 succeeding spot is the dead ball spot?
This actually makes sense.


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[CalhounLJ]

Yep
10-4-2 Exception:

EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

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I’m still having trouble with the succeeding spot language of the 10-4-2 exception. Am I wrong in saying that in every other circumstance, on a play during the last play of a tie game,  the succeeding spot would be the first play of overtime?

For example, the play in question. Take the penalty out of the equation. At the end of this play, the half is over and the succeeding spot is the first play of overtime.

If the field goal is good creating the tie and the foul is by R, the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime.

If either team commits a live ball foul treated like a dead ball foul we mark it off from the succeeding spot which is the first play of the overtime.

If either team commits a dead ball foul after the play is over we mark it off from the succeeding spot which is the first play in overtime.

But when we add the K penalty now we have to manufacture a different succeeding spot to make it work. Something doesn’t feel right.

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[CalhounLJ]

One more and I’m done. When you look at the 3-3-4 exceptions to the untimed down, every one is succeeding spot. It seems like the rules makers were trying to avoid replaying untimed down at a phantom succeeding spot.


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[KWH]

Apparently, NOT. 2020 "Resolving Tied Games" Situation F (pg 87) suggests "A" responding to a live ball foul by B, on a successful Try, "Will likely take enforcement at the succeeding spot to begin overtime. (and then cautions) Game officials must be certain to explain the options clearly, not only during penalty administration, but also during the OT coin toss."

Situations B,  L, & J all describe instances, for different type fouls (live ball/dead ball) where "succeeding spot" is determined, in the overtime period, after application of penalty enforcement, and selection by the winner of the OT coin flip.

ALF -

Thank you for pointing out these four, Rules Book, OT, Case Book plays, however, they really have nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Situation F is a live-ball foul by the opponent of a successful 2-point try. - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation B is a dead ball foul that occurs AFTER the end of regulation - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation L is a live-ball foul by the opponent of a successful 1-point try. - Succeeding spot enforcement, however, K has the option, replay the try, go for 2 (after enforcement of a half-the distance penalty) and win the game if they are successful / lose if they are unsuccessful, or have the penalty enforced at the start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.
Situation J is a dead ball foul that occurs AFTER the end of regulation - Succeeding spot enforcement, the only succeeding spot is start of OT as explained in the Rules Book.

However, in the play we are discussing, K committed a live ball foul during a non-scoring play which occurred during the last timed down of regulation.
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 15 5 for K. (Any official who allows this option deservers a 9-iron to the nards)
* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the succeeding spot, replay with an untimed down, 1st and 10 for R. (Likely)
* R can choose to decline the penalty and proceed to overtime coin toss. (Possible, but not likely)

What R may NOT choose to do, is carry the penalty enforcement for this particular foul into overtime.

Fouls for which the penalty may be enforced at the start of OT

* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful Field Goal scoring team. (They would also have the option to replay this down in Regulation) 8-4-3
* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful 1-point try scoring team. (They would also have the option to replay this down in Regulation) 8-3-5
* Live ball fouls by the opponent of the successful 2-point try scoring team. 8-3-5
* Any dead ball foul committed while the ball was live, by the opponent of a successful Field goal, or successful try. 10-4-5b
* Any dead ball foul occurring after the end of regulation. 10-4-5b

Fouls for which the penalty may NOT be enforced at the start of OT (Unless the OT starts with a kickoff)

* Live ball fouls, committed by the opponent of the 6-point touchdown scoring team. 8-2-2 & 8-2-3
* Dead ball fouls occurring during a 6-point touchdown scoring team. 8-2-4
* Dead ball fouls occurring after a 6-point touchdown and prior to the initial read-for-play on the try 8-2-5
* Any accepted live ball foul occurring during a non-scoring play regulation. 3-3-3a & 10-4-2 EXCEPTION  (Say for example the play we are discussing)


I hope this helps clear things up rather than muddy the waters!   



 

[AlUpstateNY]

For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.

I was referring to J9f6's question (1:39:09 yesterday) "For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.", which I understood to relate specifically to "Overtime".

[KWH]

 

For this play, missed FG: If the score is tied and time runs out in the 4th Qtr during the kick, can this foul be carried over into overtime? The succeeding spot is now in the overtime period.

No!
That is not an option in this situation!
Please review my recent post just above this one for rulings!

[bama_stripes]

* R can choose to accept the penalty with enforcement from the previous spot, replay with an untimed down, 4th and 5 for K. (Any official who allows this option deservers a 9-iron to the nards)

Really?  If the FG attempt was a long one, R might elect to move K back 5 yards so as to have the chance at a return for a TD.  (Yes, the 2013 Iron Bowl Kick Six is still fresh in my mind)

[CalhounLJ]

Really?  If the FG attempt was a long one, R might elect to move K back 5 yards so as to have the chance at a return for a TD.  (Yes, the 2013 Iron Bowl Kick Six is still fresh in my mind)

I thought the same thing but if I’m K in this situation I’m taking a knee and going to overtime.


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[CalhounLJ]

Still having trouble with the succeeding spot interpretation used by KWH. The definition of succeeding spot from the rule book is:

ART. 10 ... The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.

In the posted situation, this spot would be the first play of the overtime period. No way to turn or twist it to make it different from that. If K had not fouled, the next time the ball would have been snapped would be the first play in overtime. That’s the succeeding spot.

I’m cool with wanting to get the penalty resolved before we get to overtime, but there has to be another way.  Maybe if we don’t want to bridge this foul the language could be changed to read dead ball spot as an option instead of succeeding spot. Similar to the roughing the passer option:
 ART. 5 ... The enforcement spot is the dead ball spot for roughing the passer when the dead ball spot is beyond the neutral zone and there has been no change of team possession.

The new language would read specifically:

EXCEPTION: The basic spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the DEAD BALL spot for fouls by K during a legal free or scrimmage kick down (other than kick catch interference) prior to the end of the kick when K will not be next to put the ball in play.

this spot would be the same as the succeeding spot in the vast majority of cases, but would also rectify this particular problem. It also gives us a way to honor an untimed down to end the period while allowing R to take the play and the foul.

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[KWH]

Calhoun -

Let me try a different approach:
I'm sure you have had the opportunity to hear a TV common-tater say something similar to:  "Remember, a period can not end on an excepted penalty!"

Well, while this statement is not 100% true, across the board, for all fouls, in all levels of football; in NFHS play, it is completely true for accepted Live Ball Fouls except those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.

Since our foul is not listed in 3-3-4b, that makes this simple; it means Rule 3-3-3a applies and, if accepted,  the period must be extended for an untimed down.

So...in our situation...

* If the offended team chooses to accept the penalty for a foul which occurred in regulation time, the penalty is enforced in regulation, and, the period is extended for an untimed down in regulation.
* If the offended team chooses to roll directly into overtime, they SHALL decline the existing penalty to do so.

10-2-2 EXCEPTION is not applicable until Rule 3-3-4 has been satisfied.

This interpretation is supported by both Rule 3-3-4b and NFHS Football Fundamental II. 5.