Author Topic: Loose Ball Play  (Read 1662 times)

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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2021, 09:43:51 AM »
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.

You might try the NFHS.org website, under the different sports (Football) there is an 8 page list (and explanations) of "2020 Major Football Rule Differences between NFHS & NCAA" you might find helpful.

Offline Snapper

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2021, 10:01:59 AM »
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.

They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:06:26 AM by Snapper »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2021, 10:27:09 AM »
They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.
This is great advice. Early in my baseball career I tried to do both. Ended up being a jack of all trades but master of none. My advice is the same as snapper. Master one set before you try to expand into another. Whichever sport you pick.


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Offline Kalle

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2021, 12:03:13 PM »
These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item LOL.

Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2021, 05:05:31 PM »
Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.

Slide 13 is the same as NCAA.  Your answer is more thorough.  I was going for simplicity.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2021, 05:09:52 PM »
They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.

I'm one of those weirdos that know the differences very well.  What always helped me was to learn the NCAA rule inside and out and the NFHS rule is usually "simpler".  For instance, you have many different enforcement spots specified in NCAA.  NFHS, EVERYTHING is All-but-one (3 and 1).  So if you know how to do that, you can enforce anything in NFHS.  Intentional grounding has exceptions in NCAA.  NFHS is simpler in that you only need to worry about finding a receiver in the area.  Rarely do you have to learn a whole new concept for NFHS rules... they're usually just simpler versions of NCAA rules without the exceptions.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2021, 11:44:25 PM »
Slide 13 is the same as NCAA.  Your answer is more thorough.  I was going for simplicity.

Yeah, 99.999% of the time the enforcement is from the end of the kick, as it is really unlikely for team B to be able to foul behind that spot (a really short kick with a hold on the gunner further downfield comes to mind).

Offline twref

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2021, 12:32:55 PM »
Bossman...your efforts are much appreciated!!  I will push to many.  Thanks

Offline jgf6

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2021, 04:16:52 PM »
Along with this discussion, this is a play we have been kicking around, no pun intended: K's two-point try is from a "Swinging Gate" formation. K1 snaps the ball sideways, legally, but R1 knocks it away. The ball rolls back to R's 21-yard line where K1 picks it up and is pulled down by the face mask. Is the penalty enforced from the end of the run or the previous spot?

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2021, 06:10:54 PM »
my thinking on this is that once K regains possession of the ball that it is no longer a loose ball 'play' and it has become a running play with penalty enforced from the end of the run, which is the basic spot.  Final answer.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2021, 08:07:56 AM »
my thinking on this is that once K regains possession of the ball that it is no longer a loose ball 'play' and it has become a running play with penalty enforced from the end of the run, which is the basic spot.  Final answer.

Your conclusion seems confirmed by NFHS 2-41-9b (Spots).

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2021, 08:58:13 AM »
Remember ,too ,that an illegal forward pass is considered a running play. The rationale is two-fold :
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.

A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :

(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
   (a) B's 49;  (b) B's 42....

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2021, 07:54:05 PM »
Remember ,too ,that an illegal forward pass is considered a running play. The rationale is two-fold :
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.

A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :

(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
   (a) B's 49;  (b) B's 42....

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]

1A) spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 46 and loss of down mean B takes over on downs on A's 46 yard line.

1B)  spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 47 yard.  This is in advance of the line to gain but there is also a loss of down so B takes over on downs at B's 47 yard line. 

please do not ask me to cite the rule book as I cannot provide the rule number.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 08:06:13 PM by Derek Teigen »

Offline SDR

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2021, 10:36:19 PM »
"Loss of Down" is an interesting phrase - it really means that Team A loses it's right to replay the down after a penalty on Team A is accepted.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2021, 04:18:43 AM »
Derek nailed part A while SDR clarified part B. Because the enforcement doesn't bring the ball back inside the previous series, a new series is the result.  As SDR mentioned, "loss of down" is really "loss of right to repeat the down". It's easy to get confused, but consider R1 pitches the ball forward to B2 on a kick return = spot foul, 5 yards, 1st & 10. Thanks, guys, for your response. 

Offline zebraken

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2021, 12:29:12 PM »
In 1B wouldnt A be awarded a first down and keep the ball? Rule 5-2-2c says the loss of down aspect has no significance if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty or am I missing something?

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Loose Ball Play
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2021, 04:47:11 PM »
In 1B wouldnt A be awarded a first down and keep the ball? Rule 5-2-2c says the loss of down aspect has no significance if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty or am I missing something?
Yes, that's what I was trying to say. There was not a down to repeat as a new series have been gained.  Sorry for the confusion.