Loose Ball Play

[AlUpstateNY]

These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item .

You might try the NFHS.org website, under the different sports (Football) there is an 8 page list (and explanations) of "2020 Major Football Rule Differences between NFHS & NCAA" you might find helpful.

[Snapper]

These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item .

They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.

[CalhounLJ]

They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.

This is great advice. Early in my baseball career I tried to do both. Ended up being a jack of all trades but master of none. My advice is the same as snapper. Master one set before you try to expand into another. Whichever sport you pick.


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[Kalle]

These are great - are they also correct for NCAA?  I'd love to use these as a resource but don't want to have to fact check every single item .

Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.

[bossman72]

Like others have already said, in general, no, but in this particular case, with a caveat on slide #13 (in NCAA it is a simple 3-1 enforcement with the end of the kick spot being the basic spot), the clean hands document seems to be identical, and the carry-over has a separate tab for NCAA.

Slide 13 is the same as NCAA.  Your answer is more thorough.  I was going for simplicity.

[bossman72]

They are great.  A lot of work has went into those.

But NO, do not use Federation materials to try to learn NCAA penalty enforcement.  There are some concepts, like "Clean Hands", that apply to both.  But generally you will confuse yourself if you try to do that.
 
ETA: There are certainly people out there that know both and they know the differences very well.  But if you are in your first few years and you really only need to know one set of rules, then my suggestion is to stick with that set of rules and the material that's oriented towards them.

I'm one of those weirdos that know the differences very well.  What always helped me was to learn the NCAA rule inside and out and the NFHS rule is usually "simpler".  For instance, you have many different enforcement spots specified in NCAA.  NFHS, EVERYTHING is All-but-one (3 and 1).  So if you know how to do that, you can enforce anything in NFHS.  Intentional grounding has exceptions in NCAA.  NFHS is simpler in that you only need to worry about finding a receiver in the area.  Rarely do you have to learn a whole new concept for NFHS rules... they're usually just simpler versions of NCAA rules without the exceptions.

[Kalle]

Slide 13 is the same as NCAA.  Your answer is more thorough.  I was going for simplicity.

Yeah, 99.999% of the time the enforcement is from the end of the kick, as it is really unlikely for team B to be able to foul behind that spot (a really short kick with a hold on the gunner further downfield comes to mind).

[twref]

Bossman...your efforts are much appreciated!!  I will push to many.  Thanks

[jgf6]

Along with this discussion, this is a play we have been kicking around, no pun intended: K's two-point try is from a "Swinging Gate" formation. K1 snaps the ball sideways, legally, but R1 knocks it away. The ball rolls back to R's 21-yard line where K1 picks it up and is pulled down by the face mask. Is the penalty enforced from the end of the run or the previous spot?

[Derek Teigen]

my thinking on this is that once K regains possession of the ball that it is no longer a loose ball 'play' and it has become a running play with penalty enforced from the end of the run, which is the basic spot.  Final answer.

[AlUpstateNY]

my thinking on this is that once K regains possession of the ball that it is no longer a loose ball 'play' and it has become a running play with penalty enforced from the end of the run, which is the basic spot.  Final answer.

Your conclusion seems confirmed by NFHS 2-41-9b (Spots).

[Ralph Damren]

Remember ,too ,that an illegal forward pass is considered a running play. The rationale is two-fold :
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.

A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :

(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
   (a) B's 49;  (b) B's 42....

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]

[Derek Teigen]

Remember ,too ,that an illegal forward pass is considered a running play. The rationale is two-fold :
(1) While intentional grounding (in the IFP family) is usually done to prevent loss of yardage via a sack, it would only make sense to make it a spot foul.
(2) A forward pitch or handoff after a 30 yard gain would only be reasonable to treat as a spot foul.

A play that may need to be explained to the confused coaches would be :

(1) 4 & 2 @ 50, QB scrambles and throws a forward pass from;
   (a) B's 49;  (b) B's 42....

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL....b]

1A) spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 46 and loss of down mean B takes over on downs on A's 46 yard line.

1B)  spot foul 5 yard penalty brings the ball back to the 47 yard.  This is in advance of the line to gain but there is also a loss of down so B takes over on downs at B's 47 yard line. 

please do not ask me to cite the rule book as I cannot provide the rule number.

[SDR]

"Loss of Down" is an interesting phrase - it really means that Team A loses it's right to replay the down after a penalty on Team A is accepted.

[Ralph Damren]

Derek nailed part A while SDR clarified part B. Because the enforcement doesn't bring the ball back inside the previous series, a new series is the result.  As SDR mentioned, "loss of down" is really "loss of right to repeat the down". It's easy to get confused, but consider R1 pitches the ball forward to B2 on a kick return = spot foul, 5 yards, 1st & 10. Thanks, guys, for your response. 

[zebraken]

In 1B wouldnt A be awarded a first down and keep the ball? Rule 5-2-2c says the loss of down aspect has no significance if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty or am I missing something?

[Ralph Damren]

In 1B wouldnt A be awarded a first down and keep the ball? Rule 5-2-2c says the loss of down aspect has no significance if the line to gain has been reached after enforcement of the penalty or am I missing something?

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. There was not a down to repeat as a new series have been gained.  Sorry for the confusion.

[SCHSref]

Now, if your QB is smart and was tackled by the facemask behind the line AND fumbled before he was tackled, then it would be enforced from the previous spot.

[Ralph Damren]

Now, if your QB is smart and was tackled by the facemask behind the line AND fumbled before he was tackled, then it would be enforced from the previous spot.

He wouldn't only have to be smart , he would also have to be clairvoient  to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the  would  it  !

We ,too, need to be/stay smart on this. Many years ago this occurred in a regional championship where my goof could have cost a victory
                                   
SCENE : 3/8 @50, A's up by 2 with under 2 minutes left.....
(1) QB scrambles back to A's 38 where he's grabbed by FM and fumbles;
(2) flags  ^flagand bean bags were a' flying;
(3) B picks up fumble and races to paydirt  ;
(4) I go to stack of beanbags and send  on his 15 yd. journey;
(5) now 3/5 @ B's 47 , A runs ball to B's 30 ,1/10;
(6) clock runs out, we run to our cars  .

On the way home  I began to realize my goof  . Thank the  football gods  for ensuing 1st down, but my groof could have cost them a chance to play (and win) the state championship. The following year ,in our pre-season coaches meeting, I pulled both coaches aside and explained my screw-up. Their responses were....
WINNING COACH : "I would have argued, but I wouldn't have any idea what I was arguing about ."
LOSING COACH : " I was hoping you would have tacked our penalty onto OUR try for point !"

MORALE OF STORY : We are trusted to get the rules right...let's keep that trust.

[ncwingman]

He wouldn't only have to be smart , he would also have to be clairvoient  to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the  would  it  !

Would he?

I guess if he was *tackled* by the facemask, there's no action after that as the ball would be dead -- but let's say he stumbles, but stays on his feet and then fumbles clearly after the facemask was released, and following SCHSref's scenario that this all occurs behind the LOS.

The fumble makes it, and all action preceding it, a loose-ball play, so the foul on B would be enforced from the previous spot. There's no requirement here to fumble before the foul in order to have loose-ball enforcement.

[SCHSref]

He wouldn't only have to be smart , he would also have to be clairvoient  to fumble BEFORE the facemask foul, Knowing that : (1) his facemask would be grabbed, (2) the  would  it  !

We ,too, need to be/stay smart on this. Many years ago this occurred in a regional championship where my goof could have cost a victory
                                   
SCENE : 3/8 @50, A's up by 2 with under 2 minutes left.....
(1) QB scrambles back to A's 38 where he's grabbed by FM and fumbles;
(2) flags  ^flagand bean bags were a' flying;
(3) B picks up fumble and races to paydirt  ;
(4) I go to stack of beanbags and send  on his 15 yd. journey;
(5) now 3/5 @ B's 47 , A runs ball to B's 30 ,1/10;
(6) clock runs out, we run to our cars  .

On the way home  I began to realize my goof  . Thank the  football gods  for ensuing 1st down, but my groof could have cost them a chance to play (and win) the state championship. The following year ,in our pre-season coaches meeting, I pulled both coaches aside and explained my screw-up. Their responses were....
WINNING COACH : "I would have argued, but I wouldn't have any idea what I was arguing about ."
LOSING COACH : " I was hoping you would have tacked our penalty onto OUR try for point !"

MORALE OF STORY : We are trusted to get the rules right...let's keep that trust.

But I didn't say before the foul. It's something to think about because since this is HS football, anything can and WILL happen. Bean bags behind the LOS are for the purpose of...notification?  It wouldn't be for enforcement unless there was a change of possession.

[Ralph Damren]

But I didn't say before the foul. It's something to think about because since this is HS football, anything can and WILL happen. Bean bags behind the LOS are for the purpose of...notification?  It wouldn't be for enforcement unless there was a change of possession.

Agreed, SCHSref, beanbags were not needed to mark the spot of the fumble in this play. It just seemed natural to do following a fumble -and may have caused me to screw up and send the ump on his journey from there - my beanbag was there,too, so I can only blame myself  . IMHO, the only times beanbags that  are needed behind the LOS are:

(1) Runner goes OOB behind the LOS;
(2) QB sacked and driven back a few yards-I'll beanbag forward progress , retrieve the ball and flip to ump at spot;
(3) scrambling QB near LOS when he throws forward pass- I'll beanbag spot of feet, then look to downs marker to see if over LOS.

You guys may have other situations. Please share....

 

[CalhounLJ]

Agreed, SCHSref, beanbags were not needed to mark the spot of the fumble in this play. It just seemed natural to do following a fumble -and may have caused me to screw up and send the ump on his journey from there - my beanbag was there,too, so I can only blame myself  . IMHO, the only times beanbags that  are needed behind the LOS are:

(1) Runner goes OOB behind the LOS;
(2) QB sacked and driven back a few yards-I'll beanbag forward progress , retrieve the ball and flip to ump at spot;
(3) scrambling QB near LOS when he throws forward pass- I'll beanbag spot of feet, then look to downs marker to see if over LOS.

You guys may have other situations. Please share....

I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.


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[Ralph Damren]

I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.


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Thanks, Calhoun, I feel better now, knowing I'm in good company  !

I read somewhere :

[/"THOU WHO HAVE NEVER SINNED SHOULD THROW THE FIRST STONE"

...I don't believe it was in a NFHS Officials Manual   b]

[AlUpstateNY]

I’m guilty also. It’s just a reaction toss for me. I see the ball loose and throw my bag.


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"No harm, no foul" applies to many things.  It's a LOT easier to pick up a beanbag, that technically may not have needed to be thrown, than find a spot, one you forgot to mark.