Author Topic: Missed field goal....  (Read 9351 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Missed field goal....
« on: February 11, 2021, 08:22:18 AM »
PLAY: (1) K tries FG with ball @ 23, 4&10; (2) kick is wide right; (3) K is flagged for illegal formation.

YOU MAKE THE CALL.....

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2021, 09:07:25 AM »
R ball  1st and 10 @23.  the five yard penalty is declined and the play is accepted.  The Illegal Formation penalty is a live ball foul.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Missed field goal....
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2021, 09:10:53 AM »
R ball  1st and 10 @23.  the five yard penalty is declined and the play is accepted.  The Illegal Formation penalty is a live ball foul.
A missed field goal that breaks the plane of the goal line is a touchback.


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« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 09:13:07 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2021, 09:20:01 AM »
check out 10.4.2  the basic spot  may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2021, 09:28:00 AM »
check out 10.4.2  the basic spot  may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick.
You declined the penalty, remember? Plus, the succeeding spot is the 20. If you tack on the foul it would be 1 and 10 at the 25.


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Offline Etref

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2021, 11:00:25 AM »
If you decline the penalty how do you have a 5 yard mark off?
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2021, 11:03:58 AM »
If you decline the penalty how do you have a 5 yard mark off?
My point exactly. If you decline the penalty it’s r’s ball at the twenty because a kick missed wide right has crossed the plane of the goal line. Which is what Derek suggested.

Then, he pointed us to the exception. If you decide to accept the foul and apply the 10-4-2 exception, the basic spot for the foul is the twenty. Add five yards to that and it’s 1 and ten at the 25. 

Sorry, I guess I was talking in shorthand. I thought we could make the connection.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2021, 12:41:42 PM »
Let’s put another angle on this play. Same situation, but K centers the upright. Band plays, score!!!! Now what? And why?


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2021, 12:56:45 PM »
My point exactly. If you decline the penalty it’s r’s ball at the twenty because a kick missed wide right has crossed the plane of the goal line. Which is what Derek suggested.

Then, he pointed us to the exception. If you decide to accept the foul and apply the 10-4-2 exception, the basic spot for the foul is the twenty. Add five yards to that and it’s 1 and ten at the 25. 

Sorry, I guess I was talking in shorthand. I thought we could make the connection.


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 aWaRd Calhoun nailed it. R would accept the penalty w/tack-on to succeeding spot. Same would not be true on PAT kick as tack-on is not available if K is next to put the ball in play (the kickoff).
 aWaRd Cal
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 09:56:16 AM by carol1995 »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2021, 03:43:35 PM »


Excuse my confusion, If R, were to decline K's loose ball foul, the 4th down would count and R would take possession at the R 20 ydln due to the touchback.

If R were to accept K's loose ball foul, wouldn't K retain possession, subject to the administration of the penalty, with the opportunity to repeat their 4th down (to either attempt another FG, or run some other play of their choosing) ?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2021, 03:50:13 PM »
Excuse my confusion, If R, were to decline K's loose ball foul, the 4th down would count and R would take possession at the R 20 ydln due to the touchback.

If R were to accept K's loose ball foul, wouldn't K retain possession, subject to the administration of the penalty, with the opportunity to repeat their 4th down (to either attempt another FG, or run some other play of their choosing) ?
Because a field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick, the 10-4-2 exception gives R 3 options.
1. R can decline the penalty and take the touchback. Ball at 20.

2. R can accept the penalty from the previous spot, mark off 5 and K will replay 4th down.

3. R can accept the penalty, and choose to have it enforced from the succeeding spot, which is the 20.
The most logical for R in most situations is the succeeding spot option. Their ball 1 and 10 from the 25.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2021, 05:05:39 PM »


Congrats Calhoun!  I just knew there would be more to this deceptively simple case play!!!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2021, 05:06:59 PM »
Congrats Calhoun!  I just knew there would be more to this deceptively simple case play!!!
Yep. You have to watch Ralph. He’s crafty.


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Offline Derek Teigen

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2021, 06:22:11 PM »
Let’s put another angle on this play. Same situation, but K centers the upright. Band plays, score!!!! Now what? And why?


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it would forece a re-kick or re play and be k ball 4th and 15 @ the 28.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2021, 09:16:39 PM »
it would forece a re-kick or re play and be k ball 4th and 15 @ the 28.
Winner winner chicken dinner.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2021, 06:23:31 AM »
Yet another reason for the FED “no crime goes unpunished” philosophy to apply to only major distance safety fouls.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2021, 07:45:17 AM »
Yet another reason for the FED “no crime goes unpunished” philosophy to apply to only major distance safety fouls.
I agree in regard to philosophy. But I think this situation falls under the attempt to reduce rekicks, which is safety-related.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2021, 10:11:07 AM »


Forgive me Ralph, I must have a splinter in my eye preventing me from seeing this situation correctly.

As I understand the situation, K attempts a FG on 4th down, but commits a (live) loose ball foul (at the snap).  FG misses, so R chooses to decline the penalty rather than accept it.  If the penalty wre accepted, the 10-4-2 exception provides an option to enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot (R's 20 YL (touchback) or 5 yards further back.

By choosing to accept the penalty, doesn't R, in selecting the penalty yardage, give K the advantage of "replaying the down", which would maintain K's possession and the opportunity to repeat 4th down, as they see fit, giving K another opportunity to repeat their FG attempt, rather than ending K's series (on downs) and  taking possession of the ball to start a new series of their own ?

What am I missing?

Offline Badger1

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2021, 11:04:08 AM »
Fourth down and K punts from R's 45 yard line.  Prior to the punt, K65 holds and the punted ball goes into the endzone for a touchback.  R would have the ability to accept the penalty and have K rekick, decline the penalty and take the ball on the 20 yard line (touchback), or take the touchback with the 10 yd penalty enforced from the 20 yard line.  Same principle as the missed field goal.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2021, 02:33:43 PM »
So again, let's look at the specific wording that was tweaked in 2018.  The key words in 10-4-2 are " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..." for the 10-4-2 exception language to apply to this play as originally posted.

Does an Illegal Formation foul, or any K foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap, qualify as a " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..."  foul?  I'm thinking yes it does so I'd agree that there are 3 options for R here.

1.  Accept the penalty and take the ball at the 25 (succeeding spot + 5yds)
2.  Decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20 (succeeding spot) - the result of the play.
3.  Accept the penalty and have K re-kick -5yds (I doubt it)

Most important thing here is that we give R the correct options in the order that they are most beneficial to R.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 02:35:51 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2021, 02:34:55 PM »
Because a field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick, the 10-4-2 exception gives R 3 options.
1. R can decline the penalty and take the touchback. Ball at 20.

2. R can accept the penalty from the previous spot, mark off 5 and K will replay 4th down.

3. R can accept the penalty, and choose to have it enforced from the succeeding spot, which is the 20.
The most logical for R in most situations is the succeeding spot option. Their ball 1 and 10 from the 25.


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Offline refjeff

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2021, 02:52:21 PM »
So again, let's look at the specific wording that was tweaked in 2018.  The key words in 10-4-2 are " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..." for the 10-4-2 exception language to apply to this play as originally posted.

Does an Illegal Formation foul, or any K foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap, qualify as a " ..... during a free or scrimmage kick down ..."  foul?  I'm thinking yes it does so I'd agree that there are 3 options for R here.

1.  Accept the penalty and take the ball at the 25 (succeeding spot + 5yds)
2.  Decline the penalty and take the ball at the 20 (succeeding spot) - the result of the play.
3.  Accept the penalty and have K re-kick -5yds (I doubt it)

Most important thing here is that we give R the correct options in the order that they are most beneficial to R.
2.7.1 A down is action which starts with a legal snap ...  So your thinking is correct.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2021, 06:34:20 PM »
check out 10.4.2  the basic spot  may, at the option of the offended team, be the succeeding spot for fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick.

The 10-4-2 Exception (#3) seems to provide an unusually distinct advantage to R, when applied to this particular scenario (adding BOTH loss of the right to repeat the down PLUS yardage penalty to acceptance of the penalty.  As a 2018 rule adjustment, I checked the 2018 POE and found nothing explanatory.

However,  the "Comments on the 2018 Rules Changes" in the 2018 Rules Book offered the following, "In an effort to reduce re-kicks, further minimize risk and insure that appropriate penalties are in place for all fouls, the committee has added an option for fouls committed by the kicking team during free and scrimmage kicks.  The change would allow the receiving team all of the previous options as well as accepting the distant penalty at the end of the down."

Still seems kind of one-sided, but it is what it is, and our role remains to enforce it, as the rule makers decide it is. Thanks for highlighting it Ralph and generating discussion.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2021, 07:32:10 AM »
I agree in regard to philosophy. But I think this situation falls under the attempt to reduce rekicks, which is safety-related.


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Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.
 :sTiR:

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Missed field goal....
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2021, 07:54:25 AM »
Then we need an exception (OOH-that word!) for missed FGs. Nobody’s getting hurt on FG attempts anyway.
 :sTiR:
I agree completely.


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