10-5-2

[sczeebra]

A’s ball 3rd down from their 30. A12 scrambles back into his end zone where he is grabbed by the facemask and fumbles the ball. The loose ball rolls out of bounds either (a) behind the goal line or (b) at his 3 yard line. The penalty is accepted for the facemask foul. Where will A next snap the ball in accordance with Rule: 10-5-2?

[ncwingman]

A fumbled the ball behind the LOS, which makes it a loose ball play. The basic spot on a loose ball play is the previous spot, regardless of where the fumble went out of bounds.

The next play will start at the A-45 after the penalty is administered -- likely 1st down, but maybe still 3rd if the LTG was beyond the A45.

[sczeebra]

Then why is 10-5-2 special?

[ncwingman]

In this situation, since A12 fumbled the ball *during or after the foul*, B did not foul during a running play but rather a loose ball play. The fumble behind the LOS converts all previous action into a loose ball play, and the basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot.

If A12 fumbled the ball at the A5, recovered it in the end zone, and then was tackled by the facemask (without a second fumble), then the foul by B would be during a running play with the basic spot where A12 was tackled (in the end zone, resulting in a safety). Then 10-5-2 would kick in and the foul would be enforced from the goal line.

See Case Plays 10.5.4.A (Loose ball play ends in A's EZ, previous spot enforcement) and 10.5.2 (Loose ball play followed by running play, enforcement at goal line)

[sczeebra]

Then I'll still ask what makes 10-5-2 special. The case plays cited are nothing more than basic penalty enforcement issues concerning the goal line covered in 10-4-7. That would lead me to another question. What is the difference between 10-4-7 and 10-5-2.

[ncwingman]

You know, that's a really good question that I'm willing to bet Ralph or somebody else can explain the history behind. They seem to be very similar rules, and every time I think I figure out the difference, I end up confusing myself again. I'm guessing that one of the rules was used to fill an unintentional loophole or clarify a point of confusion, and ended up just being redundant.

The best I can come up with is that 10-4 establishes the basic spot and 10-5 establishes the enforcement spot. What makes it weird here is that the enforcement spot for any foul by the team not in possession (using the 10-4-7 term) a.k.a. the defense (using the 10-5-2 term) [as defined in 2-43-1-a] *is* the basic spot (as noted in 10-6), so 10-5-2 isn't really a special enforcement rule that overrides ABO.

[bossman72]

Then I'll still ask what makes 10-5-2 special. The case plays cited are nothing more than basic penalty enforcement issues concerning the goal line covered in 10-4-7. That would lead me to another question. What is the difference between 10-4-7 and 10-5-2.

10-4-7 is defining basic spot.  10-5-2 talks about enforcement.  Yes, I agree 10-5-2 seems unnecessary since it's not really a special enforcement, but there are a lot of rules/concepts repeated or reinforced in the rule book when the concept spans multiple areas of the rulebook.

[AlUpstateNY]

Then I'll still ask what makes 10-5-2 special. The case plays cited are nothing more than basic penalty enforcement issues concerning the goal line covered in 10-4-7. That would lead me to another question. What is the difference between 10-4-7 and 10-5-2.

 
In 10-5-2, A's muff of the handoff is the force responsible for the ball entering the EZ resulting in a safety.  Should A accept the penalty, again the foul would be enforced from the goal line, granting A the ball beyond the LTG, 1st & 10 from the 15YL.

In 10-4-7, B's interception (beyond the momentum zone) is the force responsible for taking the ball into B's EZ, where accepting the result of the play would cause B to create a safety.  However A's foul, during the play, provides B with the opportunity to take possession (after the interception) subject to a 15 yd penalty, enforced from the GL, 1st & 10 from the A-15 YL

[ncwingman]

Yes, I agree 10-5-2 seems unnecessary since it's not really a special enforcement, but there are a lot of rules/concepts repeated or reinforced in the rule book when the concept spans multiple areas of the rulebook.

That was my other thought that 10-5 doesn't establish anything new, but is just a summary of other enforcement provisions outlined elsewhere in the rule book. In other words, 10-5-1-a (free kick out of bounds) doesn't define the special enforcement, just notes that there *is* a special enforcement in 6-1-9.

[CalhounLJ]

A’s ball 3rd down from their 30. A12 scrambles back into his end zone where he is grabbed by the facemask and fumbles the ball. The loose ball rolls out of bounds either (a) behind the goal line or (b) at his 3 yard line. The penalty is accepted for the facemask foul. Where will A next snap the ball in accordance with Rule: 10-5-2?

Because the ball became dead while it was loose, it’s not a running play, it’s a loose ball play. Therefore, 10-5-2 is not applicable in this situation. A will snap the ball 15yds beyond the previous spot. A45.


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[CalhounLJ]

On the question of the necessity of 10-5-2, I agree it’s redundant. On that same note, so is 10-5-3. #captainobvious


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