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Offline dammitbobby

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Some quiz questions
« on: April 13, 2021, 11:52:37 AM »
Some Quiz questions for you...  please check and make sure I carried the 2 properly...   (not my questions, found on Rule 11 podcast website)

1.  Fourth-and-Five on B6. With 0:03 remaining in the game, Team A trails 18-14. QBA1 hands off to Back A2 at the B7 and A2 runs to the B4 where he fumbles the ball over the end line (0:00). During the loose ball, B7 pulled A7 down by the face mask in the end zone.

4th down fumble rule (7-2-2 exception 2) says that on  4th down, only the runner who fumbled may advance the ball.  Since the ball went backwards, over the endline, and Team A was responsible for that, the end result of the play is a safety.  The foul for facemasking by B, however, will be accepted by A, and since the foul was behind the initial spot, will be marked off from the original LOS.  Next play will be As Ball 1/10 at the B21, 25 PC.

2.  Fourth-and-Goal on B6. With 3:50 remaining in the third quarter, Team B leads 18-6. On a fake field goal, Holder A2 receives the snap at the B12, drops back in the pocket to the B20, and throws a pass to Tight End A3 in the end zone. Prior to the pass, B1 forces End A3 out of bounds at the B2. B3 goes through the back of A3 in the end zone, intercepts the ball and runs for a touchdown (3:41).

Initial result of the play is touchdown by B3.  B1 forcing A3 OOB is not a foul, assuming A3 returned immediately; however, B3 does have a foul for DPI in the EZ.  Since A3 never touched the forward pass, there is no foul for illegal touching. Since the ball was snapped from inside the B17, the penalty is enforced at the 2. (7-3-8-c penalty statement), therefore As Ball 1/10 at the 2, 25 PC, GC on snap.

3.  Two-Point Try attempt from the B3. QBA1 throws a pass towards Receiver A2 in the end zone. Prior to the pass, Tackle A4 pulled Defensive End B2 to the ground as he reached for A1. The pass is intercepted by B4 in the end zone, and he runs the ball to the B35 where he is tackled. During B4s run, B3 blocked A5 in the back at the B15.

The end result of the play is an interception by B returned to the B35.  We have a holding foul on A4, and a block in the back on B3.  8-3-4-c states:  If both teams foul during the down (yes) and Team B had not fouled before the change of possession (also yes), the fouls cancel, the down is not repeated, and the try is over.

4.  With 0:45 remaining in the first half, Team A leads 21-13, and kicks off from the A35. Team A players on the right side of the kicker were never inside the 9-yard marks. B1 catches the ball at the B5 and runs the length of the field to the A4 where he fumbles the ball into the end zone. A8 recovers the ball in the end zone and runs to the B45 where B3 tackles him at the sideline (0:04).

The end result of the play is a fumble recovery by A8, returned to the B45.  The lone foul on the kick is an illegal kick formation (not sure if that is the correct name, just what Im using here). 6-1-2-c-5 states that All players of Team A must have been between the nine-yard marks after the ready-for-play signal.  The penalty will be 5 yards, and rekick.

5.  First-and-Sixteen on 50. QBA1 hands off to Back A2 at the A47, and A2 runs to the B37 where B1 grabs him at the side inside his collar, and immediately throws him forward to the ground at the B36.

9-1-15 reads All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, the nameplate area, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down.  By the letter of the rule, this is not a foul. Depending on what it looked like and the interpretation of 'pulling the ball carrier down vs throwing him forward', I could support a flag for this.  A 1/10 at B35, PC 25, GC on snap.

*I may be wrong on the clock statuses for these, I couldn't find the rule reference specific to whether the clock starts/stops after a penalty enforcement.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 12:58:25 PM by dammitbobby »

Offline Covid 22

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2021, 12:46:20 PM »
#1 - Huh?  There is no game clock.  Accepted penalty, one untimed down.   PF = automatic 1st from 2 yard line.  25sec on RFP.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2021, 12:57:34 PM »
You're right, didn't realize that when I typed it out.  I answered as if time were not expired.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2021, 09:00:57 PM »
1. The pure result of the play is a touchback. The 4th down fumble rule only applies if the ball is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler. In this case, the ball was not caught/recovered, and it went OB behind Bs goal line; touchback. Yes, the penalty is enforced per the 3 and 1 from the Basic Spot, and the Basic Spot is the end of the related run, which is the spot of the fumble, the B-4 (not the previous spot). The penalty will be 1/2 the distance, plus a first down. Regarding the clock, the apparent touchback is what stopped the clock, so that is what governs when it will next start, which will be on the snap.
A, 1/G, B-2, 25, snap.

***Well, I didn't pay enough attention, either. Possession/down/distance/and play clock are correct, but, since time in the period expired, this will be a down in the extension of the period, so the clock will not run.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 10:36:57 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2021, 08:36:45 AM »

As usual you're absolutely correct - for that aspect, when I was visualizing this in my mind, I had the wrong end of the field.   I read it wrong and I pictured it as them coming out of their EZ and the ball was fumbled backwards beyond the endline (behind the LOS).

As my librarian mom used to say, reading is overrated. 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2021, 11:27:45 AM »
"2.  Fourth-and-Goal on B6. With 3:50 remaining in the third quarter, Team B leads 18-6. On a fake field goal, Holder A2 receives the snap at the B12, drops back in the pocket to the B20, and throws a pass to Tight End A3 in the end zone. Prior to the pass, B1 forces End A3 out of bounds at the B2. B3 goes through the back of A3 in the end zone, intercepts the ball and runs for a touchdown (3:41).

Initial result of the play is touchdown by B3.  B1 forcing A3 OOB is not a foul, assuming A3 returned immediately; however, B3 does have a foul for DPI in the EZ.  Since A3 never touched the forward pass, there is no foul for illegal touching. Since the ball was snapped from inside the B17, the penalty is enforced at the 2. (7-3-8-c penalty statement), therefore As Ball 1/10 at the 2, 25 PC, GC on snap."
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Kinda taking these questions one at a time.
Your conclusion is correct, but you're rationale is a bit suspect.
OK, so from a standard tight end position, A3 manages to get close enough to a sideline to get forced out of bounds by B1. OK, I suppose it could happen, but it is a stretch. No foul by B1. Not sure what you meant by "...assuming A3 returned immediately..." Irrelevant, with regard to B1's block. And, this isn't a kick down, so A3 can return inbounds whenever he wants. We don't know if A3 re-establishes himself inbounds, and we need to know that. If he doesn't re-establish, he isn't eligible, so DPI rules don't apply to him. But, if he has re-established when he is contacted by B3 (and, if we assume "...goes through the back..." means a DPI foul has been committed), then B3 has committed DPI. On those assumptions, no score. Since the previous spot was between the B-17 and the B-2, DPI in the end zone moves the ball to the B-2 (in direct line with the previous spot, laterally), first down. The game clock will start on the snap (due to the apparent touchdown). The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and will start on the referee's signal.


Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2021, 11:29:45 AM »
1. The pure result of the play is a touchback. The 4th down fumble rule only applies if the ball is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the fumbler. In this case, the ball was not caught/recovered, and it went OB behind Bs goal line; touchback. Yes, the penalty is enforced per the 3 and 1 from the Basic Spot, and the Basic Spot is the end of the related run, which is the spot of the fumble, the B-4 (not the previous spot). The penalty will be 1/2 the distance, plus a first down. Regarding the clock, the apparent touchback is what stopped the clock, so that is what governs when it will next start, which will be on the snap.
A, 1/G, B-2, 25, snap.

***Well, I didn't pay enough attention, either. Possession/down/distance/and play clock are correct, but, since time in the period expired, this will be a down in the extension of the period, so the clock will not run.

Is a touchback the exception to the forward-fumble rule (a ball that is fumbled forward is returned to the spot of the fumble)? If it is, then your post makes sense. If not, then the pure result of the play is a forward fumble at the B-4, which would be short of the line-to-gain. The penalty would be enforced half-the-distance with an automatic first down, creating an untimed down 1/G from the B-2, and a 25-second play clock due to penalty enforcement.

Usually, penalty enforcement results in the game clock starting on the ready-for-play signal, unless the result of the play dictates that the clock start on the snap (apparent score, touchback, ball carrier out of bounds in the last 2 minutes of either half), the penalty specifically prescribes that the clock is supposed to start on the snap (delay of game from scrimmage kick formation), or the game clock starts on the snap because the offended team has elected that option (either the trailing team under 2 minutes of either half, or because a 10-second runoff was declined).

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2021, 11:51:49 AM »
"2.  Fourth-and-Goal on B6. With 3:50 remaining in the third quarter, Team B leads 18-6. On a fake field goal, Holder A2 receives the snap at the B12, drops back in the pocket to the B20, and throws a pass to Tight End A3 in the end zone. Prior to the pass, B1 forces End A3 out of bounds at the B2. B3 goes through the back of A3 in the end zone, intercepts the ball and runs for a touchdown (3:41).

Initial result of the play is touchdown by B3.  B1 forcing A3 OOB is not a foul, assuming A3 returned immediately; however, B3 does have a foul for DPI in the EZ.  Since A3 never touched the forward pass, there is no foul for illegal touching. Since the ball was snapped from inside the B17, the penalty is enforced at the 2. (7-3-8-c penalty statement), therefore As Ball 1/10 at the 2, 25 PC, GC on snap."
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Kinda taking these questions one at a time.
Your conclusion is correct, but you're rationale is a bit suspect.
OK, so from a standard tight end position, A3 manages to get close enough to a sideline to get forced out of bounds by B1. OK, I suppose it could happen, but it is a stretch. No foul by B1. Not sure what you meant by "...assuming A3 returned immediately..." Irrelevant, with regard to B1's block. And, this isn't a kick down, so A3 can return inbounds whenever he wants. We don't know if A3 re-establishes himself inbounds, and we need to know that. If he doesn't re-establish, he isn't eligible, so DPI rules don't apply to him. But, if he has re-established when he is contacted by B3 (and, if we assume "...goes through the back..." means a DPI foul has been committed), then B3 has committed DPI. On those assumptions, no score. Since the previous spot was between the B-17 and the B-2, DPI in the end zone moves the ball to the B-2 (in direct line with the previous spot, laterally), first down. The game clock will start on the snap (due to the apparent touchdown). The play clock is set to 25 seconds, and will start on the referee's signal.

I assumed that since the defender went through his back, he had to to be re-established, I can't envision how else he could play through his back to get to the ball and still be inbounds.

And grateful for the feedback - trying to work through this with supporting references and always learning.  I've got a long long way to go.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2021, 11:56:48 AM »
Is a touchback the exception to the forward-fumble rule (a ball that is fumbled forward is returned to the spot of the fumble)?

Yes, rule 8-6-1-a applies, as rule 7-2-4-b applies only for the ball going OOB between the goal lines.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2021, 01:26:06 PM »
Is a touchback the exception to the forward-fumble rule (a ball that is fumbled forward is returned to the spot of the fumble)? Officially, the forward fumble OB and the 4th down fumble rules are the "exceptions" to the Touchback rule.

Usually, penalty enforcement results in the game clock starting on the ready-for-play signal, unless the result of the play dictates that the clock start on the snap (apparent score, touchback, ball carrier out of bounds in the last 2 minutes of either half), the penalty specifically prescribes that the clock is supposed to start on the snap (delay of game from scrimmage kick formation), or the game clock starts on the snap because the offended team has elected that option (either the trailing team under 2 minutes of either half, or because a 10-second runoff was declined).  Not sure why you offered this statement. As you state, the natural result of the play was a touchback. The touchback governs, in this case, so the game clock will next start on the snap. Now, I will grant you that 3-3-2-d-3 is ambiguous with 3-3-2-d-1, but, trust me, the touchback governs.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2021, 01:36:35 PM »
in my OP I said I couldn't find the rule reference for whether GC starts on snap or the ready, I think that's what he was responding to.


Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2021, 02:06:15 PM »
"3.  Two-Point Try attempt from the B3. QBA1 throws a pass towards Receiver A2 in the end zone. Prior to the pass, Tackle A4 pulled Defensive End B2 to the ground as he reached for A1. The pass is intercepted by B4 in the end zone, and he runs the ball to the B35 where he is tackled. During B4s run, B3 blocked A5 in the back at the B15.

The end result of the play is an interception by B returned to the B35.  We have a holding foul on A4, and a block in the back on B3.  8-3-4-c states:  If both teams foul during the down (yes) and Team B had not fouled before the change of possession (also yes), the fouls cancel, the down is not repeated, and the try is over."
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Your rationale is good enough, but, as a matter of practice in responding to rule questions, always get in the habit of offering a ruling in form of possession/down/distance/yard line/game clock/play clock, i.e., (in this case): A, Kickoff, A-35, free kick rules (25). In other examples, it might be something like: A, 2/20, A-30, ready (25), or B, 1/10, B-25, snap (40 and running). After the ruling, then offer your rationale.

"We have a holding foul..."  Try to avoid using the expression, "We have..." when discussing or announcing penalties. Yes, you will hear some NCAA R's use that expression during their announcements, but that is something CFO folks have been trying to eliminate for quite some time. Also, avoid, "...on the (offense/defense)," or, "...by the (offense/defense)."
Keep it simple. "Holding. Number 87. Offense. Ten yard penalty. 3rd down." The periods represent a pause in the announcement.



« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:15:29 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2021, 02:32:36 PM »
"4.  With 0:45 remaining in the first half, Team A leads 21-13, and kicks off from the A35. Team A players on the right side of the kicker were never inside the 9-yard marks. B1 catches the ball at the B5 and runs the length of the field to the A4 where he fumbles the ball into the end zone. A8 recovers the ball in the end zone and runs to the B45 where B3 tackles him at the sideline (0:04).

The end result of the play is a fumble recovery by A8, returned to the B45.  The lone foul on the kick is an illegal kick formation (not sure if that is the correct name, just what Im using here). 6-1-2-c-5 states that All players of Team A must have been between the nine-yard marks after the ready-for-play signal.  The penalty will be 5 yards, and rekick."
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Wow. a 41-second continuous action down. Gotta be a record, in the absence of multiple backward passes. Also, some really poor officiating.
To address the given situation: A, kickoff, A-30, free kick timing (25). Your rationale is correct, and your description is good for reporting to the referee, although an announcement would simply be: "Illegal formation. Number 55. Kicking team. He failed to move inside the 9 yard marks prior to the ball being kicked. Five yard penalty from the previous kickoff spot. Repeat the kickoff."
However, don't let this happen. As a sideline guy, move in to the 9 yard marks, and get all the A players inside of you, until the R sounds his whistle. Then hustle to your pre-kick position. You'll never have to deal with this.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2021, 03:23:56 PM »
Funny you mention that last bit - had someone share that with me last year, and the very next week (we don't use set crews, so all new personnel) was told it's not an authorized TASO mechanic.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2021, 03:48:39 PM »
Funny you mention that last bit - had someone share that with me last year, and the very next week (we don't use set crews, so all new personnel) was told it's not an authorized TASO mechanic.

Well, I will tell you now that, as one that co-authored the original TASO 5-Official Mechanics Manual, no, that specific technique does not appear in the manual. But, that doesn't mean it is not to be permitted. This is no different than making sure both teams have exactly 11 players on kickoffs. No, that isn't in the manual either - especially if they don't have enough. But good officials will not let that happen. Likewise, good officials will not have a Team A illegal formation foul for failing to move inside the 9 yard marks during the RFP period.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2021, 04:42:20 PM »
5.  First-and-Sixteen on 50. QBA1 hands off to Back A2 at the A47, and A2 runs to the B37 where B1 grabs him at the side inside his collar, and immediately throws him forward to the ground at the B36.

9-1-15 reads All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, the nameplate area, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down.  By the letter of the rule, this is not a foul. Depending on what it looked like and the interpretation of 'pulling the ball carrier down vs throwing him forward', I could support a flag for this.  A 1/10 at B35, PC 25, GC on snap.
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I will pass on offering a ruling on this one. Who knows what the author wants? This is one that has as many interpretations as there are NCAA coordinators. Some are strict constitutionalists, and will tell you the defender must pull the BC BACKWARD and down to the ground. Some will say just down - not necessarily to the ground. And not necessarily backward. Some will say any pulling action at the collar is enough. Better to change rule to simply say that the collar can't be grasped, period.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2021, 05:16:56 PM »

I wasn't sure if Play 1 was a touchback, which was why I specified that the next play would be an untimed down. If not a touchback, the result of the play would have been a change of possession due to the fourth-down fumble rule leaving the ball short of the line to gain.

I believe that dammitbobby was asking a more generic question about clock status after penalties, so that is why I gave the more detailed answer.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2021, 06:55:03 PM »
in my OP I said I couldn't find the rule reference for whether GC starts on snap or the ready, I think that's what he was responding to.

Got it, now. Sorry. Didnt quite catch the question regarding the clock and penalty enforcement. Good answer.

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Re: Some quiz questions
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2021, 08:25:17 PM »
Well, I will tell you now that, as one that co-authored the original TASO 5-Official Mechanics Manual, no, that specific technique does not appear in the manual. But, that doesn't mean it is not to be permitted. This is no different than making sure both teams have exactly 11 players on kickoffs. No, that isn't in the manual either - especially if they don't have enough. But good officials will not let that happen. Likewise, good officials will not have a Team A illegal formation foul for failing to move inside the 9 yard marks during the RFP period.

Preventive officiating
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