Batting a ball forward as a way to transfer a ball

[Farooq]

I just wanted to satisfy my curiousity about strange play technique which I knew from one coach who is known for his love of experiments and crazy ideas. Cant name him though. He offered another way to transfer a football and assured that it must be legal in International rules (IFAF = NCAA)
He suggested that batting loose ball forward on teammate as a pass is legal thing and referred to rulebook article below.
He offered first to drop a ball without throwing and then hit it with a palm forward on teammate. Technique similar to australian football except that they bat a ball in possession which is illegal in american football, thats why he decided to drop ball a little bit (fumble) first and only then hit it. According to rulebook its not a pass. It is also can be legal since intentional bat occured
a) not in end-zone
b) executed by eligible player
c) loose ball batted, not in player's possession
d) not after backward pass
Iam confused
SECTION 4. Batting and Kicking
Batting a Loose Ball
ARTICLE 1. a. While a pass is in flight, only a player who is eligible to touch
the ball may bat it in any direction (Exception: Rule 9-4-2).
b. Any player may block a scrimmage kick in the field of play or the end zone.
c. No player shall bat other loose balls forward in the field of play or in any
direction if the ball is in the end zone (Rule 2-2-3-a) (Exception: Rule 6-3-
11) (A.R. 6-3-11-I, A.R. 9-4-1-I-X and A.R. 10-2-2-II).
PENALTY—10 yards and loss of down for fouls by Team A if the loss
of down is not in conflict with other rules [S31 and S9]
[Exception: No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal
scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone].
Batting a Backward Pass in Flight
ARTICLE 2. A backward pass in flight shall not be batted forward by the
passing team.
PENALTY—10 yards [S31].
Batting Ball in Possession
ARTICLE 3. A ball in player possession may not be batted forward by a player
of that team.
 

[Legacy Zebra]

He wants to bat the ball forward to a teammate? I hope the coach didn’t waste too much time on this idea because it’s pretty clearly illegal since it is literally just batting a fumble forward. This is not a pass, as you indicated, so paragraph doesn’t even apply. We should be looking at paragraph c. Because it’s not a pass or scrimmage kick, this falls under “other loose balls”. And no player may bat a fumble forward. Ever. Doesn’t matter who fumbled, doesn’t matter who bats it.

Illegal batting, 10 yards and loss of down.

As a side note, because this is not a pass, your (b) is irrelevant. There are no “eligible players” when it comes to fumbles.

[Farooq]

This coach perhaps applied c) only to loose ball in end-zone.

[HLinNC]

c) only to loose ball in end-zone.

Mis-read: In the field of play you can not bat other loose balls (a fumble) forward.  In the end zone you can not bat other loose balls in ANY direction.

[AlUpstateNY]

Mis-read: In the field of play you can not bat other loose balls (a fumble) forward.  In the end zone you can not bat other loose balls in ANY direction.

This "Coach" sounds a lot like a wanna-be lawyer, who would only insure his client's getting extra long jail time.

[ElvisLives]

Farooq, you don't need to tell us his name. We don't want to know his name. And, if you don't tell us, we'll never know his name, because he won't make it to any level high enough to become noticed by anybody.
I remember some special teams coaches (all of them in California, curiously) that were constantly trying to be 'creative' with the kicking game rules. They had no luck, and I don't remember their names, either.

[dammitbobby]

This coach perhaps applied c) only to loose ball in end-zone.

Tell him the rule is made more clear, if he inserts a comma between the sentence clauses:  No player shall bat other loose balls forward in the field of play COMMA, or in any direction if the ball is in the end zone

[HLinNC]

This "Coach" sounds a lot like

A coach.

[refbuz]

He suggested that batting loose ball forward on teammate as a pass is legal thing and referred to rulebook article below.
He offered first to drop a ball without throwing and then hit it with a palm forward on teammate. Technique similar to australian football except that they bat a ball in possession which is illegal in american football, thats why he decided to drop ball a little bit (fumble) first and only then hit it. According to rulebook its not a pass. It is also can be legal since intentional bat occured

Farooq, as always Rule 2 is your friend here.  2-19-1 clearly states passes must be thrown, there are no exceptions.  Dropping the ball is not throwing it. 

SECTION 19. Passes
Passing
ARTICLE 1.
Passing the ball is throwing it. A pass continues to be a pass until it is caught or intercepted by a player or the ball becomes dead.

Hope this helps.

[Jimjim09]

what does executed by an eligible player mean? who is not eligible?

[Farooq]

Please help me to clarify
Batting Ball in Possession ARTICLE 3. A ball in player possession may not be batted forward by a player of that team.

Does this rule apply only to another player who bats the ball forward from teammate possessing the ball? Or even player who carries the ball can't bat it forward himself?
I encountered different interpretations such as  https://kvfoa.org/clinician/kvfoa.org/2017%20Batting%20Rules.pdf

[ElvisLives]

Please help me to clarify
Batting Ball in Possession ARTICLE 3. A ball in player possession may not be batted forward by a player of that team.

Does this rule apply only to another player who bats the ball forward from teammate possessing the ball? Or even player who carries the ball can't bat it forward himself?
I encountered different interpretations such as  https://kvfoa.org/clinician/kvfoa.org/2017%20Batting%20Rules.pdf

Hmm. The document you reference is very misleading. For example, it states that a fumble in flight can't be batted forward. Well, yeah, that's true, but a fumble that has touched the ground may not be batted forward, either. The statement makes it sound like only fumbles in flight can't be batted forward. Very misleading, although, technically, not wrong.
To try to answer your direct question (I think), for NCAA, a ball in player possession may not be batted forward by ANY player of that team, including the ball carrier. See 9-4-2.
 

[Farooq]

To try to answer your direct question (I think), for NCAA, a ball in player possession may not be batted forward by ANY player of that team, including the ball carrier. See 9-4-2.
 

It practically means that ball carrier can't hold a ball with one hand and punch it underneath with another like in australian football.
Look at this technique  https://youtu.be/MWeHdGS-MiY?t=21

[ElvisLives]

Yes. That is exactly what it means.

[Kalle]

As others have said, batting a ball in possession or a fumble forward is illegal, and for this technique to be legal it would have to be a pass, which needs to be thrown, not eg. dropped. My question though is simply: why? Why not just throw a pass? You won't be fooling any defenders, they will be going for the ball anyway.

[Farooq]

As others have said, batting a ball in possession or a fumble forward is illegal, and for this technique to be legal it would have to be a pass, which needs to be thrown, not eg. dropped. My question though is simply: why? Why not just throw a pass? You won't be fooling any defenders, they will be going for the ball anyway.

Because such bat from the video technically is not a pass (act of throwing is needed for being a pass) everyone can catch it including a lineman. Yes, NCAA rules seemingly prohibit forward bat for all players of team in possession. But NFL rulebook forbids only bat forward on loose ball, no rule about batting ball in possession. It practically means that NFL QB can execute australian bat out of Shotgun say on Center who leaks downfield after Run fake.

*In the video above australian football player doesn't drop the ball. He punches while holding ball with another hand

[ElvisLives]

As others have said, batting a ball in possession or a fumble forward is illegal, and for this technique to be legal it would have to be a pass, which needs to be thrown, not eg. dropped. My question though is simply: why? Why not just throw a pass? You won't be fooling any defenders, they will be going for the ball anyway.

At some point in the past, a team(s) would set up for a field goal attempt on a 4th and short situation, but bat the snap forward across the NZ and beyond the LTG (sometimes into the end zone) and have their own players recover it. Similarly, the kicker would catch the snap, and bat it forward with one hand, while holding it in the other hand (like rugby), for the same reason. So, they put these rules into place.
Obviously, passing the ball forward would not allow that to work.

[Farooq]

At some point in the past, a team(s) would set up for a field goal attempt on a 4th and short situation, but bat the snap forward across the NZ and beyond the LTG (sometimes into the end zone) and have their own players recover it. Similarly, the kicker would catch the snap, and bat it forward with one hand, while holding it in the other hand (like rugby), for the same reason. So, they put these rules into place.
Obviously, passing the ball forward would not allow that to work.

Thank you for clarification and this historical reference. I didn't know that such play designs existed in football. So I wondered why this rule with forward bat in possession was installed in NCAA. Very interesting

[Ralph Damren]

A flashback to the 70's.....

Jimmy Carter was president and Jack Bicknell was football coach at U-Maine. UNH (arch rival) was coming to town.

FIELD CONDITIONS : rain + snow = mud

(1) Game remained scoreless until 4th, sitting with some ole' frat bros we drank a fifth .

(2) Maine lined up to try a 30 yard field  goal  .

(3) Kicker was an excellent vollyball player  .

(4) Holder tossed ball up -backward pass - kicker spiked it toward end zone .

(5) UNH d-back watch ball bounce toward end zone 

(6) Maine's TE  strolled down, scooped up loose ball and stepped into end zone  (5 man crew back then)

(7) We all leapped to our feet...some fell...alcohol may have been a contributing factor 

(8)  Next day NFL Today (or what ever it was yesterday) ran this as 'College Play of the Day' 

EPILOGUE: NCAA and NFHS  quickly pass rule that makes it illegal to bat a backward pass forward. Coach Bicknell leaves Maine for Boston College and Doug Flute.

[Farooq]

Wow, I thought this relates to distant past before WW1 and maybe before forward pass era, not 70s. Would like to see video clip with this play

[Farooq]

(3) Kicker was an excellent vollyball player  .

(4) Holder tossed ball up -backward pass - kicker spiked it toward end zone .

Rules back then didnt allow modern fake field goals where kicker just catches a snap and throws the ball usually on released End or Wing, right?

[ElvisLives]

Rules back then didnt allow modern fake field goals where kicker just catches a snap and throws the ball usually on released End or Wing, right?

Essentially correct. The ability for a holder, with knee down, to pass or hand the ball, or rise and run, was not permitted until Rogers Redding was Sec-Ed of the Rules Committee, which began in the early 2000s.

[Ralph Damren]

Rules back then didnt allow modern fake field goals where kicker just catches a snap and throws the ball usually on released End or Wing, right?

I'm not aware of any restriction on the kicker throwing a pass. The coach's idea was to pretend it was just a lousey field goal attempt UNTIL a stroll;ing TE proved the difference. Ther were a couple of games still on his schedule and the coach said that anytime they sent the FG unit in the defense would yell : " Watch for the bat,WATCH FOR THE BAT !!'. He later revieled that he had a plan B :

(1) Holder would flip ball into air;
(2) kicker would fake a bat;
(3) holder would then rise and grab the ball;
(4) holder would then throw forward pass to TE.

.....He never had time to use it  :'(.

Coach Bicknell had much better success at Boston College, as did former coaches Kirk Ferentz and Buddy Teavens have at Iowa & Dartmouth

 

[peterparsons]

At some point in the past, a team(s) would set up for a field goal attempt on a 4th and short situation, but bat the snap forward across the NZ and beyond the LTG (sometimes into the end zone) and have their own players recover it. Similarly, the kicker would catch the snap, and bat it forward with one hand, while holding it in the other hand (like rugby), for the same reason. So, they put these rules into place.
Obviously, passing the ball forward would not allow that to work.

This act is a loss of player possession and, if it's not a pass or a kick or a successful handing, by rule in the NFL, it's a fumble. If it's a deliberate act, it's an intentional fumble, and if the ball goes forward from an intentional fumble, the NFL Rule Book (3-5) says, by rule, it's a forward pass.

[ElvisLives]

This act is a loss of player possession and, if it's not a pass or a kick or a successful handing, by rule in the NFL, it's a fumble. If it's a deliberate act, it's an intentional fumble, and if the ball goes forward from an intentional fumble, the NFL Rule Book (3-5) says, by rule, it's a forward pass.

NCAA has no such rule or interpretation. The status of the loose ball (batted while in player possession, causing the loss of player possession) is a fumble. And, if it is forward, it is a foul for illegal batting. Actually, a worse outcome than the NFL, considering the opponents could catch/recover the loose ball, or they'll be penalized for the Illegal Batting, which includes LOD. Neither one good.