End of first half BYU at Stanford

[ump_ben]

Stanford player goes down for a first down with 1 second left on the clock and no timeouts left.  Clock goes to zero as the wing is signaling to stop the clock.  Hard to tell exactly what happened as the broadcast wasn't great but 30 seconds later the ball still hasn't been snapped and the clock hasn't run as players are lining up.  BYU ends up calling a timeout to complain that the kick shouldn't be allowed and then Stanford hits a 54 yard FG.  An acquaintance in the stadium says that Stanford set up for a field goal while the clock was being reset.  Seems like Stanford got an advantage not intended by rule from the clock operator not getting a clean stop but I'm not exactly sure how it could be fixed. (White hat should not have put more time on the clock perhaps?  Replay couldn't have fixed this so he shouldn't have.)  But once the WH decides a second has to go on, there's no way to keep them from snapping the ball and getting a free timeout?

[Kalle]

This is a really annoying sequence of events comparable to an inadvertent whistle, where you likely end up screwing one or the other team. There is no direct rule support to a runoff in this situation (there is for IR), and I personally would be really hard pressed to use rule 3-4-3 "The referee has broad authority in the timing of the game" to say that team A could not possibly have both substituted the kicker and the holder and lined up to be ready to snap immediately after the ball had been spotted. Yes, it is very likely that team A cannot do this, but if the kicker and the holder were ready to come in immediately it is in the realm of possible things...

[AlUpstateNY]

Stanford player goes down for a first down with 1 second left on the clock and no timeouts left.  Clock goes to zero as the wing is signaling to stop the clock.  Hard to tell exactly what happened as the broadcast wasn't great but 30 seconds later the ball still hasn't been snapped and the clock hasn't run as players are lining up.  BYU ends up calling a timeout to complain that the kick shouldn't be allowed and then Stanford hits a 54 yard FG.  An acquaintance in the stadium says that Stanford set up for a field goal while the clock was being reset.  Seems like Stanford got an advantage not intended by rule from the clock operator not getting a clean stop but I'm not exactly sure how it could be fixed. (White hat should not have put more time on the clock perhaps?  Replay couldn't have fixed this so he shouldn't have.)  But once the WH decides a second has to go on, there's no way to keep them from snapping the ball and getting a free timeout?

Are you serious?  Presuming the Official, who signaled the TO for 1st down was watching the clock as he did so, he would have observed whether, or not, the clock stopped INSTANTLY on his signal & whether, or not, some fraction of that last second remained.  Apparently, he reviewed his observation with the Referee.  Therefore BYU called their TO with time remaining (as judged by the covering Official).  Presumably the Referee advised the BYU coach of his judgment, and regardless of what the stadium clock showed, the Referee ruled some millisecond of time remained until the following Snap. 

Sounds like the crew did their job in exercising appropriate judgment to insure neither team gained an advantage, or suffered a disadvantage.  Good job.

[Kalle]

Sounds like the crew did their job in exercising appropriate judgment to insure neither team gained an advantage, or suffered a disadvantage.  Good job.

So you don't see any advantage to team A if instead of 5-7 seconds they get 30+ seconds to substitute a field goal unit in?

[dammitbobby]

Are you serious?  Presuming the Official, who signaled the TO for 1st down was watching the clock as he did so, he would have observed whether, or not, the clock stopped INSTANTLY on his signal & whether, or not, some fraction of that last second remained.  Apparently, he reviewed his observation with the Referee.  Therefore BYU called their TO with time remaining (as judged by the covering Official).  Presumably the Referee advised the BYU coach of his judgment, and regardless of what the stadium clock showed, the Referee ruled some millisecond of time remained until the following Snap. 

Sounds like the crew did their job in exercising appropriate judgment to insure neither team gained an advantage, or suffered a disadvantage.  Good job.

As described, BYU didn't call their timeout until it was obvious that the clock was not going to run.  It should have been wound as soon as the officials got in position with the ball set, since Stanford did not have any timeouts left, or any way to stop the clock without a runoff.  Even after getting the time back on the clock, it should go on RFP.

I wonder if BYU challenged that there was no time left, and got charged a timeout even though they shouldn't have been able to challenge due to time (I think).  Although I would think replay would be able to review (but not as a challenge) since clock was all zeros.

[Kalle]

Interestingly if you go and apply the logic in the IR rule 12-3-6-d-2, you could argue that by rule the gamehalf should have been over and no time should have been put back to the clock.

"If time expires in a half, and the clock would start on the Referee’s signal after review, there must be at least 3 seconds remaining when the ball should have been declared dead to restore time to the clock. With 2 seconds or 1 second remaining on the clock, the half is over unless Team A has a time out remaining (This does not impact situations when the clock is stopped and will remain stopped until the snap such as an incomplete pass or a ball carrier out of bounds.)."

[ump_ben]

Bobby: As described, BYU didn't call their timeout until it was obvious that the clock was not going to run.  It should have been wound as soon as the officials got in position with the ball set, since Stanford did not have any timeouts left, or any way to stop the clock without a runoff.  Even after getting the time back on the clock, it should go on RFP.

I wasn't trying to describe that; it was clear the clock hadn't run but I believe it was still going to start on the RFP.  It wasn't clear why the RFP hadn't been given though.  BYU definitely didn't call their timeout anywhere close to when the teams got lined up.  The broadcast crew didn't do a great job of showing what was going on so it's not clear how much the officials conferenced or even when (that) the announcement was made.

Kalle: Yes, it is very likely that team A cannot do this, but if the kicker and the holder were ready to come in immediately it is in the realm of possible things...

Actually that slightly insulting rant that Upstate posted, he makes a small good point that I think is relevant here.  Football clocks don't show fractions of seconds.  It's therefore in the realm of possible things that had the clock started correctly, it was in fact impossible for this to happen.  There could have been less time on the clock then the reaction time to the whistle (because 0:01 showing on the clock)  So if we reset the clock to 0:01 we may be adding up to a nanosecond less than a full second to the clock.

Kalle: There is no direct rule support to a runoff in this situation (there is for IR)
Bobby:   Although I would think replay would be able to review (but not as a challenge) since clock was all zeros.

Actually, the rule is that replay can't step in here.  By rule, replay can't put 1 second back on the clock unless the next play would start on the snap which is exactly to prevent them from stepping in and doing this.  I don't believe they could go to zero even if it was obvious that time should have expired but maybe I'm missing something in the rule.  (Egregious error perhaps, say the USC Utah interception play from a few weeks ago had been a clock mistake instead of an inadvertent whistle?)

Upstate:  Are you serious?

Yes, and in the future if you think I'm not you might want to reread my post instead of thinking that I couldn't possibly have a point and implying that in the tone of your reply.  Bobby and Kalle have already pointed out what you missed.

[ump_ben]

Interestingly if you go and apply the logic in the IR rule 12-3-6-d-2, you could argue that by rule the game should have been over

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to when we cross posted. 

Half not game, btw, not that it matters at all for discussion purposes but in case someone is trying to find the clip to watch.

[AlUpstateNY]

Stanford player goes down for a first down with 1 second left on the clock and no timeouts left.  Clock goes to zero as the wing is signaling to stop the clock.  Hard to tell exactly what happened as the broadcast wasn't great but 30 seconds later the ball still hasn't been snapped and the clock hasn't run as players are lining up.  BYU ends up calling a timeout to complain that the kick shouldn't be allowed and then Stanford hits a 54 yard FG.  An acquaintance in the stadium says that Stanford set up for a field goal while the clock was being reset.  Seems like Stanford got an advantage not intended by rule from the clock operator not getting a clean stop but I'm not exactly sure how it could be fixed. (White hat should not have put more time on the clock perhaps?  Replay couldn't have fixed this so he shouldn't have. But once the WH decides a second has to go on, there's no way to keep them from snapping the ball and getting a free timeout?

Sorry, I wasn't watching the game, so I could only go by your reportage.  Clearly an exciting (Clusterf***) moment ensued.  If I follow your narration 1. "Clock goes to zero "as the wing is signalling to stop the clock". 2. "Hard to tell exactly what happened as the broadcast wasn't that great...". 3."BYU CALLS A T/O to complain....." . 4. "An ACQUAINTANCE in the stadium says the kick shouldn't be allowed." 5. "SEEMS LIKE got an advantage not intended by rule...."6. "Replay couldn't have fixed this so he (Referee) shouldn't have." 7. "But once the WH decides a second has to go on, there's no way to keep them from snapping & getting a free T/O".

Seems like a lot of "By gosh, by guess/ by golly" in an EXTREMELY exciting/confusing/conflicting moment.  The Referee is solely empowered to declare the ball RFP, WHEN HE (ALONE) decides the game is actually "READY TO GO", before which Stanford requests a charged TO (presuming they still had one to burn).

As suggested, presuming the Referee got with the wing official, and reviewed and confirmed the ACTUAL sequence of events regarding when HE signaled the clock to stop, assessed all of the contradictions, understanding that review/replay was NOT an available option made, in consideration of ALL he determined  ACTUALLY happened, regardless of external pressures, rendered his CONSIDERED/DIFFICULT judgment. 

All things considered, "Job well done".

[ump_ben]

Al quoted me as: "An ACQUAINTANCE in the stadium says the kick shouldn't be allowed."   

I'm not sure why that's in quotation marks because I didn't write it.  I wrote that there was an announcement during which Stanford sent on their field goal kicker which wasn't on the broadcast.  My actual quote "An acquaintance in the stadium says that Stanford set up for a field goal while the clock was being reset."

Al wrote: which Stanford requests a charged TO (presuming they still had one to burn).

If Stanford had a timeout to use this isn't an interesting situation at all.  Replay could put time back on the clock in that situation and Stanford could call their timeout.  (That's in what I wrote by the way that they had no timeouts).

Al wrote:  All things considered, "Job well done".

Well certainly not by the clock operator(*) whose slow reaction time resulted in three points for the offense.  As to whether it was a job well done by the WH, I think that's a more interesting discussion point.  As Kalle said, like an IW the WH may have been compelled to let the field goal happen.  In that case, good job for following the book but you're back to my initial point, do the rules actually require this or was there any loophole to get out of it. 
(*) But this is a little unfair to the clock operator.  In the olden days, the clock expired we wouldn't even think about resetting.  Then came replay and some end of half heroics that resulted in plays.  So we changed the replay rule and probably should have got the regular rule at the same time.  I'm pretty sure at some point in this forum somebody has written that the best solution for plays like this is for the clock operator to make sure it either stops at 2 or zero.
To me on this play the result the rules should require is that the half is over.  (Kalle's point about some exceptionally disciplined team being able to pull this off not withstanding).  The only interesting question is whether they actually do.

[AlUpstateNY]

Al quoted me as: "An ACQUAINTANCE in the stadium says the kick shouldn't be allowed."   

I'm not sure why that's in quotation marks because I didn't write it.  I wrote that there was an announcement during which Stanford sent on their field goal kicker which wasn't on the broadcast.  My actual quote "An acquaintance in the stadium says that Stanford set up for a field goal while the clock was being reset."

Al wrote: which Stanford requests a charged TO (presuming they still had one to burn).

If Stanford had a timeout to use this isn't an interesting situation at all.  Replay could put time back on the clock in that situation and Stanford could call their timeout.  (That's in what I wrote by the way that they had no timeouts).

Al wrote:  All things considered, "Job well done".

Well certainly not by the clock operator(*) whose slow reaction time resulted in three points for the offense.  As to whether it was a job well done by the WH, I think that's a more interesting discussion point.  As Kalle said, like an IW the WH may have been compelled to let the field goal happen.  In that case, good job for following the book but you're back to my initial point, do the rules actually require this or was there any loophole to get out of it. 
(*) But this is a little unfair to the clock operator.  In the olden days, the clock expired we wouldn't even think about resetting.  Then came replay and some end of half heroics that resulted in plays.  So we changed the replay rule and probably should have got the regular rule at the same time.  I'm pretty sure at some point in this forum somebody has written that the best solution for plays like this is for the clock operator to make sure it either stops at 2 or zero.
To me on this play the result the rules should require is that the half is over.  (Kalle's point about some exceptionally disciplined team being able to pull this off not withstanding).  The only interesting question is whether they actually do.

Sorry Ben,

As I stated, "I didn't see the game", not that my having done so would have necessarily changed anything.  There was a Bang-Bang finish to a hotly contested, important game.  From the reportage, it seems the Officiating Crew (likely including the "Clock Operator-remotely) were quickly involved, the Referee took the opportunity to review the critical details with the appropriate teammates, assessed the facts and rendered a thoughtful decision.  That's what we're expected to do, even in extremely difficult situations, so I maintain my "Good job" assessment.

I presume there has been considerable supervisory reviews already conducted since, but am not aware of any announcement of changes. or disciplinary actions.  I'm reminded, "Opinions are like "anal orifices", everyone has one and it's likely different from everyone else".