Author Topic: What would your ruling be?  (Read 747 times)

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Offline ElvisLives

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What would your ruling be?
« on: December 10, 2022, 11:43:59 AM »
I won't influence anybody with any ruling possibilities (which could include taking no action). I just wonder what y'all would rule.


Scenario A

2/10, A-40, 5:00 (2), A=7, B=10.
Just prior to the snap, B99 is between the A-41 and A-42, but has begun to run forward. Just after the snap, B99 steps into the neutral zone, and jumps directly over guard A66, who has at least one hand on the ground attempting to "crab block" nose guard B70. Making no contact with any opponent, B99 lands with both feet immediately behind A66, and continues moving directly toward A11 (who received the snap). B99 is able to grasp A11 and pull him, in possession of the ball, to the ground at the A-35.

Ruling:


Scenario B

2/10, A-40, 5:00 (2), A=7, B=10.
Just prior to the snap, B99 is between the A-41 and A-42, but has begun to run forward. Just after the snap, B99 steps into the neutral zone, and jumps directly over guard A66, who had been in a three point stance at the snap, but has lifted his hand and is beginning to charge ahead, but slightly to his left to block nose guard B70 at the thigh. Making no contact with any opponent, B99 lands with both feet immediately behind A66, and continues moving directly toward A11 (who received the snap). B99 is able to grasp A11 and pull him, in possession of the ball, to the ground at the A-35.

Ruling:


Scenario C
4/10, B-20, 3:00 (4), A=7, B=10.
Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation. Just prior to the snap, B99 is between the A-41 and A-42, but has begun to run forward. Just after the snap, B99 steps into the neutral zone, and jumps directly over guard A66, who has at least one hand on the ground, holding his ground. Making no contact with any opponent, B99 lands with both feet immediately behind A66, and continues moving directly toward A11, who received the snap and is placing the ball on the ground for an apparent field goal attempt by A3. B99 lunges forward with arms outstretched as A3 kicks the ball. B99 fails to touch the ball (or any player), and the field goal attempt is successful.

Ruling:

Offline Kalle

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Re: What would your ruling be?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2022, 12:41:49 PM »
I guess we are looking at hurdling and leaping here. I'll tackle the easy one first. Scenario B is pretty obviously hurdling assuming that B99 jumps with one foot forward (don't really see how he could manage the action described here otherwise). 15 yards and auto 1st, so 1/10 B-45.

Considering that hurdling is a safety foul, I would support flagging scenario A as hurdling. It is highly unlikely that a team A lineman would keep a hand on the ground after the snap, so I would think that the intent of the rule is to make this action hurdling. 1/10 B-45.

Now scenario C is interesting if you disagree with me on scenario A (if you agree, then this too is at least hurdling). Does the leaping rule intend to prevent all jumps before the kick or only jumps actually aimed to block the kick? I would read the language to mean the latter, so I would say that this is not leaping.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: What would your ruling be?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2022, 02:28:27 PM »
I guess we are looking at hurdling and leaping here. I'll tackle the easy one first. Scenario B is pretty obviously hurdling assuming that B99 jumps with one foot forward (don't really see how he could manage the action described here otherwise). 15 yards and auto 1st, so 1/10 B-45.

Considering that hurdling is a safety foul, I would support flagging scenario A as hurdling. It is highly unlikely that a team A lineman would keep a hand on the ground after the snap, so I would think that the intent of the rule is to make this action hurdling. 1/10 B-45.

Now scenario C is interesting if you disagree with me on scenario A (if you agree, then this too is at least hurdling). Does the leaping rule intend to prevent all jumps before the kick or only jumps actually aimed to block the kick? I would read the language to mean the latter, so I would say that this is not leaping.

Kalle,
You picked up on the crux of the issue, and I would expect nothing less from you. The crux is really in Scenario C, which I'll get to in a moment.
I very deliberately wrote the scenarios to be specific as to whether A66 was, or was not, "on his feet" when B99 committed his jumping action. So, as unlikely as it may be, for the purpose if this discussion, his hand was either on the ground, or not on the ground, as listed in the scenarios. The difference that makes is that this distinguishes whether he is "on his feet," or not, as defined, related to "hurdling."

In A, A66 was clearly NOT on his feet. B99 was able to jump over A66, land, and continue toward A11. By rule, this is not hurdling. And, since there is no kick being attempted, this is not leaping, either. No foul.

In B, A66 was clearly ON his feet. Even though B99 was able to jump over A66 without making contact, this is still a foul for hurdling, as defined.

In C, A66 was, again, NOT on his feet. So, B99's action is not hurdling. But - and this is the crux of the issue - since it is obvious that Team A will attempt a scrimmage kick, does B99's jumping action default to "leaping" in an attempt to block a kick, even though B99 jumps, lands, and continues toward the spot of the hold well before the kick is made?

As you indicate, if the purpose of the leaping rule is 'safety,' I, personally, would think that this is a foul for leaping, because it is obvious a kick will be made. But, perhaps this is a timing issue. If the jump is made well before the kick is attempted, then does the leaping rule NOT apply? If not, then there is no foul in Scenario C.

I have not had any luck getting Shaw to respond to questions this year, so I am not even going to try. But, this is one for Shaw to address.

BTW, Scenario C happened in a Texas High School game this year, which is what is prompting this discussion. So, those of you out there crying "dream play," and "Oh, that will never happen," I can call BS on that.


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: What would your ruling be?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2022, 08:51:51 AM »
I guess we are looking at hurdling and leaping here. I'll tackle the easy one first. Scenario B is pretty obviously hurdling assuming that B99 jumps with one foot forward (don't really see how he could manage the action described here otherwise). 15 yards and auto 1st, so 1/10 B-45.

Considering that hurdling is a safety foul, I would support flagging scenario A as hurdling. It is highly unlikely that a team A lineman would keep a hand on the ground after the snap, so I would think that the intent of the rule is to make this action hurdling. 1/10 B-45.

Now scenario C is interesting if you disagree with me on scenario A (if you agree, then this too is at least hurdling). Does the leaping rule intend to prevent all jumps before the kick or only jumps actually aimed to block the kick? I would read the language to mean the latter, so I would say that this is not leaping.
related


In as much as NFHS: 2-22 HURDLING: states, "Hurdling is an attempt by a player to "JUMP" (hurdle).....", I would agree with your rational assessment of "Scenario C" as also violating the intent of 2-22.

Then again, I 've never been certain whether correctly counting the number of Angels dancing on the head of a pin applied to only those Angels listening to the same music.  Of course  NFHS: 1-1-9" advises; "video replay or TV monitoring equipment by game officials in making any decision relating to the game is prohibited, unless used in compliance with Rule 1-3-7 .

How was the Texas High School situation, described in "Scenario C" actually decided under their rules?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 08:57:16 AM by AlUpstateNY »