Question of the day

[ElvisLives]

Questions stolen (but edited) from other sources (so sue me).

No. 1
4/10, A-10, 0:08 (4), A=17, B=17.
B99 catches the legally punted ball at the 50 and advances to the A-20, where A87 trips B99. B99 maintains his balance and continues his advance to the A-10, where he fumbles the ball. A81 recovers the ball inbounds at the A-5, with his knee on the ground. Time in the period expired during the down. During B99’s advance, B77 clipped A55 at the A-20.

In addition to an ultimate ruling, offer an explanation of all options for both teams.
Ruling:

[dammitbobby]

Oof. This one took a while to work through.

The natural result of the play is A recovering a fumble at the A5 with 0:00 remaining.
There are multiple fouls.  During the return, A87 tripped B99, and advanced to the A10 where he fumbled, and was recovered by A. B77 clipped A55 during B’s advance (prior to the fumble) and time expired in Q4.

Both fouls are live ball fouls that occurred in different play segments.

B’s preference would be toreplay 4th down to give them an opportunity to score. For that to occur, they would want the tripping foul enforced, and for A to decline B’s clipping foul, which they likely will not do… but if they did, it would be 4/15 from the A-5, untimed down.

A’s likely preference is to end the half and go to OT. For that to occur, both fouls must be declined (which B will not likely want.)

Outside of either team catering to the wishes of the other, both fouls will offset, with an untimed down.

PC25, GC snap (since ball was kicked previously, and also because untimed down.)


How'd I do?

[ElvisLives]

Let’s see if other folks want to respond before I get deeper into this.

[Legacy Zebra]

The team last in possession did not last gain possession with clean hands. Nobody gets an option, the fouls offset and we replay the down.

[Snapper]

The team last in possession did not last gain possession with clean hands. Nobody gets an option, the fouls offset and we replay the down.

Agreed.  Offset and Extend for an untimed down.

[ElvisLives]

The team last in possession did not last gain possession with clean hands. Nobody gets an option, the fouls offset and we replay the down.

Yeah, I don’t normally try to confuse or trick people, but this time I tried to make it seem complex, when it really isn’t, with the goal of getting everybody to understand the real issues in the situation before making a ruling. Yeah, this is just live-ball fouls by both teams, without any “clean hands” options. Repeat the down at the previous spot, in the extended period, with no options.
Like Legacy said, “clean hands” requires the team last in possession to be free of foul at the time they gain final possession of the ball. That was Team A, and that didn’t happen. Just plain offsetting fouls.

[dammitbobby]

Well, you got me, .  While writing it out I recognized the clean/dirty hands aspect, it just didn't make it into my final answer.  Mine was lengthy because I was trying to cover all the bases, making sure I didn't miss something.

'Offset and replay the down' is a much simpler, elegant answer than what I wrote out, , but ultimately that's what I came up with.

[Legacy Zebra]

The big thing here is that nobody has any options. The fouls offset and down will be replayed and neither team can choose anything else.


Today’s follow up:

The same exact play except instead of A81 recovering the fumble, B11 recovers it. Does this change anything? If so, how?

[dammitbobby]

Nothing changes, practically speaking (the end result will be the same, but A is now the only offended team, and the only team with an option, however unappealing that option may be.)

Team A will decline both fouls to go to OT.  The alternative would be to replay the down, giving B another crack at running the ball back, which A will obviously not want.

[Kalle]

I agree with db's result but not with the reasoning Team B would want to keep the ball for an untimed down after declining the team A foul and having their foul enforced, but team A will thwart that by then declining the team B foul. It is possible that team B would accept offsetting fouls and reply the down, but then team A can simply take a knee instead of having to run any real play.

[dammitbobby]

Good point - I didn't even think about them taking a knee.