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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: TXMike on October 10, 2013, 09:02:50 PM
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1 more reason why we need 7
http://youtu.be/ndwXGG4FCuI (http://youtu.be/ndwXGG4FCuI)
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As RR says, you cannot let the coach get away with acting like that.
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I wonder would happen to a teacher in the classroom who threw down an expensive piece of electronic equipment breaking it into pieces?
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Sometimes we let coaches get away with way too much. I agree with the Bolt on this one. You don't act like that in the History class and you ain't gonna do it out here either.
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I agree that shouldn't have been ignored but as was just explained to me, we pretty much have to let the coaches do and say what they please. My R would've overruled me and waived a flag for that off.
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I would have loved to hear that "explanation"'. Would you share ?
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I agree that shouldn't have been ignored but as was just explained to me, we pretty much have to let the coaches do and say what they please. My R would've overruled me and waived a flag for that off.
You need to find a new R
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I am not sure I have a flag on that. I would want to know what he said to go along with the action -- and whether he repeated it. Coaches are in a high stress environment. As long as they are not profane - make it personal or try to show up the official -- or continue with the actions and comments -- I am likely to overlook a quick outburst where he only damages his own equipment. His actions are not directed at a player -- or even at the officials in my opinion. He is upset with a call. If this happened on the sideline -- after the R made his signals / announcements -- would we flag it then?
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Many of us have or had jobs in VERY high stress situations where lives were on the line. Behaving like this coach would NOT have been overlooked due to the stress.
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Many of us have or had jobs in VERY high stress situations where lives were on the line. Behaving like this coach would NOT have been overlooked due to the stress.
i hear you. But context matters. I would want to know more about the conversation before and during the action.
What doe the NCAA guys say? I have a hard time seeing this flagged on Saturday afternoon.
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#1 it is HS not NCAA.
#2 flagged or not , if you have seen Redding's videos then you would have no doubt about whether it should be flagged
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I'm usually the last person to throw a flag at a coach, but this would get a flag from me. If he threw the headset in or to his team area, I would probably not have a problem.
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I'm usually the last person to throw a flag at a coach, but this would get a flag from me. If he threw the headset in or to his team area, I would probably not have a problem.
So now this is a problem because the officials allowed the coach to wander out to the middle of the field instead of walking him back to the sideline for any discussion. That was kind of my issue. We allowed (invited) him out to the middle of the field to be part of a discussion. If this is not a flag on the sideline -- it should not be a flag in the middle of the field on a coach -- so long as he did not curse, says something personal, or show up the officials -- which I do not think he was doing -- then I am not sure we can put a flag down there.
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It was explained at the state meeting that state legislators are already looking at creating laws if we as officials don't put a stop to this stuff. They told us what was already stated, that their behavior should be no different than in the classroom. It all falls under the anti-bullying stuff. If we don't fix it from within, then those on the outside (government) will is what we were told.
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That head set about hits one of our guys?! Good enough this should be a USC on him. Write it up and send it in.
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The other coach behaved. Shouldn't he be rewàrded for that by punishing the bad behavior? When it happens on the sideline and we are not there then it is away to say we did not hear nor see anything. But kinda hard to say that in this situation.
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We are somewhat culpable for allowing (inviting) coach onto the field. It started to look like he was part of the officiating crew decision discussion he was there so long. This should never happen. When the R needs to report to him, he'll do that on the sideline. L should have ensured coach stayed off the field.
None-the-less, this cannot be tolerated.
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The coaches admin needs to excuse him from the game. Makes ashamed to be a teacher.
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Hard to believe anyone can view the video and not think HC is trying to show us up.
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bama - do you work any other sports?
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bama - do you work any other sports?
Baseball & buckets.
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I have never heard a football-only guy talk about things like this in terms of the coach "showing us up". I have been doing this for 24 years and have never had a clinician say a coach should be flagged for "showing us up". But I have heard many guys in other sports talk like that.
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I have never heard a football-only guy talk about things like this in terms of the coach "showing us up". I have been doing this for 24 years and have never had a clinician say a coach should be flagged for "showing us up". But I have heard many guys in other sports talk like that.
Coaches flag themselves. As officials, we just need to know WHEN to enforce it.
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The crew did our profession a disservice by not flagging that, and I'd say that to their face if I had the chance. It is not acceptable to make it harder for the rest of us to correctly penalize a similar action. Grow some pairs, guys.
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You need to find a new R
+1
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I have been doing this for 24 years and have never had a clinician say a coach should be flagged for "showing us up".
Probably because coaches aren't supposed to be on the field. I'm very patient with coaches. If this same action had occurred at the sideline, I doubt I would flag it, much the same as if a baseball coach throws his hat/clipboard while he's in his dugout.
But the fact that this happened in full view of everyone present makes it too hard to ignore, and sends the wrong message if such behavior isn't penalized.
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Don't disagree about the need to flag. Just about the reason for the flag. I see it as warranted , but not because "we don't want to be showed up." That seems to be an officiating philosophy foreign to we who only work football.
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There is less of a problem with this in other high school sports because they use the NFHS rules and they are much more strict about coaching behavior. Here in Texas we have let football coaches get by with way more than coaches in any other sport. Just my two cents a a Texan with 34 years on the field.
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If we don't fix it from within
There's nothing we can do. I have filed several UIL reports on coaches over the years and heard nothing about any of them. In one report I heard back from the then-TASO ED about why I didn't do something when I clearly explained the reason why I didn't in the report. Had it started with "I disagree with your reasoning..." that would have been fine, but it said, "I don't understand why you didn't..."
That, and one other report that Bud Alexander responded on were the only 2 reports out of about a dozen or so (mostly player ejections and weather situations, but a few coaches) that I have heard anything on. Nothing from the UIL.
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This is what you get when you allow coaches to pick their officials. Not flagging this coach might get this crew a big playoff game!!!
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I guarantee you THAT was not the reason for no flag. The blue team has not had a BIG playoff game in decades and likely will not have one in the forseeable future. The crew can be rightfully questioned for the lack of the flag but when it comes to why they did not, their integrity is the last thing you should question.
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There's nothing we can do. I have filed several UIL reports on coaches over the years and heard nothing about any of them. In one report I heard back from the then-TASO ED about why I didn't do something when I clearly explained the reason why I didn't in the report. Had it started with "I disagree with your reasoning..." that would have been fine, but it said, "I don't understand why you didn't..."
That, and one other report that Bud Alexander responded on were the only 2 reports out of about a dozen or so (mostly player ejections and weather situations, but a few coaches) that I have heard anything on. Nothing from the UIL.
We had some incident reports done during the scrimmages and the schools did hear from the UIL. Or at least they received a copy of the incident report because the AD, who does not coach, he contacted the head coach and resolved the issue. I'm pretty certain both the AD and Superintendent gets the reports and it's then up the the local ISD to resolve the issue.
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I won't dispute this, but I haven't heard about an official hearing from an AD since about 2006 when an official I worked a basketball game with got a call from an AD after a game fight. The AD was only clarifying who was ejected for fighting -- and the official told him it wasn't a player from his district's school.
I just don't have much faith that the AD -- whether from the school itself or the school district -- is going to do anything when the coach says, "oh, he just got mad at me because I asked him a question and told him I disagreed with his call." Are you going to support a co-worker when he or she tells you something wasn't as bad as reported and you weren't there?
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Just for an out of state perspective (California). If this happen at a game I was working, the coach would have received a USC for throwing the head set down on the field. Same penalty as a player throwing his helmet. The coach would have received a second USC for coming onto the field and arguing the call while we were leaving the field for halftime. Which means he would be staying in the locker room after the half.
CIF has placed an emphasis this year on side line control and coach behavior. We were told that we would not receive play off assignments if we allowed that type of behavior.
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The crew embarrassed themselves and did us all a disservice. That is easily a flag every time.
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The crew embarrassed themselves and did us all a disservice. That is easily a flag every time.
+1
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One thing for sure.......
If you don't flag this type of behavior then Nothing happens to the coach. At least if you flag it and do an incident report there is a chance some additional action will be taken.
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In Texas, there is no rule allowing officials to eject a coach. You can just keep giving him USC penalties.
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In Texas, there is no rule allowing officials to eject a coach. You can just keep giving him USC penalties.
Wow, I guess that's the difference between the NCAA and NFHS codes. Two unsportsmanlike conduct fouls gets you ejected whether its a player or a coach. Coaches have to leave the stadium if ejected. CIF rules mean an ejected coach and player is not allowed to participate the following week either. We rarely have to give a coach a second flag to get them calm down and act civil.
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That is incorrect, Doc. UIL has always said that two UNS fouls means the coach is ejected.
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Where did they say that? There is no UIL exception that says it. Not saying you did not hear it someplace just wondering where? And to be clear, there is nothing that prohibits a coach from being ejected after 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. Our philosophy is that we will not DQ them but they could be if need be. A prime example would be if a coach forcibly contacts an official, even if "only" once, he should be DQ'd.
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Where did they say that? There is no UIL exception that says it. Not saying you did not hear it someplace just wondering where? And to be clear, there is nothing that prohibits a coach from being ejected after 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. Our philosophy is that we will not DQ them but they could be if need be. A prime example would be if a coach forcibly contacts an official, even if "only" once, he should be DQ'd.
I've heard the same thing but it's been a couple years ago. If it wasn't yesterday, I couldn't tell you where I heard it. The message was that the UIL would support an ejection of a coach if we felt he needed to be ejected.
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I don't understand why this took so long to sort out. 60 seconds, maybe 90, make the calls, be done with it.
a) figure out who is in the showers, pronto.
b) figure out who has the PFs
c) figure out who has the USCs
Announce the above, get on with the game.
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Really? I think this video shows how only 5 guys did a great job of handling that tough situation. outside the one player acting like a Manor Road executive, they pretty much kept everthing under control, sorted it out, and by and large got it right. To me, it looked like Mr. L saw what the coach did and for whatever reason didnt flag it. I will say, as soon as I saw the headset thrown I was thinking like most everyone else here...that needs to be a flag. Still, good job overall in this clip
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So what would have happened to a coach acting like this in any other sport in Texas?
How long will football coaches be the sacred cows of the sports world and allowed to wonder and do what they please? As officials we have no one to blame for this but ourselves. Our fear of being scratched or not selected to do big games is a very big part in how we act among coaches. Until UIL steps in and assigns high level playoff games like they do in every other sport, this crap will not change. deadhorse:
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So what would have happened to a coach acting like this in any other sport in Texas?
How long will football coaches be the sacred cows of the sports world and allowed to wonder and do what they please? As officials we have no one to blame for this but ourselves. Our fear of being scratched or not selected to do big games is a very big part in how we act among coaches. Until UIL steps in and assigns high level playoff games like they do in every other sport, this crap will not change. deadhorse:
I don't want the UIL anywhere near playoff assignments -- now you are talking about all kinds of favortism and other issues. As it is now, coaches -- through their network -- have a pretty good idea of who can call a game. I do not have a problem with the coaches getting who they want (and no - I have not worked even a semi-final game). When you are talking about the "high level" games -- I assume you mean later rounds -- and the coaches are already having to request officials outside of their regular chapters.
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In Texas, there is no rule allowing officials to eject a coach. You can just keep giving him USC penalties.
Ask the Granado coach, he's is Austin tomorrow for no rule allowing a coach to be ejected.
I'm sure he will get a pass LOL
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Just got the email from TASO Football association Ken Roan highlighting the video and in no uncertain terms, telling us actions like this must be penalized, every time. He pointed out that it could have been any member of the officiating crew who witnessed the UNS of the coach, not just the R.
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Just thinking a little, how many times a week does this happen out of sight of a camera and it just goes away? And the coach swears up and down he would never do anything like that?
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It is a problem that a flag was not thrown on this behavior. However, regardless of whether a flag was thrown or not, this behavior will continue until the schools themselves decide it is unacceptable and punish the offenders. A meaningless 15 yards at the end of a half isn't a big enough stick.
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So now this is a problem because the officials allowed the coach to wander out to the middle of the field instead of walking him back to the sideline for any discussion. That was kind of my issue. We allowed (invited) him out to the middle of the field to be part of a discussion. If this is not a flag on the sideline -- it should not be a flag in the middle of the field on a coach -- so long as he did not curse, says something personal, or show up the officials -- which I do not think he was doing -- then I am not sure we can put a flag down there.
Who invited him out onto the field? Correct, the officials allowed it and that was their first mistake. They should have IMMEDIATELY walked him back off the field. PERIOD. There was no reason for him to be out there. He was showing up the officials because he was HACKED that his player was ejected. For one, I would have never allowed the coach onto the field, and for an act like that, as a fellow official of mine once told a coach " I will flag you all the way back to the bus" :bOW
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I guarantee you THAT was not the reason for no flag. The blue team has not had a BIG playoff game in decades and likely will not have one in the forseeable future. The crew can be rightfully questioned for the lack of the flag but when it comes to why they did not, their integrity is the last thing you should question.
My comment wasn't directed toward this crew...just disappointed in the overall system we have here.
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My comment wasn't directed toward this crew...just disappointed in the overall system we have here.
I agree. It is a systemic issue.
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I am probably too tolerant of bad coaches on Friday night but I think I would have handled this differently.
1) The discussion and decision should have only included the officials. The coach should have been escorted to the sideline and informed that we would get back to him. If he comes back out, sideline warning.
2) If after the sideline warning, he then throws his headset down at my feet, USC.
3) If he talks to me leaving the field, no problem but he will have to run after my fat butt as I go to the dressing room. But if he catches me and puts his finger in my face as in the video, USC and 15 on the 2nd half kickoff. Plus a verbal commitment to him that any further harassment to me or my crew will be met with an immediate flag (no tolerance) for the remainder of the game.
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I am probably too tolerant of bad coaches on Friday night but I think I would have handled this differently.
1) ... If he comes back out, sideline warning.
2) If after the sideline warning, he then throws his headset down at my feet, USC.
What is a sideline warning?
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It is a mistake. My way of saying, get off the field coach before you get an USC.
Also to TXMIKE's comment about the referee's lack of input on the games score. From rule book.
Winning Team and Final Score
ARTICLE 3. a. The teams shall be awarded points for scoring according to rule
and, unless the game is forfeited, the team having the larger score at the end of
the game shall be the winning team.
b. When the referee declares that the game is ended, the score is final.
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It says the points are awarded "according to rule" so if the rules do not permit 1 point then it is not 1 point, regardless of what the scoreboard operator chooses to put up there. If there is a 1 point safety on a PAT attempt but the operator puts 2 points up there, it is still only 1 point.
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^flag
If the Lanier Head Coach gets his check cashed and is summoned to appear before the UIL Executive Council, as in years past, he reportedly will be asked these loaded questions by that panel:
1) Isn't the football field supposed to be an extension of your high school classroom?
2) Would you behave in this very same way if guests were invited into your classroom? Would you exhibit that type of behavior in front of your kids, their parents, your principal, or your superintendent?
3) What is the positive learning experience for your players, as well as those from the opposing team, from your actions that night? What can they take away from that episode of yours that is of a positive nature to both them and to the community in which they live?
More often than not, they either cannot intelligibly reply or there is an aura of absolute silence and stupor on their part!
Which usually occurs just prior to their being put on probation for a year or two, and their name posted in The Leaguer for all to gawk at! z^
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One way to fix childish coach behavior is the assigning system. Houston TASO has NFL quality guys, have them assign. Sounds ridiculous, but the crew wants games so they don't even flag the doofus. Let each coach scratch one crew, then let assigners handle the rest. "Yeah, but this is how it has always been done!"Well, coaches are in education, so that should tell you all you need to know about that system, and I am a teacher.
While I am ranting, get rid of the get back coach. Here is how to do it. Start taking time-outs away. I worked a chain recently, and it is easier to get through GCS (Grand Central Station) at rush hour than to move up and down a sideline in the 2nd half.Take away a second half time-out and watch how far back the players get.For most coaches its time-outs, God, then family.
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While I am ranting, get rid of the get back coach. Here is how to do it. Start taking time-outs away. I worked a chain recently, and it is easier to get through GCS (Grand Central Station) at rush hour than to move up and down a sideline in the 2nd half.Take away a second half time-out and watch how far back the players get.For most coaches its time-outs, God, then family.
^flag
The sad thing is that when a vast majority of coaches have been reminded about the death of the San Antonio coach a few years back after having collided with an official on the field, they just kind of stare at you in disbelief, or comeback with the sophomoric response, "Oh that will never happen to me, I'll always stay out of your way!"
And then when you wingman runs over them in the white and subsequently flags them for sideline interference, they get royally chapped whenever I have to go have a sideline conference with them seeing that they are steaming mad because of their self-justifying rationale that some lazy wing official ran over them in the white, which they truly believe is preeminently their territory and safe haven, including that area all the way out to the numbers!
Granted, the smarter coaches and better coached teams are rarely ever the problem here. It's primarily those ya-hoos who think that they have an automatic exemption from the rules. I think that the better remedy for that would be for the UIL to review all film footage to see if coaches are not properly adhering to sideline decorum, and if not, suspend the HC for a game or two to help insure that he gets "his ship in order" for the forthcoming weeks.
But alas, :bOW tiphat: Manor Road cRaZy would never ever dream of doing that! z^
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^flag
The sad thing is that when a vast majority of coaches have been reminded about the death of the San Antonio coach a few years back after having collided with an official on the field, they just kind of stare at you in disbelief, or comeback with the sophomoric response, "Oh that will never happen to me, I'll always stay out of your way!"
And then when you wingman runs over them in the white and subsequently flags them for sideline interference, they get royally chapped whenever I have to go have a sideline conference with them seeing that they are steaming mad because of their self-justifying rationale that some lazy wing official ran over them in the white, which they truly believe is preeminently their territory and safe haven, including that area all the way out to the numbers!
Granted, the smarter coaches and better coached teams are rarely ever the problem here. It's primarily those ya-hoos who think that they have an automatic exemption from the rules. I think that the better remedy for that would be for the UIL to review all film footage to see if coaches are not properly adhering to sideline decorum, and if not, suspend the HC for a game or two to help insure that he gets "his ship in order" for the forthcoming weeks.
But alas, those poor overworked, underpaid, malnourished Doctors of :bOW tiphat: Manor Road cRaZy would never ever dream of doing that! z^
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One thing the UIL has repeatedly said about this and which I agree with....we (football officials) have the tools to deal with this, so deal with it. We don't need to turn to them (UIL) for things that the rules already cover. Flag 'em and do the Incident report if it rises to that level. I really think if the UIL got material on the same guy time after time, they would do something.
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Wonder how the NFL handles it. It's very rare to see a coach in the white. I'm guessing they probably receive some small fine each time they violate.
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Wonder how the NFL handles it. It's very rare to see a coach in the white. I'm guessing they probably receive some small fine each time they violate.
For the most part, NFL coaches act like grown men. I'll leave it at that.
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In my section of California it took us three years but we have made such good progress keeping the coaches out of the white, I have actually congratulated each coach this year. This took a concerted effort by all of our officials. We started telling the coaches during the pregame that we will be strictly enforcing the restricted area rule and any contact no matter how slight will be enforced. Then during each game we would flag the coach for a sideline warning early if warranted.
First year was tough. Lots of sideline warnings. Last year was better. This year my crew has had 2 sideline warning all season.
This year after direction from the section commissioner, we began working on coaches coming on the field between plays. We were told to have a zero tolerance policy with this Coaches can only come of the field for authorized conferences. Again, being consistent in the enforcement has done wonders to get the coaches to stick to the policy. This is key.
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Again, being consistent in the enforcement has done wonders to get the coaches to stick to the policy. This is key.
Animal Training 101.
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Animal Training 101.
LOL Exactly and it works.
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LOL Exactly and it works.
Every time it is tried!!!! It ain't Chinese Algebra, very easy in fact. Tell them your expectations and then if they do not follow, drop a flag. They will get with the program.