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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: freezer on October 16, 2013, 01:15:19 PM
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K's scrimmage kick from B's 40 is touched by K at B's 2 yard line where K2 grabbed the ball in the air and comes down in the End Zone. Ruling?
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My thoughts are touchback. because the ball is not dead until possessed which is when the player returns to the ground in the endzone. Oh and illegal touching by the way ;D
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K is guilty of first touching at the R-2, and R has the right to take the ball there.
But they won't, since the result of the play is a touchback. The kick ends when possessed in the field of play. 2-24-2 But it's not dead until K2 recovers the ball, touching the ground inbounds. 4-2-2f, 2-36-1 So he forces the ball into R's EZ. Once he lands, the ball is dead, and the result of the play is a TB.
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At least in NFHS rules, there is no illegal touching in this play. Illegal touching only applies to pass plays touched by an ineligible receiver when not touched by B. 7-5-13. First touching is when the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick that goes beyond the neutral zone before it has been touched by R. I believe Maven is correct that R has either the choose of taking the result of the play which is a touchback or the spot of first touching which is the 2.
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At least in NFHS rules, there is no illegal touching in this play.
NCAA calls first touching illegal touching. I expect NFHS to modify its terminology in that direction at some point.
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I really prefer the term "first touching." There is nothing technically illegal with K touching the ball first. They just can't recover the ball and R has the option of taking the ball there. I tend to think of something as "illegal" only if some kind of penalty attaches such as illegal touching in passing situations.
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I really prefer the term "first touching." There is nothing technically illegal with K touching the ball first. They just can't recover the ball and R has the option of taking the ball there. I tend to think of something as "illegal" only if some kind of penalty attaches such as illegal touching in passing situations.
No offense, but your preference is irrelevant. NFHS calls this violation 'first touching', whereas NCAA defines it 'illegal touching'. And it is "illegal" in the sense that it violates the rules, even though it is not a foul.
The penalty is that R may take the ball at the spot of first/illegal touching, even when K ends up in possession at the end of the down.
And please allow me to recommend that you stop saying that K cannot recover a scrimmage kick beyond the line of scrimmage. Recovering a loose ball is gaining possession of it inbounds, and K can do that. Sometimes they will not retain possession after recovering the ball, but that's a different matter. 'Recover' is a defined term, and you'll be a better official if you use it only in its properly defined sense.
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I do realize that my preference matters nothing in the grand scheme of things. I just think "first touching" is less confusing for casual fans, is a better phrase to describe the outcome of the play, and I would prefer to not see it changed.
As for whether it is "illegal" seems to be a matter of semantics. Nowhere in the rules does it state that K cannot touch the kick first unless a fair catch signal has been given. 6-5-6(a) (though the exception clearly states that K may "catch, touch, muff, or bat" the kick if no R player is in a position to catch the ball). It just states an outcome of that action, much like the outcome of an incomplete catch is to return the ball to the previous spot, though I guess some in the world might call that the penalty for an incomplete pass. Again, I believe this is a matter of semantics, and I am solely familiar with the NFHS rulebook.
I do appreciate your pointing out my incorrect use of "recover." I had missed where it was defined and was using it in the colloquial sense. From now on I will do my best to use it in the proper sense and will speak in the sense of who will be next to have possession rather than who can recover.
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K's scrimmage kick from B's 40 is touched by K at B's 2 yard line where K2 grabbed the ball in the air and comes down in the End Zone. Ruling?
I assume there is no R player in position to catch the kick...if not, then there may be one more option to consider.