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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: robin083 on November 24, 2013, 12:16:34 PM
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http://deadspin.com/coach-ejected-and-suspended-for-title-game-after-late-h-1470310849?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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My guess, coach said something, official lost his cool. Video doesn't follow into the box to see the action. Goal in that situation is get them separated, declare game over, write up report and submit to the THSAA. They were well within their rights to eject the player, even though the clock was at 0:00. Telling the coach he is ejected for the next game is probably not in the field officials jurisdiction.
My guess is coach and officials may not have yet been aware the clock was at 0:00. Its a dead ball foul so there is no penalty to enforce. Just an administrative issue at that point. Get to the car, write it up later, send it in, let TPTB deal with it.
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How can you eject a player after the game is over?
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If we look up and the clock reads 00:00 and there are no live ball fouls on the play, officials need to head to the locker room. Their jurisdiction has ended I believe.
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Further video, including the ejection and an interview with the coach: http://fox17.com/sports/features/sports-unlimited/stories/ensworth-head-coach-ricky-bowers-ejected-after-win-252.shtml
Does the R think he's a baseball umpire with an ejection signal like that?
I'd be VERY interested to hear what happened between the whistle and when the video picked up.
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Further information - apparently, the R believes that he was bumped by the head coach.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131123/SPORTS07/311230079
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Further information - apparently, the R believes that he was bumped by the head coach.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131123/SPORTS07/311230079
Re-read your article....
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Does the R think he's a baseball umpire with an ejection signal like that?
Funny you should mention it. He has been a minor league umpire. Those habits don't die.
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How can you eject a player after the game is over?
The game isn't over until the Referee ascertains there are no fouls or other issues to consider. While B's foul was a dead ball foul and there was no time on the clock so the penalty can not be enforced, the ejection can lead to other administrative penalties by the state governing body. The Federation added a rule change recently that expands the officials' administrative jurisdiction beyond the end of the game. This includes any reports required by the state. The ejected player can face further sanction for his flagrant dead ball foul and ejection.
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Does the R think he's a baseball umpire with an ejection signal like that?
I personally thought that it was very unprofessional the way he did that. I understand that lots of football officials are also baseball umpires, but you can't mix the two
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How can you eject a player after the game is over?
He was ejected for action that took place during the game. In our state, that ejection also carries a fine for his school. If this is his second EJ of the year, a suspension is involved, which can carry over to any other sport he plays during this school year.
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I understand that lots of football officials are also baseball umpires, but you can't mix the two
I agree with you 100%. Those who don't work baseball understand that. Unfortunately, there are some who do work baseball that don't.
As an assignor of both football and basketball officials, I can tell you unequivocally most of the coach/officials "confrontrations" I have to deal with throughout the course of a season involve those officials who carry what I term a "baseball mentality." In this particular case, I have been acquainted with the individual involved and can tell you he falls into that category. Like I said earlier, old habits are hard to break.
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^flag
If there are a line of zeros (0:00) up on the game clock when the QB has exited the playing field, then by rule, the game is officially over and therein, the jurisdiction of the officials, in as far as the game itself is concerned, is over. Throwing the flag with one's back to the clock is naturally reactive, but once the officials go off into a quieter corner of the football field and rule accordingly, the flag is summarily picked up, no penalty within the game itself is to be assessed as the game is now effectively over and there is a winner declared.
That being said, at that juncture, the officials are now deemed as "witnesses" to those actions for any administrative or a state criminal or civil matter is concerned. If the R "was bumped" or "did bump" the coach, now falls into an administrative and/or legal situation.
I think that the officials acted naturally, but fastly came to the realization that the game was effectively over and was now out of their hands.
To wit, it's now up to the governing body of Tennessee high school athletics to administratively proceed; and quite possibly to the appropriate legal jurisdiction, albeit the county or state, to proceed further in their appropriate legal venues! z^
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If we look up and the clock reads 00:00 and there are no live ball fouls on the play, officials need to head to the locker room. Their jurisdiction has ended I believe.
Not to get pickey, but NFHS 1.1.8 challenges your belief. It states, "The game officials jurisdiction extends throughthe referee's declarationof the end of the 4th period or overtime. Thegame officials retain clerical authorietover the game through the completion of any reports including those imposing disqualifications, that are responsive to actions occuring while the game officials had jurisdiction......"
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Does "graze with the lapel of your jacket" count as a bump? Cuz that's what it looked like.
White hat lost his cool. Very poor situation management. Of course, I would like to see the moments leading up to when the camera turned on. Might sway my opinion
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Hit by B: he has disqualified himself.
All the nonsense afterwards: stand back, take numbers.
Once things are said/done & settled down: declare the game over.
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Not to get pickey, but NFHS 1.1.8 challenges your belief. It states, "The game officials jurisdiction extends throughthe referee's declarationof the end of the 4th period or overtime. Thegame officials retain clerical authorietover the game through the completion of any reports including those imposing disqualifications, that are responsive to actions occuring while the game officials had jurisdiction......"
^flag
Being in one of those states that subscribes solely to NCAA Football Rules for all of our interscholastic football, NCAA Rules dictate in Rule 11-1-1, "The officials jurisdiction begins 60 minutes before the scheduled kickoff and "ends when the Referee declares the score final."
Since the QB's running out of bounds effectively as the three zeroes hit the clock with the horn likely sounding, the game in effect was over with. From that "Omega" point, the final score has largely already been declared omissively by the Referee, and there is little else to do out there prescribed by either the NCAA or the NFHS. For safety's sake, I would want my people nowhere on that field when, as the game ended as acrimoniously as it did, on-rushing fans could have greatly threatened the safety and well-being of the entire officiating crew. The jurisdiction would now fall onto the shoulders of the local law enforcement officers serving in their security capacity. All that the officials can do at this juncture is to witness anything that may be going on as they are leaving the field, and turn that information over to either the appropriate administrative or law enforcement authorities ~ not staying on the field in "helping out!"
A wise old major college football official from not too awfully long ago taught me when I was relatively new at this great avocation of ours: "Don't go hunting for 'boogey men!' If you do, chances are that you'll find them!" z^
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In as far as the baseball-esque, grand ejection. - agreed. Some of that too comes w/ maturity or age.
i.e.: I officiated HS wrestling since I was 19 yr old, made my way up to DII and thought I weas pretty hot stuff. - I dont work wrestling any longer - too much of a grind with FB and all.
Anyway, for pin calls, I would/could do a roll out, rotate arm, slap the mat & whistle at the same time & be on my feet before the wrestlers. Or I had a reverse black-flip, do-wop that killed too (pun).
The older I got, the more I thought "who gives a crap about a pin call?" and when I last called wrestling for a pin I would whistle nice and loud and then moderately hit the mat (like freestyle for those familiar).
The pin call was still a pin call and I wasnt quite as hungry for my Snickers afterwards.
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^flag
Being in one of those states that subscribes solely to NCAA Football Rules for all of our interscholastic football, NCAA Rules dictate in Rule 11-1-1, "The officials jurisdiction begins 60 minutes before the scheduled kickoff and "ends when the Referee declares the score final."
Since the QB's running out of bounds effectively as the three zeroes hit the clock with the horn likely sounding, the game in effect was over with. From that "Omega" point, the final score has largely already been declared omissively by the Referee, and there is little else to do out there prescribed by either the NCAA or the NFHS. For safety's sake, I would want my people nowhere on that field when, as the game ended as acrimoniously as it did, on-rushing fans could have greatly threatened the safety and well-being of the entire officiating crew. The jurisdiction would now fall onto the shoulders of the local law enforcement officers serving in their security capacity. All that the officials can do at this juncture is to witness anything that may be going on as they are leaving the field, and turn that information over to either the appropriate administrative or law enforcement authorities ~ not staying on the field in "helping out!"
A wise old major college football official from not too awfully long ago taught me when I was relatively new at this great avocation of ours: "Don't go hunting for 'boogey men!' If you do, chances are that you'll find them!" z^
Ah, I forgot about fans on the field. Yep once they are even looking like they are coming on, I will depart (hopefully w/ my police escort the home team has provided)
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^flag
A wise old major college football official from not too awfully long ago taught me when I was relatively new at this great avocation of ours: "Don't go hunting for 'boogey men!' If you do, chances are that you'll find them!" [/b][/color]
I wasn't attempting to "look for boogers", merely correcting what the NFHS rule actually says. How a Referee chooses to interpret what is written is subject to circumstances, but it's best to know what actually is written before making any decisions.
As others have suggested, there may be a lot more that happened leading up to this decision that may have influenced, for better or worse, the course of action chosen.
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Looks like TSSAA Upheld the ejection.
http://fox17.com/sports/features/sports-unlimited/stories/breaking-tssaa-confirms-ricky-bowers-ejection-ensworth-have-play-state-title-game-without-head-coach-267.shtml
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Does "graze with the lapel of your jacket" count as a bump? Cuz that's what it looked like.
White hat lost his cool. Very poor situation management. Of course, I would like to see the moments leading up to when the camera turned on. Might sway my opinion
If you read the article, it was an assistant coach who the R (Loyd) said bumped him and that's why he was ejected. No reason given for the HC to be ejected.
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After watching that video with audio of the R and coach, I'm taken aback at how unprofessional this guy is, and there's a lot of things I'd like say to him about his actions, and his ego for that matter, but most of them would have to be censored. I want to know A. How many other people has he done this to, and if so, how the heck was this guy assigned to a playoff game, and B. What good reason is there for even retaining him for next year, considering he seems to be an atomic bomb with a hair trigger. Sorry to say it, but he can take his flag and fill in the blank.
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I've gone back and watched the video again.
What action does the R do that is like a baseball umpire? I can't see him for most of the video, then you see him sort of pushing a coach back and using both hands in a get away gesture.
And the second flag comes from the U - which has to be for something said, since no one was around him at the time to touch him.
Which video has audio of R and the coach?
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^flag
If there are a line of zeros (0:00) up on the game clock when the QB has exited the playing field, then by rule, the game is officially over and therein, the jurisdiction of the officials, in as far as the game itself is concerned, is over. Throwing the flag with one's back to the clock is naturally reactive, but once the officials go off into a quieter corner of the football field and rule accordingly, the flag is summarily picked up, no penalty within the game itself is to be assessed as the game is now effectively over and there is a winner declared.
Complicating this situation is the clock was at 0:02 when the runner went OOB. The R chose to end the game at that point which is in his discretion. The timing of that declaration in relation to the ejection is critical.
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What action does the R do that is like a baseball umpire?
There is a clip (from the FOX station, I recall) that shows the R giving the baseball "your're-outta-here" toss at the end of the conversation.
FWIW, it was reported in today's morning edition the TSSAA upheld the suspension of the coach, and the official involved will not work another playoff game this year.
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I've gone back and watched the video again.
What action does the R do that is like a baseball umpire? I can't see him for most of the video, then you see him sort of pushing a coach back and using both hands in a get away gesture.
And the second flag comes from the U - which has to be for something said, since no one was around him at the time to touch him.
Which video has audio of R and the coach?
Both of these links:
http://fox17.com/sports/features/sports-unlimited/stories/ensworth-head-coach-ricky-bowers-ejected-after-win-252.shtml
http://fox17.com/sports/features/sports-unlimited/stories/breaking-tssaa-confirms-ricky-bowers-ejection-ensworth-have-play-state-title-game-without-head-coach-267.shtml
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FWIW, it was reported in today's morning edition the TSSAA upheld the suspension of the coach, and the official involved will not work another playoff game this year.
And thus the baby was split in half. Although I imagine there was no guarantee the R was scheduled to work a final anyway.
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I've gone back and watched the video again.
What action does the R do that is like a baseball umpire? I can't see him for most of the video, then you see him sort of pushing a coach back and using both hands in a get away gesture.
And the second flag comes from the U - which has to be for something said, since no one was around him at the time to touch him.
Which video has audio of R and the coach?
The article that MDRef posted the link to has the news report where you see the exchange between the coach and referee from the sideline. After making his grand ejection signal, he then pointed at him and screamed, "You're gone for next week too!"
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Sorry to say it, but he can take his flag and fill in the blank.
I think that is an unnecessarily strong opinion.
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Studying Z- while the R's actions may not be your cup of tea and I could probably live without the histrionics myself, by rule there is nothing wrong with the actions taken and obviously the TSAA supported it. Maybe he is too "basebally" inclined and it certainly wasn't wise to throw in "and you're gone next week too" as that is out of his jurisdiction but we all have moments in our career that looking back, wished we had said or did something different.
Much like the debated Louisiana incident a few weeks back, these incidents don't happen in a vacuum. In every stomach churning incident I've been a party too, and thank God none have risen to this level, once you have a moment to reflect you can figure on where something went awry and learn from it. The R here is obviously an experienced official but we can never stop learning unless you choose not to.
I say all that to say this: Never say Never. If you ever make it to that level, you will find yourself in situations where you may not exactly agree with what goes on but for the sake of your crew you may have to swallow it.
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Words of wisdom, NC. tiphat:
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I've gone back and watched the video again.
What action does the R do that is like a baseball umpire? I can't see him for most of the video, then you see him sort of pushing a coach back and using both hands in a get away gesture.
And the second flag comes from the U - which has to be for something said, since no one was around him at the time to touch him.
Which video has audio of R and the coach?
http://fox17.com/sports/features/sports-unlimited/stories/ensworth-head-coach-ricky-bowers-ejected-after-win-252.shtml
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According to the local news, the state athletic association had no jurisdiction to overturn the ejection, as unsportsmanlike conduct is considered a "judgement call."
Don't know about you, but I would have privately said something to the R if I was on a crew and something like this had happened, and admittedly not in those words, even though that was a toned-down, expletives deleted response. I also think that conduct displayed by the official contributes to the fan sentiment that all referees are self-righteous and on a really tall horse.
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Re-read your article....
“(Lloyd) said Ricky bumped him." Lloyd's the official, and Ricky is the coach. The next paragraph up from where the coach says the official bumped into him.
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Ricky is the assistant coach. He was ejected first, then (as can be seen in the video) the R tosses the head coach.
From the Fox 17 story: "Ensworth head coach Ricky Bowers was ejected following his team's 21-12 victory over Brentwood Academy Friday night."
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I'm taken aback at how unprofessional this guy is,
SFZ- The Referee allowed his emotions to get the best of him, but be careful about judging him to quickly. Part of our job is to make quick decisions in high stress situations while usually being hollered at in an unprofessional manner.
IMO, keeping our cool is often the most difficult task, but the most important task for us to manage. Making the call, assessing the penalty and using proper mechanics comes much easier.
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The baseball histrionics have me laughing so hard my eyes are watering. Officials are to maintain or restore order. It's an essential part of game management. This crew did neither. The official throwing the flag because there are two seconds on the clock is also dramatic and the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire. The best thing to do there is get both teams back to the sideline, huddle, and enforce all penalties. Encourage the coach to have his QB take a knee instead of dropping back into a pass formation in an effort seemingly to "show up" the opponent which was recognized by the game announcers (homers) who even let out a yelp as it was happening. This crew was instead forced to end the game because they were unable or unwilling to restore order. The White Hat seemed to want a confrontation and he got it. Why else is he jawing with a coach around a crowd of people along the sideline. If you hire a baseball guy to do football you get what you pay for. I vote to keep crews like this off the football field.
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The baseball histrionics have me laughing so hard my eyes are watering. Officials are to maintain or restore order. It's an essential part of game management. This crew did neither. The official throwing the flag because there are two seconds on the clock is also dramatic and the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a fire. The best thing to do there is get both teams back to the sideline, huddle, and enforce all penalties. Encourage the coach to have his QB take a knee instead of dropping back into a pass formation in an effort seemingly to "show up" the opponent which was recognized by the game announcers (homers) who even let out a yelp as it was happening. This crew was instead forced to end the game because they were unable or unwilling to restore order. The White Hat seemed to want a confrontation and he got it. Why else is he jawing with a coach around a crowd of people along the sideline. If you hire a baseball guy to do football you get what you pay for. I vote to keep crews like this off the football field.
I agree with everything you said except for taking the knee part. We don't see downs 1-3 in the video. If he were to take a knee the ball would have gone over with about 12-13 seconds for the other team. Very unprofessional white hat.
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Complicating this situation is the clock was at 0:02 when the runner went OOB. The R chose to end the game at that point which is in his discretion. The timing of that declaration in relation to the ejection is critical.
^flag
Great point, Magician! Now I'm speaking from NCAA Rules, since they are our bread and butter in high school football here in Texas. I would not have a clue as to what the NFHSA Rules would prescribe.
Now with that being said, if the official clock, in fact, did read 0:02(unofficial TV broadcast clock was actually at 0:04) when the QB exited the sideline, thereby establishing that there was, indeed, time on the clock, and taking into exception that both the offenses of the Team B player and the Team A coach had been summarily penalized and both possibly ejected for their actions, then the ball should have been spotted at the OOB spot, where the QB exited the field and then given to Team B on downs.
But taking into consideration that since a near-melee had occurred on the Team A sideline as a result of the extra-curricular activity, and keeping in mind that there was already a 9-point differential in the score, and with only 2 seconds remaining to play in the game, and knowing that in doing so could possibly engender additional ill-will, then I might just be somewhat inclined to invoke the Referee's "elastic rule" in just running the clock out since there is not a 9 point play that could be executed that could tie the game in that short amount of time remaining. Pretty much keeping the overall safety of the players and support personnel as the primary factor here, which would preeminently trump anything else, namely giving Team B a shot at some inconsequential scoring play!
Regardless, both the Team B offending player and the Team A head coach definitely needed to be reported to their state athletics association as well as to their respective superintendents, with any audible game film footage available, that should be submitted as attached evidence, along with the original report. z^