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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: TXMike on November 23, 2014, 06:18:28 PM
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2 purposes for this clip. 1 - to demonstrate something our state HUDL guru from Houston has come up with for sharing play clips and notes; and 2 - Look for ideas on how the play could have been officiated better. http://www.hudl.com/presview/296426 (http://www.hudl.com/presview/296426)
(NOTE - You can get it to play in full screen by clicking on the four arrow point icon at bottom right)
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Unfortunately not a whole lot can be done here. Both guys are technically the H's at the snap -- but since the defenders on both receivers are in press coverage, the H will naturally be drawn to the closest receiver. Just one of the problems with 5 man instead of 7 man.
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7 is better than 5. The NFL and FBS have figured out 8 is better than 7. Unfortunately, the bottom line is the bottom line. High schools would rather whine about missed calls than they would open their checkbook and pay for what they really need.
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We haven't done it this year, but in the past we have just sent a 7 man crew without any prior approval. The coaches would be informed of who the crew was and that was that. Not a single time did they come back with a rejection to the 7 man crew.
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It is not a cost thing. The coaches who don't want it are afraid of more flags.
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Perils of the spread offense with a 5 man crew.
The only way is if the B was looking at that receiver instead of the one to he LJ side. Since we have determined that when there is even str, the str is to the LJ side of the field, the #2 guy doesnt really get a second look until he is further down the field.
Ran into this issue several times this year. Lots of complaining about holding as the receiver came out of the break, but by the time I got to it (depending on formation and who was running where) it was too late and the action has passed.
7 man is the only way to get that.
Be that as it may, is this really the best video to prove this point? Dont we have some muggings or takedowns out there that can be shown?
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Plenty more.this is just 1 more
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It is not a cost thing. The coaches who don't want it are afraid of more flags.
That, too, but in my area $$$ are a factor.
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I think number of officials is the key reason we primarily use 5. It also has to do with coaches being afraid that we will find more penalties all while complaining that we missed some. LOL
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Wanna see how fast they move off that money argument just tell them you will provide 7 at the cost of 5. They will come up with another excuse
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In my experience, coaches and AD's could care less how much money they spend. Officials are certainly not the largest percentage of their budgets.
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Our crew talked in length about this during our trip on Saturday. The only way this is going to happen is if TASO and the UIL step in and say it will. IMHO. Starting with 6-5A's may be best, but what about a crew with 7 guys who draw a couple of 4A games and the coaches don't want 7, what happens then? deadhorse:
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I started officiating just about the time all of the chapters were pushing for a 5th official. What eventually happened was, after a couple of years with a mix of 4 and 5 man crews, it was all or nothing. It will really be tough for the some of the country schools since you can't get 7 guys in a single vehicle. But, many of them are already bringing timers anyway, who typically travel by themselves. It is past time to move to 7 officials in all games, all classifications. Is there any chance of moving to 6, with some modified mechanics? The biggest problem with 6 is that is leaves the deep middle too wide-open.
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I started officiating just about the time all of the chapters were pushing for a 5th official. What eventually happened was, after a couple of years with a mix of 4 and 5 man crews, it was all or nothing. It will really be tough for the some of the country schools since you can't get 7 guys in a single vehicle. But, many of them are already bringing timers anyway, who typically travel by themselves. It is past time to move to 7 officials in all games, all classifications. Is there any chance of moving to 6, with some modified mechanics? The biggest problem with 6 is that is leaves the deep middle too wide-open.
I agree that 7 is the way to go, even 6 would be better with the pass oriented offenses. However, it is still a numbers thing in most of the smaller chapters. Heck, there was a thread on here earlier this year about chapters having to give away games because they do not have enough people to cover what they have, must less with two additional officials per crew.
But it is a double edged sword, with more "games" some of the younger officials can join a crew, get games and possibly stay instead of 1 or 2 years and gone because they only get sub-varsity games.
Just my $.02
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. It will really be tough for the some of the country schools since you can't get 7 guys in a single vehicle.
Nothing a Ford Expedition EL or Chrysler Town and Country can't fix. ;)
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In my experience, coaches and AD's could care less how much money they spend. Officials are certainly not the largest percentage of their budgets.
That depends on who is responsible for the budget.
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Just because you can put 7 trim and slim and svelte Houston guys in one of those don't mean you can put 7 normal sized guys in one for a 100 mile (1 way) roadtrip ;D
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If we want this, the way to start is to just start sending 7 man crews to games. I think most coaches in the metro areas care less about the number than who is the crew chief.
The question then becomes: on Friday night, can the chapter cover the majority (or all) of its 5A and 6A games with 7 and still be able to send 5 to the smaller schools? Or, be able to offer 7 to the smaller schools when asked?
I'm not sure if they can.
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Need to think a little, is 5 men with 1 rookie better than 7 men and 4 rookies? Its kinda like going to war with a gun and no bullets.
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Working S/F would be much better places to bring folks into varsity games than L/H where they are typically put.
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Yes and No. If I had to bring in two young guys, I might split it. One experienced guy at H or LJ and one experienced guy deep on the opposite side. Balance it out.
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I worked the 2000 - 2001 high school seasons in Pennsylvania (suburban Philadelphia area) and was surprised that the PIAA (their UIL) requires the use of 7 man Crews for all playoff games at all levels back then. I liked the idea of getting more Officials on the field for the playoffs. I believe that requirement is still in effect today.
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Yes we need 7 officials. Yes the Houston HUDL guy is a guru.
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Yes the Houston HUDL guy is a guru.
He is quite the video expert. :bOW
Mike, you would not describe me as svelte. We stick the deep three in the back together, still plenty of room!
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If we want this, the way to start is to just start sending 7 man crews to games. I think most coaches in the metro areas care less about the number than who is the crew chief.
The question then becomes: on Friday night, can the chapter cover the majority (or all) of its 5A and 6A games with 7 and still be able to send 5 to the smaller schools? Or, be able to offer 7 to the smaller schools when asked?
I'm not sure if they can.
^flag
Houston has just recently received the blessings of its subscribing schools AD's and Coaches, both public and private, to implement 7-Man Mechanics for the 2015 football season, the lone exception being for 6-Man Football Crews are already in the process of starting to interview and subsequently add deep wings to their crews for the forthcoming year. The chapter is not only readying for the task of training
its own chapter members for this, but also members of other chapters who are unable to adequately provide that training to its own members for whatever reason.
I think that we will see a majority of the metropolitan-based chapters that will be coming to adopt this, along with some of the more progressive smaller chapters. z^
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^flag
But it will take one hell of a recruiting effort to go out and procure new members to help out with the chains and the clocks. Not that it didn't need to be done anyway! z^
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That's good. I told a coach today that we would be using a 7 man crew for his playoff game next week. Pretty much didn't give him a choice. He was fine with it.
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So, here is the question I have to ask:
Using the video that was shown as the example, from a philosophical standpoint, who is going to call that?
Even with 7 guys...
Just curious.
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Think the guy is the SJ. He would watch the initial contact and should see the hold.
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I apologize I was not more precise in my question. I wasnt asking who would have the call from a position standpoint.
I am asking, from a football officiating philosophy standpoint: is this a call we want to start making?
Let's say this was the Back Judge's Primary key and he got a good look at the action. Is this a flag we, as officials, should start throwing? Would you want the back judge (or FJ/SJ) on your crew to make this call in a game you are officiating?
That is what I am getting at.
And I am all for 7 man mechanics. But even with 7 man, is this particular play going to get called (and should it)?
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This is really pretty easy. When you get to Coby's second "mark" the B is rightfully on the #2 toward L but the H should not still be on #1. #1 on H side is no longer threatened and H should now be on #2, the biggest threat. 7 man would be easier, but even with just 5 this should be an easy switch for the H.
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And the L is about 8 yards down field when his RB is still in blocking and a threat for possible chop or OH. We can keep saying we see this 7 man, but these mechanics are so bad not sure it would help.
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I would just like to pick the brains of people to understand the mechanics. Anyone who wants to answer how they specifically would work the play as if they were in the game at the position watching that key, by all means. Just to get a general consensus of how the deep guy and the wings work.
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The fouled guy was the H's key (7 man). He was under pressure from the get go so H would have to have stayed with him and would have seen it. I understand the philosophy issue , i.e. why would we call this when QB went elsewhere but QB did not go elsewhere until after the foul (which is probably why he DID go elsewhere)
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Mike, is correct. If working 7 man, that is H's key the whole way.
In 5 man, B has the two inside WRs favoring the L side. L has the back and #1 WR. H should take both WRs on his side initially(since neither WR is pressed). Let the play develop, then go to biggest threat. In this case it is the #2 WR.
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And the L is about 8 yards down field when his RB is still in blocking and a threat for possible chop or OH. We can keep saying we see this 7 man, but these mechanics are so bad not sure it would help.
So how would work that in 5 man with the L's 1st key being the #1 WR? In 7 man of course he would stay because his 1st key is the RB.
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So how would work that in 5 man with the L's 1st key being the #1 WR? In 7 man of course he would stay because his 1st key is the RB.
L has both #1 and RB. #1 is never actually threatened by the defender. L could stay on the LOS and have just as good a look at the play on the sideline if not better since he would be stationary. Looks kind of like he was surprised how close he ended up to the WR. L would now have a good look at potential blocks by the RB also. By the L moving so far downfield, L has no way of seeing blocks by the RB or if he is held trying to go out for a pass.
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The fouled guy was the H's key (7 man). He was under pressure from the get go so H would have to have stayed with him and would have seen it. I understand the philosophy issue , i.e. why would we call this when QB went elsewhere but QB did not go elsewhere until after the foul (which is probably why he DID go elsewhere)
I don't think I would have tossed here for that reason exactly. Take a look at the EZ shot of this play... even though you can't see the holding, the QB never addresses that side of the field. It's hard to see the entire flow of the play because of all the edits, but by the time I see a hold and make the glance to the QB to see if he is considering that receiver...I see the QB is looking to the other side then scrambles. Even on the tight shot you see he never considered that side.
I agree that the action is a foul, but does this play constitute a flag? Some will say yes and some will say no.
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This thread was going strong about how important 7 man is, then I let yall know how easy this play is to call in 5 man and silence.
I should charge for these clinics. You're welcome.
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I don't think I would have tossed here for that reason exactly. Take a look at the EZ shot of this play... even though you can't see the holding, the QB never addresses that side of the field. It's hard to see the entire flow of the play because of all the edits, but by the time I see a hold and make the glance to the QB to see if he is considering that receiver...I see the QB is looking to the other side then scrambles. Even on the tight shot you see he never considered that side.
I agree that the action is a foul, but does this play constitute a flag? Some will say yes and some will say no.
As the QB is faking the handoff to 17 he is looking to the right. He continues looking there briefly but looks away when he realizes he is not going to get anything there. Just after the hold is obvious, the QB starts his scramble.
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As the QB is faking the handoff to 17 he is looking to the right. He continues looking there briefly but looks away when he realizes he is not going to get anything there. Just after the hold is obvious, the QB starts his scramble.
Agree, but very brief and before the foul occurred. And by the time you get to the QB after the foul to see where he is going, he is not addressing that side. If I didn't throw and I got a downgrade for this, then it's a fabulous learning play. But I don't see any reason to throw.
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This thread was going strong about how important 7 man is, then I let yall know how easy this play is to call in 5 man and silence.
I should charge for these clinics. You're welcome.
Thank you Mr. Perfect! ^no
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I agree that 7 is the way to go, even 6 would be better with the pass oriented offenses. However, it is still a numbers thing in most of the smaller chapters. Heck, there was a thread on here earlier this year about chapters having to give away games because they do not have enough people to cover what they have, must less with two additional officials per crew.
But it is a double edged sword, with more "games" some of the younger officials can join a crew, get games and possibly stay instead of 1 or 2 years and gone because they only get sub-varsity games.
Our chapter would fit in the "give away games...do not have enough people" category. I don't know what the total number of games was that we had to give away, but the number INCLUDED some playoff games in the early rounds.
We send out several 4-man crews for 11-man games and have sent some 3-man crews for varsity six-man. If we did not assign short crews, we'd have to give away more games.
And, we DO send 1st year guys to varsity games. No choice, or again, we'd give away some more games.
Going to 7 is 100% infeasible for us. At least until a couple of weeks deep into the playoffs.
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We are in the same boat as DonM. Our rookies will work anywhere from 5-10 varsity games. We even had one that was requested by name to work a semi-final playoff game. If any of you still count your points for Division points, it usually takes our guys less than 10 years to make Div. 1. In total we had 4 rookies work a playoff game this year and all 4 were requested by name by the coaches.
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I wonder if TASO would be willing to loosen the rule about allowing officials to work varsity games in chapters they aren't members of. I know about secondary chapter membership, but you still have to pick a "home" chapter where the official can only work playoff games through that chapter. I'm sure there is a list of willing and capable officials who could assist the small chapters covering games with a 6th or 7th official -- for regular season and playoffs.
Then, the question becomes: would the small chapters accept the help? Not questioning anyone's motives either way, just wondering if there are legitimate drawbacks.
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I held dual membership for a couple of years myself. It wasnt a bad gig and the smaller chapter I was in seemed happy with my services.