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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: JarMan69 on December 09, 2014, 12:19:48 PM
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Let me start this by saying I am not griping or complaining. My crew had the opportunity to work 3 playoff games this year and were up for others. What are your thoughts on ways of evening the playing field as far as the # of games chapters work in a season. It seems to me the rich continue to get rich and the poor just get kicked under the bus. I know there have to be a different way of doing it than the current methods. Also there has to be some way of distributing the finals games to ALL of the chapters in Texas instead of the same 4 or 5 chapters every year with the smaller chapters having absolutely zero chance of working one of these games. Please let me know your thoughts on this, thank you.
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# 1 I would dispute your assertion that smaller chapters have no chance to work the finals. Ask Abilene. Ask East Texas. (And that does not even address the 6 man situation)
Would you like a situation that gives you a percentage of playoff games based on the percentage of teams you regularly cover who are in the playoffs? Probably not.
How about one that gives you a percentage of playoff games based on the percentage of the total TASO membership your Chapter includes? Probably not.
So how is it "fair" to just arbitrarily say your Chapter is "entitled" to games?
The system of assigning (picking) officials for ALL games , not just playoffs is what it is. Until that changes, not much else can change.
In my "ideal" world, TASO would have an evaluation staff who would look at X number of crews during the season and based on the rankings they give those crews, assign the championship games. Each Chapter could nominate a certain percentage of crews, based on Chapter size, for this consideration.
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Mike, I agree with you. some type of evaluation process would be great. I just wished football would do like other sports and allow chapters to be chosen for playoffs and finals games instead of letting the coaches do it the way they have for years. I also agree with you on East Texas and Abilene but there are other Chapters like SFA, El Paso, Commerce and Beaumont that are always at the bottom and get there 2 - 3 games a year and once the first round is done they are done. And then the "Goliath" chapters like Houston, Ft. Worth, Dallas and San Antonio get the plethora of games all 6 rounds. If it was a 1 or 2 year thing I would understand and chalk it up to a good/bad year for certain Chapters but it is every year and I think it needs to be looked into and some changes be made to "even the playing field" where its best for all chapters involved. Not just the top 5.
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One thing that would help would be to automate more of this. I know with past 'successes' by TASO in the technology area this is a HUGE thing to ask, but I feel that the more we remove this from an arbitrary assignment process the better. Have all of the chapters go into an electronic pot and your chances are weighted based on the percentage of games your chapter works at a specific level, i.e. if Amarillo works 60% of the 2A games throughout the entire state, they get a 6/10 chance of an assignment in all rounds. Throw everyone into a pot and have an electronic lottery pull the chapter that gets to work each game in a given round.
The next step, i believe is to put a cap at each round based, again, on the volume of games your given chapter works at a certain level. So if 20% of Amarillos games are in the 2A classification then in rd 1 where there are 16 games, their cap is 3 games in that round. In this scenario if 2% of Houston's games are 2A then if they get their number pulled for multiple 2A slots, they can only work one of those since their cap is below 1. They would have to pick their game and give the other back which can either be UIL assigned or possibly another rd of lottery style picking.
Finally, there needs to be a regulation in place that bans the same chapter from working multiple games per round in ANY classification. If you want to work that 6A game on Friday night, you cant send the same crew to work both that AND a 5A game on Saturday.
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Attached is a comparison of the Mike's final 2013 spreadsheet using the # on members per chapter and the 660 UIL playoff games in 2013 using the % of membership per chapter. I know there is no perfect way to do this but there has to be a better method then the current method.
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Just use the system that they used for the BCS or this years Top four polls. Seemed to work like a charm LOL
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Attached is a comparison of the Mike's final 2013 spreadsheet using the # on members per chapter and the 660 UIL playoff games in 2013 using the % of membership per chapter. I know there is no perfect way to do this but there has to be a better method then the current method.
well there goes your theory. Dallas got screwed while several small chapters got way more than they "deserved. "
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I've looked at this data more than probably anyone over the last 15 years. Well, maybe that's because I compile it. Some larger chapters get fewer games they they "deserve" and some get more. None of it means anything, at all, until something happens with coaches picks. They run the show, so nothing moves any direction until that changes. What are the chances of that happening? Extremely slim gentlemen.
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But in this theory some of the smaller chapters should get more games and some of the larger chapters would get less. More evenly spread it out among the chapters.
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Trying to be fair doesn't help anyone. You see some crews from Houston or Dallas, and you think "how did they get that game?" The H is 300 and the B is 72 and gets beat to the goal line. So you assume that Houston is not as good as everyone thinks, or that is their 17th best crew. Also, do you think the best crew from the Commerce chapter would be the 22nd best crew in Houston? No real way of knowing unless you grade them every game. Which isn't going to happen. Last point....who is the client? The coaches could care less how many games Houston or Commerce or any chapter gets. Bottom line is it is impossible to make it fair. And who gets to decide what is fair?
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In my opinion, the playoff assignments are largely based on 3 factors: location, UIL grouping geography (for lack of a better term), and perception. By location, I mean, the chapter who's covered area has a large number of playoff teams. UIL grouping means what areas are affected by the regional splits -- for example, Houston has virtually ALL of Region 3 in the large classifications while DFW has part of Region 1 and 2, but the second and third largest chapter to share. Finally, perception -- schools perceive that the larger chapters are more capable of working the larger school games, and even the later smaller school games from quarters on.
We can't do much about the first 2 factors, and the third can only be addressed by making the crews in your chapter as good as they can be.
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Clear wall: hey coach in Victoria, you can not use Houston because they met their quota of 3A games. You have to pay for a crew from Amarillo to call your game.
Who do you want calling your championship game. A group of 5 refs that have called 100+ 6A games over the last 7 years as a crew or the 5 chapter officers from Big Sandy chapter?
Here is my solution: HUDL every penalty and every complaint from a game worked. You put all of them together in a playlist and send in a video resume to TXMike to evaluate. I have every one of mine it takes 1.5 hours a week to compile.
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What no one has even mentioned, which has a huge bering on who gets what, is what schools are still playing. Houston has received far more games this year than the rest of the other chapters, but pretty much got shut out this weekend. And if none of the Houston teams lose this weekend, it will probably happen again next weekend. It's all relative.
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After thinking about it more (which is dangerous in and of itself):
TASO State and UIL mandate that 6 of the championship games next year will be called from a pool of 6 crews. We get those 6 crews by every chapter submitting 6 crews to the state level. The state then identifies the six finalist. The coaches will then pick which of the 6 crews officiate which game.
Qualifications for the crews being submitted.... Every Crew will submit every penalty, and every coach complaints from every game thru HUDL. If you can not create a playlist with every penalty and every coach complaint you are not eligible. Turn the playlist into a presentation and the presentation is what is evaluated at local state and championship coaches.
If you call 22 games you need every penalty and every complaint from every game. If you call 7 games you need every penalty and every complaint from every game. You must make the playlist and tag the plays by penalty and position making the call. These plays are then used for all training modules created for the next year.
If you dont have a HUDL acct you can use the state account. If you do not use crews create an all star crew from your chapter for your shot.
You will be reviewing and looking at film which will make everybody better. HUDL usage will take off. Most importantly everyone will have an opportunity. There will be a system in place as opposed to the current method. Thoughts???
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Clear wall: hey coach in Victoria, you can not use Houston because they met their quota of 3A games. You have to pay for a crew from Amarillo to call your game.
Who do you want calling your championship game. A group of 5 refs that have called 100+ 6A games over the last 7 years as a crew or the 5 chapter officers from Big Sandy chapter?
Here is my solution: HUDL every penalty and every complaint from a game worked. You put all of them together in a playlist and send in a video resume to TXMike to evaluate. I have every one of mine it takes 1.5 hours a week to compile.
But in my system it would be very unlikely that such a thing would happen. Only the second portion of that was around a game cap per round. The first part of the strategy is to weight a lottery based on number of games in a given classification. Houston works considerably more 6A than Amarillo(I think they only have 2 6A teams). So it is highly unlikely that Amarillo gets a game between CC King and Steele or something similar. What it would solve would be to allow Commerce, Amarillo, Lubbock to work the later round playoff games in the classification levels that they are used to working.
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It is interesting to talk about all of these scenarios, but it won't change the fact that the UIL allows coaches to pick their crews and/or chapters. Until that is changed, nothing else changes. And, that's not going to happen any time soon. If the present UIL director steps down, maybe there might be a chance. I've heard him say that coaches will always have the right to choose.
So, good luck with all of these suggestions.
One thing I'd like to see the UIL mandate is that if two schools are playing in the playoffs and they use the same chapter during the regular season, they must use that chapter in the playoffs. If a chapter supports a program from 7th grade to varsity, by golly, they should support that chapter during the playoffs.
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I think all finals are UIL assigned to chapters. Coby, what about all the no-calls? Those grade just as good/bad as calls.
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So if you have several coaches that WILL NOT send in their video in your chapter you are basically screwed. We requested video every week, we sent follow up emails every week, we ended up at about 40%. You think the coaches care that you are eligible for a state championship? Not a good idea.
I think the better focus in this debate is the solicitation that is rumored to go on by folks attempting to secure not only championship games but playoff games in general.
As long as coaches are doing the selecting, it is a flawed system, all the evaluation, all the gnashing of teeth wont change that fact. You aren't going to legislate that the 2A D1 game will be picked from some pool while the 2A D2 game gets to be the coaches pick.
What you can do, is crack down on the solicitation and put the screws to those that operate in that realm.. rather than giving a turn the other direction approach.
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I think all finals are UIL assigned to chapters.
Only if they don't agree, just like the rest of the playoffs.
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One thing I'd like to see the UIL mandate is that if two schools are playing in the playoffs and they use the same chapter during the regular season, they must use that chapter in the playoffs. If a chapter supports a program from 7th grade to varsity, by golly, they should support that chapter during the playoffs.
Agreed.
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Lots of comments from officials who just want to call the game. We all do!! I am the Secretary from one of the smallest Chapters in the State. Pecan Valley. We will take what we can get. Stigmas's stay around for a long time and it is very disheartening!! We grew over 20 officials this past year and had a great season. We assisted San Angelo, Abilene and some of the other chapters this year in covering games. All we got was a thank you from the chapters that could not cover their games while they enjoyed their playoff season. We will continue to strive to get better. Its all about relationships. Relationships are formed between Chapter officers and Coaches as well as crews. Everyone has crews that can call any level game. Its just that big chapters have a lot more of those good crews. My two cents!!
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Our chapter has benefited a great deal this year. We've received a record number of playoff games this season. A lot of our games came from an unfortunate circumstance that other chapters are facing and that is the shortage of officials. Schools expect the best crew you have to send, but when these other chapters are sending 2nd and 3rd year officials who are not that experienced it gives the schools a bad taste, so they then come to us and we send them the best. At some point each chapter has to be honest with themselves and realize where to draw the line on how many games you can actually provide top tier crews. Once you reach that limit then you need to turn down the games or you risk ruining getting that team back the next year. To piggyback on what CSMJake posted, you have to plant the seeds early. Focus on these young jr. high coaches, develop and professional relationship with them. When they move on to bigger and better jobs, they need to remember who you are for someone they can call on in the future.
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This is a multi-variate problem. In addition to the concept about distributing playoff games across the chapters, the larger chapters are also faced with the complaints from many crews that they aren't given a fair shake a games either. It's really like a microcosm of what is seen state wide.
Seeing the number of quality crews (and I'm not talking about my own here) that are sitting at home with very little chance year after year, it's disconcerting. Many see it as another issue between the heaves and have nots.
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the larger chapters are also faced with the complaints from many crews that they aren't given a fair shake a games either. It's really like a microcosm of what is seen state wide.
I have to agree here. Look at the big chapters and all their games, and look how many crews worked two or more games a weekend in the playoffs.
Until TASO and UIL step in and make football like other sports, and select chapters on a rotating basis each year to work the quarter-finals and up, this debate will go on--forever. deadhorse:
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I think all finals are UIL assigned to chapters. Coby, what about all the no-calls? Those grade just as good/bad as calls.
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If a coach complains about a call via zware evals or whatever mechanism is in place locally then those plays must be included also in the HUDL playlist resume. I really dont see it being feasible to review every play worked looking for no calls. 12 penalties a game. 4 coach complaints each team 20 plays per game to be reviewed 15 games a year is a 300 play playlist per hudl resume. Which is basically 2 games worth of plays. It takes me and TXMIKE about an hour to review 1 raw game film. So if every chapter submits 6 crews to be reviewed. 20 chapters. It would take 240 man hours to grade maximum if every chapter submits 6 crews (highly doubtful). Who the reviewers are is not my cup of tea. Maybe every chapter submit someone to review? It would be a 2 week review process with layers of reviews. The reviewers would not need HUDL access as it would be on a link. What the scoring matrix would be is also not my cup of tea. Perhaps have every crew that submits a final playlist include a $100 evaluation fee?
This might be the most realistic evaluation plan I have ever seen on here. Like Doc said getting coaches to buy into it would be the most difficult step.
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I think the process to nominate top six crews could be a proverbial blood bath as well. Consider the black box playoff tracker we have now.
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Going to add my 2-cents here as my first posting to this forum. Until the UIL makes the decision to take the option of coaches picking the chapter and then officials, nothing will change. There is no reason why the UIL cannot implement a rotating plan that, in advance, announces which chapters will work which semifinal and state final games. Since there are now 12 state championship games each year the UIL can assign all 12 in advance. For example, they could easily announce that in 2015 Houston will work the 2A-D2, South Plains 3A-D2, Commerce 4A-D1, etc. For that year if the chapter has a state championship game then they do not receive a semifinal game. All semifinal games are worked by the chapters not receiving a state championship game. Obviously there would be 24 semifinal games so there are plenty to go around. You could even go as far as guarantee each district a state championship game every year, as well as, if a chapter has a 1A (6-man) state championship game maybe they are also receive one semifinal 11-man game. Much of this plan could even be implemented starting with the Quarterfinals. I don't recall it being directly stated but the shame is there are a lot of solid officials/crews sitting at home during the quarterfinals while, at the same time, officials working who should not be because a chapter is attempting to service to many games.
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Not directing this at you directly because you certainly are not the only one suggesting UIL could assign chapters and I have no idea about your opinions on the UIL but...many guys who have long held beliefs about the UIL's failings want to turn to the UIL to get involved in game assigning. I don't get it.
And again...what is "fair"? Why should Commerce, N Texas, Pecan Valley (or Houston, Dallas, San Antonio) be guaranteed any game? I don't see how any Chapter or any crew should think they have a "right" to any game
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Mike, one point I didn't include. When I mention the assignment could be done in advance, I'm talking two and three years out, not just one year. It's not that any chapter "deserves" to be in a game. However, I can tell you every chapter has officials that does deserve the opportunity to be in such game. Every chapter has officials that have worked hard to be afforded the chance. But due to various reasons beyond their control they are not given the chance. A rotating schedule at least provides such opportunity.
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The elephant in the room on this topic......
Ever wonder how a coach, AD, or supt. seem to favor certain crews for years?
Definitely not all, but there are those out there that make calls and give the "coach, congratulations, if you need a good crew"....speech.
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Mike, one point I didn't include. When I mention the assignment could be done in advance, I'm talking two and three years out, not just one year. It's not that any chapter "deserves" to be in a game. However, I can tell you every chapter has officials that does deserve the opportunity to be in such game. Every chapter has officials that have worked hard to be afforded the chance. But due to various reasons beyond their control they are not given the chance. A rotating schedule at least provides such opportunity.
So if Houston broke into 8 TASO chapters with 150 members each would all 8 be in the rotation? I hope you see the point. Big Sandy chapter (fictional) has 3 crews that could handle the game out of 20 crews. Houston has 12 crews that could handle it out of 80 crews.
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The elephant in the room on this topic......
Ever wonder how a coach, AD, or supt. seem to favor certain crews for years?
Definitely not all, but there are those out there that make calls and give the "coach, congratulations, if you need a good crew"....speech.
Ya' think!!!!! pi1eOn
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So if Houston broke into 8 TASO chapters with 150 members each would all 8 be in the rotation? I hope you see the point. Big Sandy chapter (fictional) has 3 crews that could handle the game out of 20 crews. Houston has 12 crews that could handle it out of 80 crews.
The principal point is based on the current structure of TASO. If a chapter elected to split off into more chapters that's not reasonable. Let's flip it around. What if a smaller chapter elected to tell UIL they are no longer affiliate with TASO. Similar to what was done in basketball. Do you not think UIL would favor that option.
I just think there's some options out there that are reasonable and take it out of the hands of coaches. When the coaches have the ability to chose individual officials that's when it gets dicey. For example, a coach who went to college with an official and hide that fact from the other coach only to request him and his buddies in a State game.
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The principal point is based on the current structure of TASO. If a chapter elected to split off into more chapters that's not reasonable. Let's flip it around. What if a smaller chapter elected to tell UIL they are no longer affiliate with TASO. Similar to what was done in basketball. Do you not think UIL would favor that option.
I just think there's some options out there that are reasonable and take it out of the hands of coaches. When the coaches have the ability to chose individual officials that's when it gets dicey. For example, a coach who went to college with an official and hide that fact from the other coach only to request him and his buddies in a State game.
Stop manufacturing what ifs. I do not want the UIL anywhere near the process of assigning football games. We had this fight -- and they agreed to stay out of football officiating.
And so you know -- I have not worked past Round 3. For the vast majority of the games assigned out of Dallas -- I understand ever assignment. It is not based on favoritism. Everyone should look to their own Chapter governance before you start getting the UIL involved. I put head down and work the games I am assigned to the best of my ability. While I know I have the skills to work a State Championship Game (at any level), if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
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With the network that the coaches have between themselves, I would say that they talk to each other on a weekly basis and make recomendations to each other on officials and crews and chapters. These coaches know each other and probably were college roomates or on the same staff at some point in their careers. If they feel or felt that they got screwed by a crew or the other coach, it probably wouldnot happen a second time.
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...........I do not want the UIL anywhere near the process of assigning football games. We had this fight -- and they agreed to stay out of football officiating.
............. Everyone should look to their own Chapter governance before you start getting the UIL involved.
Right on!! Each Chapter needs to get its own houses in order before we start bashing the state or looking to the state to help us out.
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Haters gon hate aWaRd
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OK my first post ever here. I have been a prt of this for 32 years. One thing is for sure, smae complaints for 32 years. We all want to work and that is great. We all think we are better than we really are or certianly better than the crew who got the game. It's human nature. Some guys on this thread have nailed it. As long as coaches pick the system will never change. It has been this way for the past 32 years and I will bet it will remain that way for years to come. Deal with it or go join your local BB chapter where the UIL picks chapters for Regional Tournaments and State Finals.
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I can't understand why there is so much resistance to the UIL setting up a chapter rotation for playoff games. They do it in every other sport. Football is not "special". Let the coaches pick in the first three rounds. Week four and on is a rotation by chapters predetermined by the UIL. In week 4 there are 44 games. If 4 games are given to each chapter, then 11 chapters are guaranteed four quarter final games. The next week another 11 chapters are given 2 semifinal games. That is almost every chapter in the State has now had a quarter or semi game. The finals have 10 games which go to 10 different chapters which could be a different set up such as its own rotation or lottery system.
Now who gets to call the games is up to the chapters--which is another "hot topic" in and of itself.
If a chapter has two semi games, the next year it will be in the rotation of a quarter final and vise versa. It would not be a great system, but more playoff games would be available to smaller chapters that never get to work past the second or third round. True large chapters get fewer games, but hey go join a smaller chapter.
It is time to take the "sacred cows" out of the system.
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copedaddy: What is the matter with my HUDL system? Are you afraid of an actual assessment based on talent. Please explain to me how it is fair that a chapter with 84 people in it have the same shot at a game that a chapter with 900 people in it have? I am not one of the 10-12 crews in Houston that have a shot at a state championship every year. Trust me when I say that there is not a soul in Houston that has worked harder over the last 10 years at reshaping the mindset of the chapter then me. I want to get behind a change movement. Your plan is not the way.
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The Hudl system has merits, but only for those individuals who want or can apply that type of time. Do they use that system in other sports to select officials????
I have two championships, an All-Star game and several playoff and championship games at the JuCo level. I have been to the top of the mountain and after 35 years could care less if I get another one. But coming from a small chapter of over 25 years before moving to south Texas, I don't see why the smaller chapters with good crews that can get almost zero exposure, should be limited to almost no playoff games each year. Let the chapters do the Hudl system and select their top crews if they want to. But give all chapters a chance at the big game. Yes Houston will be a big looser in this system, but there would be a lot more big winners.
Fair? Hell no, but it is more equitable to all.
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the hudl idea has issues as well, while I am all for video review, and that is the only way to truly evaluate across the state, your idea as written is unworkable and remarkably exclusionary. You said that you had never seen a better idea put forward... SHOCKING... it was your idea... ;)
The biggest problem has been danced around and mentioned on another thread, is that as long as coaches have anything to do with the decision and "salesmen" are allowed to interact with them, then there will be issues. As someone else mentioned, as long as the local chapters of the "salesmen" don't have an issue with the sales techniques used or at least rumored to be used, then there really isn't anything that is going to change.
There is no way that the coaches would relinquish that perceived power that they have without a huge hissy fit, that toothpaste is long out of the tube, drying on the counter, crusty.. probably just dust at this point...
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The Hudl system has merits, but only for those individuals who want or can apply that type of time. Do they use that system in other sports to select officials????
I have two championships, an All-Star game and several playoff and championship games at the JuCo level. I have been to the top of the mountain and after 35 years could care less if I get another one. But coming from a small chapter of over 25 years before moving to south Texas, I don't see why the smaller chapters with good crews that can get almost zero exposure, should be limited to almost no playoff games each year. Let the chapters do the Hudl system and select their top crews if they want to. But give all chapters a chance at the big game. Yes Houston will be a big looser in this system, but there would be a lot more big winners.
Fair? HECK no, but it is more equitable to all.
How in the heck is Houston a big loser? They got 4 of the 10 games this year! Each year they get several of the games. Not knocking them but what about Amarillo or El Paso or some of the other chapters? Once the first round is over they are usually out of the mix completely.
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Coby, here is the problem with your Hudl solution. First, not all coaches will submit film when requested giving us the opportunity to view film. Second, who’s going to submit the penalty & complaint from the game? The coach…good luck with that. The official…then I’ll only submit what I know does not give me a downgrade in the review. Third, I highly doubt Mike has enough time on his hands to now start reviewing film from 24 different chapters and then anywhere from 15-60 games per chapter each week all to determine a grade to evaluate who ranks as the highest official/crew. Besides reviewing just the penalties & complaints you would have to include a review of all plays to ensure no missed calls or incorrect calls that are not listed as a complaint.
As copedaddy stated, having UIL institute a rotating schedule most definitely would not be a perfect system. I do not accept your statement that Houston having 900 members deserves more than a chapter having 84. If that was the case then Houston, Dallas & Ft. Worth should be working all playoff games after week 2 and all the other chapters should sit at home. That’s not right! In my opinion each chapter has a top 10% just like they have a bottom 10%. The top 10% in each chapter all work hard and, because of that hard work, deserve the same opportunities as others.
I respect your defense for your chapter just like you should respect others defense for their chapter and efforts. It would be interesting see responses if one year the big four did not get a championship game instead a chapter like San Angelo receives two games, Wichita Falls three, etc.
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So it seems the problem everyone is agreed on is the coaches pick scenario. The coaches are not going to let that go, so how about we find some kind of healthy medium where we still allow the coaches the freedom to pick their crews, but we require a number of qualifiers to that? Something like others have described above.
I really like Cope's suggestion about the 'graduation' process. If an official/crew is selected for rd 1 in a given year, then next year, he/they are available for selection in rd 2. I think this has merit(pun intended) and is a great way to showcase good up-and-coming or not-usually-seen talent from all levels. You prove yourself at every step of the way. It's very similar to how schools go from being a terrible team one season to district champs to area champs to state playoffs in succeeding years. Great idea, Scott.
I still hold by my suggestions in that we find some way to allow a more even distribution of assignments. Of all the available officials/crews that are available for each level of playoff, each chapter is allowed to submit, say, the top 5% of their chapters crews for available selection in a pool(similar to how baseball works). The coach still gets to pick, but it has to be from this pool of crews. Any open slots can be filled with another official in the list(for games with 7 man mech).
Finally, institute a chapter and crew cap per round. This would be dependent on the round because there would be more games to go around and we shouldnt limit a given chapter from working as many games as is logical. Something like 10-15 gms for rd 1, 7-12 rd 2, 5-8 rd 3, etc. These caps would exist for each division, not as a whole. For the crew cap there really should be a limit of 1 game every 3 days. Would anyone disagree that a crew that works Friday night is not as sharp on Saturday as they could be? You can work 2 games a round but it would have to be a Thu/Sat or Fri/Sun deal.
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I realize I am preaching to the choir here. My original journey to refstripes was to look for a place to discuss issues because I felt there were a lack of resources and opportunity out there for people willing to put in the time. Most of you can probably see a bit of yourself in that mindset. I get more training and rules help here then anything TASO has ever put out.
I understand where small chapters are coming from. All you want is your shot. I have been hEaDbAnG in a bigger chapter for a lot of the same issues at the local level. I just want my shot and a system in place where I can get better.
You are never going to get a rotation system passed the big chapters. If Big Sandy (my fictional small chapter) has their top 3 crews grade out to a 91 (when compared to all chapters across the state). Then big chapter H has 12 crews that grade out to a 91 or above. A rotation system is not the answer. I promise you that if there is a rotation system based solely on anything besides population size then Houston will just break into 8 smaller chapters just to increase our bingo balls.
The answer has to involve HUDL and a video resume. I have been the HUDL Bitc% for Houston for 4 years. There is not a single school that will not send us film. I get 40-60 films a week. Myself and the 5 other crews that I know ask for it the right way always get our film. When other crews complain 99/100 times they are not asking for the film correctly or consistently. If you do not have the time to review your plays on a weekly basis and create a playlist then you do not deserve to be in a rotation for quality games. Here is an analogy. Most colleges that require a scholarship essay do not read the essay. It is a way to weed out kids that do not want to put in the time to submit an essay. The kids that do submit an essay demonstrate that they care about their future. The same thing with HUDL. If you put in a playlist atleast I know you are watching film and attempting to get better.
Thanks
Coby "The Future President of Coby is Awesome TASO Chapter"
Welpe will be my Vice President
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You can still let coaches pick. They would just be told the San Angelo chapter is calling the game, and you have to pick one from there.
And yes big chapters may loose some, they only get 4 quarter final games instead of 11. deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:
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Again.. what inherent "right" does any chapter , large or small, have to get any game. If coaches pick works for regular season then let it work for playoffs (and this is coming from someone for whomthe "coaches pick" deal has not been so great).
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Personal opinion, but I believe they have the 'right' because they are a member of the organization that is TASO. I get it that you dont agree, Mike, and that's fine. All good people can differ in their opinions on certain issues. My only beef is that since everyone has a right, everyone should also be given a fair and equitable shot.
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I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.
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Personal opinion, but I believe they have the 'right' because they are a member of the organization that is TASO. I get it that you dont agree, Mike, and that's fine. All good people can differ in their opinions on certain issues. My only beef is that since everyone has a right, everyone should also be given a fair and equitable shot.
Check the TASO membership application. It has always said that acceptance of membership does not guarantee game assignments. And that goes for any games, not just playoff games.
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I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.
And I suspect this is going to occur once all games are completed and we reach the January 1st date where coaches may be contacted.....
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I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/09/0962a92f5e964434e331daaabeddea7a34260cb5d39991bafef54bacab1d06b9.jpg)
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Don't forget the "contact period" applies to chapter officers or designated representatives, not individual officials going out on their own.
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Ah, nothing like a discussion about who gets what State Championship games to liven up the boards before they die off for the offseason. Nothing like having 3 different posts of folks saying basically the same thing :)
I have chosen to respond to this post, but my points will be addressing various discussion points from across all 3 threads.
Full disclosure: I live in a metro area. I have not been picked to work a state championship game. Why does my chapter hate me! :o
There are a myriads of reasons that certain Chapters/Crews get games when others seem to get shut out. I will list them in no particular order.
1) Perception: There is a perception among the coaches that the bigger chapters have the "best" crews and call the "biggest" games. This seems to get "validated" as we get deeper into the playoffs were the smaller chapters seem to get less games as we go along. Once you get to the state championship game, coaches perceive that the only larger chapters can provide a crew that can appropriately handle the game.
2) The "bigness" of the game itself: For the coaches/players - this is their biggest game of the year. They try to reduce the amount things they have to worry about so they go with officials from bigger chapters because of the above stated perception. The last thing they want to chance is getting a "rogue" crew.
3) Teams represented. As we get deeper into the playoffs, the teams that remain tend to be from bigger areas at the higher classifications. At the lower classifications, they have started to move to crews from the larger metro areas because of the perception of the bigness of the game. So now these smaller schools become more familiar and more comfortable with crews from the larger areas.
4) Coaches talk. Coaches talk. They start asking who is good and they are asking what chapters are good and what guys are good from those chapters. They trust each other, so when a lower classification coach make ask his friend who is a coordinator at a higher classification, they get the chapters those guys are familiar with.
Taking all of these items, each one is known to be a "truth" but each on is nebulous in and of itself. I highly doubt the R's calling coaches saying "pick me, pick me" (although I am sure that does happen, I dont think it happens for State Championship games).
There are two separate "issues" at discussion here. First is why do small chapters get shut out. Second is why does it seem to be the same crews getting these games.
Why is it the same crew (specifically speaking of the Tyler crew)? Because they are a known quantity. I believe they were specifically requested (is that correct)? The coaches know what they get with this crew. Not that they are the best, but just that there is some consistency. That plays to #2 above. One less thing the coaches have to worry about. This goes for all coaches, which is why the feel "comfortable" using the bigger chapters and why the smaller ones get shut out.
Why do the smaller chapters get shut out from teams used to using smaller chapters during the regular season? Now that one, is a mystery to me. I mean, from 2A to 4A, there are 11 of 12 schools (I think, might be 10 of 12) that do NOT use the big chapters for their regular season. Yet in the post season, they use other chapters instead of their home chapters. Certainly one of these crews could have been selected. Is that the coaches fault? Why wouldnt it be? So, this one, i dont know. But the lower classification games would seem where the smaller chapters would get their shot because of familiarity of the coaches with smaller chapters. That they chose not to go that route, seems odd. Or not.
So, in order to "fix" it ALL of the above has to be taken into consideration. I think there is just too much inertia unless someone passes a law. And I think we can agree that when govt gets involved, things get messed up even more.
Remember, the trees were all kept equal by hatchet, ax and saw.
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Well put PSV.
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I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.
This is my post of the year nomination
We have no data on anything in this organization. Heaven Forbid we ever send out a survey to any of the coaches on why they choose the crews they choose, what characteristics they are looking for in a crew, what chapter perceptions are out there etc etc etc. We have no data on anything. Do we look at our zebra ware foul report data as a whole? What chapters call the fewest penalties? How can we conduct training without data? I think it is really funny that some crews think they need to dress alike and wear sports coats to games. Why?
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Why is it that the NFHS board isn't on fire like the Texas board is over playoffs? deadhorse:
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HoustonRef = troll. Please ban.
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HoustonRef = troll. Please ban.
I posted in this thread also, Cibolo Steele catch in the end zone for touchdown. You might want to go ask to ban me in that one also.
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I have been fortunate to have been assigned one (old) 5A state championship game, and I had a good run where I worked (old) 5A and 4A semi-final games six years in a row. Because of chapter by-laws, I had to move to a different crew twice in a 10 year period, or I would have had 2 additional state championship games. Now as an R with my own crew for the last three years, I have not had that kind of run. That's just the way it goes. You never know how you may get a game. One year we got one because a retired coach that knew the R had a son going to one of the schools. He recomended us to the head coach. The other school had an AD that has used us at a school he previously worked at. You do a good job in a high profile game and your name gets around.
So....for the Tyler crew. They got the big games, and they have worked big games in the past. (see the Tyler website) Congrats. If they weren't any good, I don't think they would be working as many as they have, year after year.
Should it be assigned by TASO or UIL? I don't think so. More administration.
Just be happy with the game you got.
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A. Be happy with the game you get
B. get on a crew that is in position to get the games you desire
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Check the TASO membership application. It has always said that acceptance of membership does not guarantee game assignments. And that goes for any games, not just playoff games.
You're talking about individuals. Im talking about CHAPTERS. I believe that each individual chapter does have the right, based on it's membership in TASO, to get at least 1 Qtr or Finals game once every 3-4 years.
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That is a pretty Socialistic viewpoint. I believe it free-market capitalism. You don't have a right to it you have to earn it. How would you feel if they said every school have a right to be in the championship game every so often so it didn't matter about your record during the season the championship teams would be decided ahead of time.
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I believe that each individual chapter does have the right, based on it's membership in TASO, to get at least 1 Qtr or Finals game once every 3-4 years.
That's just like the "trophy for everyone" mentality.
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You know, I go back to the point I made earlier in relation to how many games these smaller chapters get:
11 of the 12 teams from 2A - 4A are *NOT* covered by the HOU/DAL/FW/AUS/SAT chapters (it might be 10 of 12). Yet, when you see the chapters/crews that works these games in the playoffs and State Championships, many times they (the schools) are choosing these larger chapters over the smaller ones.
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You know, I go back to the point I made earlier in relation to how many games these smaller chapters get:
11 of the 12 teams from 2A - 4A are *NOT* covered by the HOU/DAL/FW/AUS/SAT chapters (it might be 10 of 12). Yet, when you see the chapters/crews that works these games in the playoffs and State Championships, many times they (the schools) are choosing these larger chapters over the smaller ones.
It's obvious they are leaving the smaller chapters out of the mix because they don't want the best officials. I'm kidding. For the most part we have a good number of schools that are in the championships pretty consistently each year or so. It's only natural for them to continue to use the same chapters. Then you get a new team in and I'm sure they talk to the coach who was there last year on who they used. This is how you get the repeat crews and chapters each year. Unless those guys just totally burn a bridge with those schools, the other chapters will not get the chance. The other side of that is, I have heard from some schools that tell me that they will never use some of those big chapters. Unfortunately none of those schools have gotten that far, but if the tide turns we could just see the conversation be just the opposite. "It's no fair, us big chapters never do get any of the games. Why do only the smaller chapters keep getting the games." I come from a small chapter for the record. All I can say is leave a positive impression on every school you work regardless if they are a school you cover or a visiting school. Jr. High thru Varsity. Make it your point that they remember your name.
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It's obvious they are leaving the smaller chapters out of the mix because they don't want the best officials. I'm kidding. For the most part we have a good number of schools that are in the championships pretty consistently each year or so. It's only natural for them to continue to use the same chapters. Then you get a new team in and I'm sure they talk to the coach who was there last year on who they used. This is how you get the repeat crews and chapters each year. Unless those guys just totally burn a bridge with those schools, the other chapters will not get the chance. The other side of that is, I have heard from some schools that tell me that they will never use some of those big chapters. Unfortunately none of those schools have gotten that far, but if the tide turns we could just see the conversation be just the opposite. "It's no fair, us big chapters never do get any of the games. Why do only the smaller chapters keep getting the games." I come from a small chapter for the record. All I can say is leave a positive impression on every school you work regardless if they are a school you cover or a visiting school. Jr. High thru Varsity. Make it your point that they remember your name.
tiphat: tiphat: tiphat:
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That is a pretty Socialistic viewpoint. I believe it free-market capitalism. You don't have a right to it you have to earn it. How would you feel if they said every school have a right to be in the championship game every so often so it didn't matter about your record during the season the championship teams would be decided ahead of time.
You are not advocating free market capitalism. When the coaches are in the selection process, it is about networking. The coach from Big Bend doesn't know Dallas chapter guys...so he calls his college buddy who coaches in Mesquite and asks him who he should use. Now...the guy making the selection is on a blind date. That isn't free market...it is cronyism.
I don't necessarily know how to fix it in a state that is this large other than having a neutral chapter rank their crews and send some of their best...but don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining. I do know this. There are a lot of great officials sitting at home this weekend...and they are WAY better than what I've seen on TV. If this were a free market game...these 65 year old/300 pound guys would not be in Dallas. In a state with 10,000+ active football officials, You can stay in the top 10% and still give a lot of guys the honor of working a state final. Rotation amongst men and chapters would not collapse the system. Sharing is Caring!
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Free market means people who are buying the service can buy who they want. I am in a company based in Texas. We bought a building in another state. I need a vendor in that state to do a certain service at that building. I don't have to use the company "who's turn it is." I checked my contacts in the state, did some research and picked the vendor myself. That is the free market
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deadhorse:
Again, though, why is coach in Fort Bend calling his buddy in Dallas looking for a crew. What is wrong with the crews that he is familiar with that normally work his games?
That is the point. These smaller schools go looking for the bigger chapters in the playoffs, especially as they get deeper. I am not dumb to believe that there is no soliciting going on, but the coaches are the ones that go looking for the larger chapters in most cases.
I dont know why that is, but that is what they do.
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This thread has run its course.