RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: TXMike on September 06, 2015, 01:00:23 AM
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Speechless.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCrs63JeuM
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http://deadspin.com/high-school-football-players-target-light-up-poor-offi-1728999161?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow (http://deadspin.com/high-school-football-players-target-light-up-poor-offi-1728999161?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow)
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This is assault, right? I hope criminal charges are made.
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Has it really come to this?
http://deadspin.com/high-school-football-players-target-light-up-poor-offi-1728999161?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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TXMike, I hope this gets passed on the chapter board and an investigation is started.
What would happen at school if too kids did this? It is a school function and school rules apply.
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It is well underway already.
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Not sure that I could maintain my composure after being assaulted like that. I would like to see the subsequent video to see how the on the field crew handled things. Still really can't grasp it. Unbelievable. I mean just Friday nite I was told I should not have Christmas this year but this is ridiculous.
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Unbelievable. Players should be removed from the team permanently. I think there's a good case for criminal charges to be filed.
When these two criminals were taken to the sideline by the R, anything other than extreme cooperation from the coaching staff, and I say call the game. Turn it over to the state and let them deal with it.
There's a good chance the two criminals were stupid and acting on their own. If so, you will know by the reaction of the staff. If they are as incredulous as the officials, and they should be, OK, don't take it out on the rest of the team. But if their reaction is anything less than that, call it and get out of there.
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Ive been saying for years this was going to happen. This is a really horrible incident. We should all be very cautious about how we respond about this.
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How is the official?
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An investigation? For what? It's plain as day what happened. There is nothing that official could do that would deserve that. That's plain out assault with a deadly weapon. I may be harsh but that school would no longer get the service from our chapter. I know that punishes the other kids that may not have been involved but it may serve as a lesson for all kids that this will not be condoned. You screw up, the whole team is punished.
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These two players should be banned from all Texas High School sports for life. Both should have been arrested and cuffed on the sidelines in full view of the coaches, players and fans. It's the only way to emphasize that this will not be tolerated at any level.
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Doc, an almost identical incident happened a few years back in a Texas HS playoff game.
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This needs to be resolved quickly, like this week before other thugs get the same idea.
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If I'm not mistaken an almost identical situation occurred which prompted a change in the law making assault on an official a felony. Now is the time to test that new law.
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"These are just kids who made a very poor choice." Just wait. Someone in a position of authority is about to say this. Civil suit for medical bills, lost work time and other wages should be forthcoming. The first person that tries to convince this official to to just let it go should get the same treatment as the official. If the official had hit a kid how bad would this be?
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This is pre meditated. They had to go back to the Huddle and choose to hit the official like this. The other team was running out the clock so they had 25-35 seconds to think about the situation and they still chose to behave like they did. Rational humans do not behave like this. I understand the whole heat of the moment argument but this was much longer then right after a call.
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Is #14 at the end of the play clapping because he missed the tackle or because his buddies got the official?
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The challenge will now be on us as we officiate our games. As we know, officials get hit in every game by incidental contact with absolutely no intent. But now that this is fresh on our minds we'll have to restrain ourselves not to react negatively to those who accidentally run into us. Let's just hope there are no copycats out there. This is sad that not only do we have to judge the legality of hits to opposing players, but now we have to officiate hits to officials.
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While we need to wait and see what the school/district/UIL does with these players, IF they return for whatever reason, no chapter in Texas should work that school -- regular season or playoffs -- with them on the field.
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Why is there any discussion about how the State or school will handle this? Anything short of lifetime ban from high school sports is ridiculous. There is no other option.
The discussion should be with this guy: http://www.33districtattorney.com/ and what charges will be filed (not should be filed, but will be filed).
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The video is all over facebook and the number of idiots replying that this is ok and should happen more often is astounding. Just more dumbing down of society in general and the attitude of a lot of people about sports officials. This behavior is totally unacceptable and these two idiots should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law
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The video is all over facebook and the number of idiots replying that this is ok and should happen more often is astounding. Just more dumbing down of society in general and the attitude of a lot of people about sports officials. This behavior is totally unacceptable and these two idiots should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law
. P.s. There are a lot more replies that feels the way i do
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In Florida they would have been handcuffed and taken to jail before they had the chance to get out of the locker room. Texas needs to legislate a law like Florida. Assault or assault and battery of a game official is a felony. End of story. That protects officials at all levels and puts and emphasis on the stupidity of emotional reaction during and after games.
According to claims coming out of facebook, the players are now claiming that the official was using racial slurs against them. Sorry boys, wrong excuse. Smile for the camera.
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How is the official?
Has anybody heard anything?
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i dont want to speak for him, but he is in pain, sore and its getting worse not better.
For those that dont know him, he's one of the nicest soft spoken individuals one could meet. To the extent there is an effort to justify this by claiming he said a racial slur I call BS. Not just BS that it didnt happen (there's no way that guy said a racial slur), but also BS that would justify this action anyway. The latter is not a debate i care to get into because it didnt happen to begin with.
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Potential actual applicable law
PENAL CODE
TITLE 5. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON
CHAPTER 22. ASSAULTIVE OFFENSES
Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.
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(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (3) is a Class C misdemeanor, except that the offense is:
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(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed by a person who is not a sports participant against a person the actor knows is a sports participant either:
(A) while the participant is performing duties or responsibilities in the participant's capacity as a sports participant; or
(B) in retaliation for or on account of the participant's performance of a duty or responsibility within the participant's capacity as a sports participant.
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(e) In this section:
...
(4) "Sports participant" means a person who participates in any official capacity with respect to an interscholastic, intercollegiate, or other organized amateur or professional athletic competition and includes an athlete, referee, umpire, linesman, coach, instructor, administrator, or staff member.
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What the heck? They should be banned.
http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/high-school-target-referee/
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Saw this video posted on a news channel earlier this morning. From the video there is no doubt in my mind that both players intentionally went after the official. At a minimum these players have no business being allowed to continue to be a part of this team. The state association and the school should take disciplinary action against them. In our state there is a specific law regarding assaults on sports officials, and if this happened to me I would have to consider looking at my options in the same manner as if I had been assaulted by a coach or fan. The players involved should also know if the official was seriously injured they could possibly be liable in a civil suit. This appears to be a deliverate act that is entirely outside the scope of the game.
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This is nothing short of a criminal assault by both players and it NEEDS to be prosecuted as such. Disqualifications are sufficient for cursing an official or an accidental bump during an argument or other dispute. This is so far beyond any of that it can't be let to happen without CRIMINAL PROSECUTION. This kind of thing is a threat to the sport of football.
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"These are just kids who made a very poor choice." Just wait. Someone in a position of authority is about to say this. Civil suit for medical bills, lost work time and other wages should be forthcoming. The first person that tries to convince this official to to just let it go should get the same treatment as the official. If the official had hit a kid how bad would this be?
I dislike the media.
https://twitter.com/noaveragejoejr/status/640569321664610305 (https://twitter.com/noaveragejoejr/status/640569321664610305)
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hEaDbAnG
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^flag
It's not very often that the Ol' Arbitrator crawls up out of the woodpile, but this story definitely has me absolutely fuming!
If these thugs pulled on a street corner what they pulled between the white lines, they would be summarily hauled off with no questions asked! At an absolute best, they need to be suspended from playing and to be indicted by a criminal court grand jury for criminal assault!
And if later investigation finds that either a head or assistant coach ordered this "hit," then they need to brought to the well and charged with criminal conspiracy and never be permitted anywhere near a school or college ever again! z^
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Of course race or racial statements will be used as an excuse. That is what we do now to deflect the real blame.
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Just got an email from TASO...the boss doesn't want us talking about this incident on the interwebs. Can TASO restrict our membership in the organization for expressing our first amendment rights?
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Call your boss a ******* on the web and how long is he your boss?
None of us happy but what good is our 2 cents worth?
Just another mechanic we need to include, watch out for your crew members.
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Time to move umpires into the offensive backfield, like tomorrow.
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Time to move umpires into the offensive backfield, like tomorrow.
Agree.
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http://espn.go.com/moresports/story/_/id/13596539/northside-independent-school-district-investigates-john-jay-high-school-players-hit-referee
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I dislike the media.
https://twitter.com/noaveragejoejr/status/640569321664610305 (https://twitter.com/noaveragejoejr/status/640569321664610305)
Some may remember sportscaster Joe Reinagel (tweeted above) airing a bad hit on an Umpire (not intentional by the player) on his nightly newscast and laughing about it. Several of us called him out on it and he apologized. I see he's jumping on the race card bandwagon.
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Just got an email from TASO...the boss doesn't want us talking about this incident on the interwebs. Can TASO restrict our membership in the organization for expressing our first amendment rights?
you are not the first who seemed to have missed the policy out of TASO earlier this year on social media. While I do not agree with all of it, fact is I am willing to comply because I want to be part of the organization The message today is a restatement of that policy
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So Reinangle condones killing Police Officers because of an unkind comment? The one needing to be fired is Reinangle.
In over 20 years I've experienced one occasion where an Umpire almost, almost said something stupid. We stopped him before it got out and I talked him down while the White Hat smoothed things over. I highly doubt our comrade in Texas uttered a word out of line.
I pray these were two rouge players and not the work of a coach. The racial slur excuse came out and will fail next will be " The coach told me to do it!"
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Even if the umpire had said something inappropriate earlier in the game, I cannot see how that is justification for the behaviour of the two individuals. As a minimum they should be banned from the sport and face the due process of the legal system. If (let's be theoretical for a moment) a sports official makes an inappropriate remark, then there are complaints processes for dealing with this which do not include outright thuggery!
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"The Umpire said something" is just another version of "The dog ate my homework", the only difference being too many people have been bullied into accepting that nonsense. The Schools, the Leagues, appropriate Authorities are so buried under the weight of "Political Correctness" they're frozen into fear of taking PROPER action, which only serves to embolden, encourage and generate MORE bad behavior.
These two THUGS should have been arrested ON THE FIELD & LED OFF IN HANDCUFFS. Unfortunately, like way too many others, these two apparently, have learned and believe, they are somehow empowered to do what ever THEY decide needs to be done, for whatever reason THEY choose...and nobody will stand up and correct them. In so many ways, "We reap what we sow" and then have to deal with the results of the harvest.
We're still hearing about an "Alter Boy" in Ferguson, who in reality was proven simply to be a THUG, bullying a much smaller merchant to TAKE what he wanted, without apparent concern or regret, and then tried to IMPOSE his will on, and bully a Police Officer and TAKE his weapon. THANKFULLY, he bit off a lot more than he could chew, and sadly learning a BASIC lesson, we all need to learn and accept sooner or later, that cost HIM wasting HIS life.
THUGGERY has nothing to do with color, it's all about chosen BEHAVIOR, and comes in all colors and flavors. Man has been taught for eons that allowing it, appeasing it, excusing it, tolerating it, ignoring it or turning a blind eye towards it, in hopes it would self correct, has NEVER worked to eliminate or even discourage it. About some things we're painfully slow learners, and have have to be taught the same harsh lesson, over and over again.
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https://www.facebook.com/FOXSportsSouthwest/videos/10153214914864624/
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https://www.facebook.com/FOXSportsSouthwest/videos/10153214914864624/
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"Back Judge", Mike?
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Just got an email from TASO...the boss doesn't want us talking about this incident on the interwebs. Can TASO restrict our membership in the organization for expressing our first amendment rights?
Just FYI -- your "first amendment rights" do not work that way.
"Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;"
TASO is not "Congress" or otherwise "the government". TASO is a private group that is allowed to restrict the speech of those who may be communicating "as agents of TASO". You're free to make any statement you want on the internet. You're also free not to be a member of TASO. Membership in the organization is not protected by law.
Short answer, yes, they can tell you that. Long answer is way off topic for this board.
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Some may remember sportscaster Joe Reinagel (tweeted above) airing a bad hit on an Umpire (not intentional by the player) on his nightly newscast and laughing about it. Several of us called him out on it and he apologized. I see he's jumping on the race card bandwagon.
You might also remember that when Joe Reinagel did that, he played that U getting hit three times during the newscast and gave it his segment award of "The Hit of the Night" (or some such) along with his big chuckling.
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Oddly, the power is in the hands of the officials. while I am confident the players will never participate in another high school sport, the power ultimately resides in the power of the purse.
Let's say the coaches were somehow involved and are not fired but merely suspended. At that point all official's associations should unify in one voice.
1. Over 11,000 attended. At $5 a pop that's a 55,000 gate plus concessions. Cancel the contract and refuse to officiate any further home games. Gets worse if the thugs are allowed to play say basketball. Tear up that contract too. I am sure John Jay then looks at the lost revenue and decides two thugs and coaches aren't worth the cost. Allow the teams to play, just not at home.
2, All associations unified and refusing to officiate their home games in any sport.
I don't think it will sink to that level. The Association needs to have a heart to heart talk with the school. The ban on the thugs should include not only participation but also attendance at any sports event. School Officials are horrified. The film clip is everywhere and the rage against players is far greater than the vile support. Hopefully it's an isolated situation, but in reality, it's more common place than people think.
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Just FYI -- your "first amendment rights" do not work that way.
Short answer, yes, they can tell you that. Long answer is way off topic for this board.
This thread was moved from the Texas Board by the moderator. It was on topic when he posted it.
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This thread was moved from the Texas Board by the moderator. It was on topic when he posted it.
My point was that the legal aspects of "free speech" is not really football related and thus off topic.
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In February I posted the subject named Screaming Coaches. I feel this is where it starts. These kids see these coaches disrespecting us because of a call they didn't like. Then the kids think they can treat us the same way. I am sure these 2 players didn't start this game with the intent of committing this criminal act against one of our own. But they see it and learn from it. They don't know how to handle tense situations because they see the coach get aggressive and angry with us about calls and penalties against their team. The coaches need to lead by example, unfortunately, THEY ARE LEADING BY THE WRONG EXAMPLE.
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Can't argue about your "leading with the wrong example" advice, but these two learned their thuggish behavior a lot earlier than this game, or this season, and until THAT problem is corrected, this kind of crap is a threat.
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update http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/high_school/high_school_football/article/S-A-high-school-football-players-suspended-after-6488729.php
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Agree with Upstate. This is learned at home and filters into the school. The school does nothing so the kids think it's acceptable behavior.
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I agree with you guys, this was learned way before this past weekend. But these coaches have an obligation to teach these kids respect, and to show it. Some of these kids have never had someone to look up to. If they look up to another bad example, then it is no good.
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Didn't see this mentioned but I hope all chapters, especially San Antonio, will refuse to officiate their games at all levels.
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Didn't see this mentioned but I hope all chapters, especially San Antonio, will refuse to officiate their games at all levels.
That is just wrong. Why are you punishing the Football program, including 9th and JV, for the actions of a few numbskulls. Unless someone can show it was "ordered" by the coaches -- which I find to be highly unlikely -- the players have been suspended -- likely to be kicked off the squad. And, as I understand it, this game was covered by the Austin Chapter -- Marble Falls home game.
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The team resides in San Antonio. That's why I said "especially San Antonio". It's not about who was in that game but future games. It may not have been ordered by the coaches but I also have no problem making the assumption the coaches have no discipline on the team and that's on them. Their (coaches and players) behavior does prove that.
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What did any coach do?
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I'm hoping that suspension is just an interim step and that they will both be banned from further participation in school sports for life. Being big on student athletes I hope they will be back in the classroom after discipline
I seriously think misdemeanor criminal charges and some court supervision might be their best chance at not being thugs for life. If a member of the coaching staff was involved a 3 or 4 year "death penalty" for the football program is warranted. Wanna play NCAA Rules... there you go
I'd also like to see the state take their gate receips for the year. Maybe some old broken smelly equipment will rEmin others
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Hurting the school financially is off the table. This school is in the largest school district in south Texas and one of the largest in the state. There are 10 schools in the school district in the state's largest classification and another one being built. Focus should be on these players and perhaps coaches if it can be proven they had anything to do with the this, which I seriously doubt.
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I also have no problem making the assumption the coaches have no discipline on the team and that's on them.
I wouldn't jump to this conclusion, but I would wonder about it.
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Whose responsibility is it??? The HC, and each assistant, is RESPONSIBLE for how ALL players behave during all team functions. They set the standards and requirements and are responsible to see that ALL players comply.
Some years ago, a local coach spelled it out simply and clearly suggesting to players, "It's your choice to play football or do drugs, you cannot do both", meant exactly what he said and strictly enforced it. Membership on a school team is something earned and should require consistent compliance with ALL team rules, or team membership ENDS.
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https://www.facebook.com/FOXSportsSouthwest/videos/10153214914864624/
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I agree with almost everything Mike says here. Unless something comes out about the coaches having something to do with this, don't suspend the team. Most of the kids on that team deserve better than that.
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Unless someone can show it was "ordered" by the coaches -- which I find to be highly unlikely -- the players have been suspended -- likely to be kicked off the squad.
"Did you order the Code Red?!?!?!" :)
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https://youtu.be/Psl7ZVwiRl4 (https://youtu.be/Psl7ZVwiRl4)
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From mysanantonio.com:
"Jay assistant Mack Breed has been placed on administrative leave, Northside ISD spokesman Pascual Gonzalez said at a press conference Tuesday. “This guy needs to pay for cheating us,” Breed allegedly said. The district said the incident involving the tackling of a ref could have been caused by missed calls. The players allege racial slurs were said to them by the umpire. Check the blog for more on the story."
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http://www.texashsfootball.com/i-try-to-keep-my-officiating-quiet-unfortunately-this-will-be-big-news/ (http://www.texashsfootball.com/i-try-to-keep-my-officiating-quiet-unfortunately-this-will-be-big-news/)
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http://www.foxsanantonio.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/john-jay-incident-assistant-coach-placed-leave-15735.shtml#.Ve8wX7SHlUQ (http://www.foxsanantonio.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/john-jay-incident-assistant-coach-placed-leave-15735.shtml#.Ve8wX7SHlUQ)
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UIL Statement
http://www.uiltexas.org/press-releases/detail/statement-related-to-san-antonio-jay-high-school-incident (http://www.uiltexas.org/press-releases/detail/statement-related-to-san-antonio-jay-high-school-incident)
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Same sorta incident happened to me about five years ago at Spring George Stadium. I was U in varsity contest. There were 2 PF thrown on players prior to punt. At snap an outside gunner came across and "cleaned me out". Now I cannot not do a flip or cart wheel. All I remember is hearing a loud crowd roar OHHHH. Next thing I remember I saw our wing (who is now a distinguished state rep) come up to me and said, Are you OK? White cap (who was a District Attorney by vocation) came up and he said I saw what that---did. Threw him out of game. It was kinda scary that he blindsided me like that and I went up in air, landed on field and only remember the sound of the crowd, blacked out, then staring straight up at my 2 fellow officials...
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Uh-oh.....
http://www.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2015-09-08/referee-hit-high-school-players-san-antonio-john-jay
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Regardless of what he said - and Lord knows that if he did in fact say what he's been mentioned as saying, I won't even try to defend that - this is still assault, plain and simple. (Or is it battery? I always get the two confused...)
I'm all in favor of the school not being suspended from playing football this season. I'm also all in favor of criminal charges against both players, and perhaps even a conspiracy charge against the coach if he did in fact say that "he needs to pay." If he did in fact say that, the assistant coach has no business ever being allowed on a football field again, period.
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Everyone, including the ISD brass, knows darn well the official did not say say anything remotely racial.
If this were a situation where players got up and then shoved an official after he supposedly said something, then yeah, I'd want to look into that further. In other words, an incident that occurred IMMEDIATELY after the alleged remark. Are you trying to tell me that the kids blew it off, then got together in the huddle LATER (even if only a play) and decided to retaliate by a full force run?
Also, look on the video of the actions of the MF player -- the one that runs up thinking he needs to block the first kid that hit the umpire. The FIRST thing he does when he sees that is point it out to another official to get a flag thrown. That's how kids (in general, but especially now) behave -- they look to convict someone who has done something wrong immediately. IF there was anything racial said, the first thing the kids that heard it would have done was immediately report it to the coach.
All this crap came out later.
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There has been a long-standing culture in Texas that officials don't flag coaches, period. The general feeling is that coaches are making a living and we are just doing an avocation, and we should always ignore or work-through bad behavior by coaches. I've seen times where an official flagged a coach and then later the official was blamed for just not handling the situation correctly, or said the wrong thing, or should have been more tolerant. Many times, as it appears that it is becoming in this situation, the victim is being blamed for the cause or has ownership in part of the problem.
In the end, we mostly don't flag coaches or report them because it just isn't worth it. This is what has resulted.
I'd like to see a neutral party or UIL representative do random audits of the actions of coaches and how sidelines act. I think it would really open their eyes. But, I don't think it is a culture that will ever change, or change very easily. Officials are just there to be made fun of and berated. It's been that way and tolerated for years and I think many of us have just come to accept it. If you try to be the Lone Ranger, you won't last a minute because you won't get picked.
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I've seen times where an official flagged a coach and then later the official was blamed for just not handling the situation correctly, or said the wrong thing, or should have been more tolerant. Many times, as it appears that it is becoming in this situation, the victim is being blamed for the cause or has ownership in part of the problem.
You can imagine what this incident does for us to attract and retain quality people to officiating.
Couldn't blame a spouse for saying to her husband who was thinking about officiating, "No way!"
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There has been a long-standing culture in Texas that officials don't flag coaches, period. The general feeling is that coaches are making a living and we are just doing an avocation, and we should always ignore or work-through bad behavior by coaches. I've seen times where an official flagged a coach and then later the official was blamed for just not handling the situation correctly, or said the wrong thing, or should have been more tolerant. Many times, as it appears that it is becoming in this situation, the victim is being blamed for the cause or has ownership in part of the problem.
In the end, we mostly don't flag coaches or report them because it just isn't worth it. This is what has resulted.
Could not have said it better! :bOW
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You can imagine what this incident does for us to attract and retain quality people to officiating.
Couldn't blame a spouse for saying to her husband who was thinking about officiating, "No way!"
I took this season off to spend more time with my family (and a very big part of that decision was sideline behavior).
This happening to a former crewmate will make it that much more difficult to look my family in the eye and tell them I want to go back on the field.
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There has been a long-standing culture in Texas that officials don't flag coaches, period. The general feeling is that coaches are making a living and we are just doing an avocation, and we should always ignore or work-through bad behavior by coaches. I've seen times where an official flagged a coach and then later the official was blamed for just not handling the situation correctly, or said the wrong thing, or should have been more tolerant. Many times, as it appears that it is becoming in this situation, the victim is being blamed for the cause or has ownership in part of the problem.
Coach your kids, stay out of the white, and let me do my job.
There were times I'd be thrilled to settle for one of the three.
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The Superintendent just said the kids need to know that two wrongs don't make it right . Meaning the official said racial slurs which resulted in retaliation by the players. I will not believe that official said any racial slurs period. When is our statement going to be made public ? Or are we going to just let this lie to be repeated so many times it starts being believed?
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I am just as guilty about coaches.
Friday night coach yells to BJ You're chicken----to make that call. All you officials are chicken----. I told HC and coach that yelled out if you want to blare out something general fine but now that was wording being directed personally to officials and should be warranted flagging. To my surprise, he apologized.
and behaved accordingly remainder of contest. On the other hand it could have gone on but glad it didn't. I always hear from the Chapter each year that coaches are "under pressure for their job". We are all under job pressure. Those actions (profanity, etc) are not permissible in classroom or even in our professional vocations. Why do we as an association continually tolerate and allow such behavior. Profanity in open society is not permissible. It is time TASO takes a bona fide charge to lead the directive to hold not only officials BUT ALL PARTICPANTS in the contest to the highest degree of integrity and decorum. Unruly behavior and foul language not normally permissible in our day to day societal living should not be encouraged, tolerated or slighted off. There needs to be acceptable standards of conduct. If it cannot be said or done in the classroom surely it should not be allowed on the extended classroom - the field, court, etc.
We need to as an association make this a priority. Coaches, staff and officials must all lead by example.
I'm down from soapbox.... pi1eOn
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I'm curious is this board considered social media?
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Then TASO needs to put a representative in front of combined Associations and take note of your frustrations. They need to be reminded that It's tough to encourage new blood into the brotherhood and tougher to keep them in place when the governing body turns their back and refuses to support them. At that point these overpaid Administrators can don stripes and stand the line to incure the wrath and abuse experienced on the fields from Jon Gruden wanna be's.
I rarely throw flags on coaches but I am not above nailing a coach whose voice I feel can be heard in the stands enough to blush the female and youth attending to enjoy a contest and not learn new four letter words or the verbal abuse directed toward officials.
You guys need better state legislation. The year after the Florida Law was passed, police escorted us on and off the field. All fans were presented with a copy of the new law. Coaches and players understood the consequences. Shortly after the new law passed, we were being escorted off the field at halftime and heard a Mother screaming at us because little Johnnie had just been legally trucked on the last play. She thought Johnnie had been mistreated. The Officer beside me excused himself because he needed to explain the Florida assault law to her. By mid year our police escorts subsided. I always had the feeling that if we didn't satisfy the masses we might be the ones cuffed and headed to see the judge, hoping the judge didn't bet on football.
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In Marble Falls, Texas this past weekend, an officiating nightmare took place. It took place and nobody was sleeping. Fortunately someone was videotaping the game. Without any room for equivocation, that video shows two players from John Jay High School in San Antonio purposely and with malice physically assaulted back judge, Robert Watts during the final moments of the game. He was viscously and without warning knocked to the ground by a Jay player and then, while prostrate on the turf, was helmet-speared by a fellow Jay teammate.
Robert is a long-time member of the National Association of Sports Officials. That fact energizes us to take a stand on his behalf. But, make no mistake, had Robert not been a member of NASO, we would be taking to the ramparts in his defense and in that of all men, women and young people who officiate our games.
What occurred that night on that field is unacceptable and we in the officiating community will not accept it. NASO has taken steps to ensure that Robert is provided the full benefits of NASO insurance, legal and consultation services. Whatever course of action he intends to take in order to have his assault properly redressed, NASO will stand in support of him.
NASO president, Barry Mano, has been a frequent and often quoted media interview about this horror. He has presented NASO's firm belief, backed unanimously by the NASO board of directors, that commensurate consequences must result from this act, wherever they may lead. Certainly calling to account the two players will be just a starting point. An investigation by the proper authorities and jurisdictions is underway now. The facts and the broader truths will be of interest to all of us in the officiating world.
NASO works in partnership with the Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) and the University Interscholastic League (UIL) in a number of officiating programs. The three organizations embrace the belief that assaultive behavior against sports officials will not be tolerated nor accepted at any level.
Just received this in my email. Thought I would put it up here for any non-NASO members to read.
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UIL Statement
http://www.uiltexas.org/press-releases/detail/statement-related-to-san-antonio-jay-high-school-incident (http://www.uiltexas.org/press-releases/detail/statement-related-to-san-antonio-jay-high-school-incident)
What a CRAP statement...
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Just received this in my email. Thought I would put it up here for any non-NASO members to read.
Thanks for posting this Casey. It would sure be nice if TASO would make a public statement!!
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I am just as guilty about coaches.
Friday night coach yells to BJ You're chicken----to make that call. All you officials are chicken----. I told HC and coach that yelled out if you want to blare out something general fine but now that was wording being directed personally to officials and should be warranted flagging. To my surprise, he apologized.
and behaved accordingly remainder of contest. On the other hand it could have gone on but glad it didn't. I always hear from the Chapter each year that coaches are "under pressure for their job". We are all under job pressure. Those actions (profanity, etc) are not permissible in classroom or even in our professional vocations. Why do we as an association continually tolerate and allow such behavior. Profanity in open society is not permissible. It is time TASO takes a bona fide charge to lead the directive to hold not only officials BUT ALL PARTICPANTS in the contest to the highest degree of integrity and decorum. Unruly behavior and foul language not normally permissible in our day to day societal living should not be encouraged, tolerated or slighted off. There needs to be acceptable standards of conduct. If it cannot be said or done in the classroom surely it should not be allowed on the extended classroom - the field, court, etc.
We need to as an association make this a priority. Coaches, staff and officials must all lead by example.
I'm down from soapbox.... pi1eOn
We tell our guys to draw a line in the sand and when they get within 10 foot of that line it needs to be addressed. We put up with way too much. Coach the players and disregard the officials and their calls.
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TASO published a statement early today.
http://www.taso.org/data/news/796/TASO Press Release 9-8-2015.pdf
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Yes they did. Exactly what I was talking about.
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TASO published a statement early today.
http://www.taso.org/data/news/796/TASO Press Release 9-8-2015.pdf
Oh, was there an email sent? I guess we just haven't received it yet.
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I took this season off to spend more time with my family (and a very big part of that decision was sideline behavior).
This happening to a former crewmate will make it that much more difficult to look my family in the eye and tell them I want to go back on the field.
I have taken a the last couple of years off from high school as well for some of the same reasons (family comes first), and as one of my old white hats used to say, my vocation kept getting in the way of my avocation. I miss the hell out of it, but I am somewhat leery of returning as in my last year, I had a coach charge at me from the sideline and threaten my life. I've had people yell at me and threaten me before. this one was different. He MEANT it.
I love football, I love the camaraderie with my crew, and there is nothing better than the feeling I get at about 7:29 on Friday night just before the ball is kicked. And the extra money is nice too, but I just don't know if that feeling, or that money is worth the risk anymore.
It shouldn't be this way.
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I am just as guilty about coaches.
Friday night coach yells to BJ You're chicken----to make that call. All you officials are chicken----.
:!# This is a real eye opener. If this type of behavior occurred during a game in Illinois that our crew officiated, an unsportsmanlike flag ^flag would be immediate and we would have full support of the IHSA. Our state leadership would not be happy >:( if we condoned this type of behavior during a game. The coaches and officials are reminded at every IHSA clinic and on every IHSA publication that the playing field is an extension of the classroom.
Many years ago an underclass coach used the "chicken dung" line (twice) towards our crew. He soon found himself on the bus waiting for his team. He also missed participating with the varsity team in their first round playoff game. (IHSA rule) P_S
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Looks like a team that was out of control to me. Two players previously ejected, then the two players attacking the official. These coaches obviously had lost control of their team and I believe have some responsibility here for failing to teach good team discipline. We all know teams on which behavior like this would not happen because the coaching staff had instilled respect and accountability into their programs. We also all know teams on which this type of incident wouldn't be a surprise because of coaching shortcomings along those same lines.
I know that no amount of good coaching can get through to some kids, but four players on the same team on one Friday night seems like a cultural problem on that team. Coaches set the tone.
I would be hard-pressed to accept an assignment to officiate any game with that coaching staff on the sideline.
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My 6 year old was crying when she saw the video. Then my 7 year old explained to her that dad is on the other side of the ball. Which helped for a second then she asked who was in the effected position and my son responded "your godfather Nathan". Which did not help the decibel level at my house.
This is going to further damage our recruiting efforts. This could serve as a catalyst for change but it will not.
TASO social media watchdogs... Roll this into a positive and make a hard stand on something please!!!
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TASO social media watchdogs... Roll this into a positive and make a hard stand on something please!!!
Good point Coby! But do you really believe it will happen?
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No decision after UIL emergency hearing on alleged targeting of official
Posted: Sep 09, 2015 12:17 PM CDTUpdated: Sep 09, 2015 12:17 PM CDT
ROUND ROCK (KVUE) - Officials from the Northside ISD, the Texas Association of Sports Officials, and others met Wednesday at an emergency hearing before the University Interscholastic League to address the possible targeting of a football official by two John Jay High School players.
No decision on any possible punishment was made Wednesday as the session was more for the various parties involved to report where they are in their investigation into the incident from last Friday’s game between John Jay High and Marble Falls High School.
In the incident, the umpire in the game was run over by a John Jay High player who appeared to target the official with the hit. A second player from John Jay High then led with his helmet and appeared to dive at the official who was on the ground.
Video of the incident has gone viral since the game. The umpire, who is from Austin, is “wanting to press charges” over the hit, according Wednesday, NISD superintendent Brian Woods told the UIL executive committee that he and his staff have been investigating the incident since Friday night and that the entire event “is shameful to us.”
“We do not believe that the actions of these young men reflect the young people who are in our schools and our athletic programs,” Woods told the committee Wednesday.
The committee heard Woods say that the incident was being treated as “an assault on a school official” when it comes to the investigation. Both students have been suspended from the football team and the school pending a disciplinary hearing that will come at a later date.
However, Woods also emphasized that there are more aspects to the incident than just the hit in the video that has gone viral online. Specifically, Woods discussed the allegations that an assistant coach, identified as Mack Breed by KVUE sister stations KENS5 in San Antonio, may have said that the umpired needed to pay for bad calls in the game and allegations that the umpire may have used racial slurs against players.
The head coach of the John Jay team, Gary Gutierrez, has already been cleared by the district of any involvement in the incident, according to KENS5.
Woods told the Committee that the assistant coach in question has also been put on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation into the incident.
When it comes to the official in question, identified by KVUE news partners the Austin American-Statesman as Robert Watts, the executive committee was told by the TASO Wednesday that he was not a regular member of the crew and instead a fill-in for the game between John Jay High and Marble Falls.
The game featured multiple objections and had at least one member of the executive committee asking school officials if the game was under control of the officials or coaches on Friday. A total of four players were ejected from the game that saw controversy all the way to the final play when Marble Falls kneeled down.
“We will be interviewing every coach on that staff to ensure that institutional control is not an issue,” Woods said.
According to testimony at the executive committee hearing Wednesday, TASO said it’s the normal protocol to speak to the players and coaches if a game is getting out of hand. TASO said it’s officials will either speak to a team captain or get communication to the sideline that a player may need to come out of the game for a play or two to cool off.
The TASO told the committee it has asked the crew members at the game to provide the organization with “a report on the incident, but start from the coin toss through the moment they walked off the field including any player interaction, coaching interaction, player on player interaction they overheard” and more. The TASO said the officials are working on that report to be submitted.
In addition, the TASO said that a director with its organization is analyzing the game film and making notes on any plays that may have been called for penalties and any that may have been missed. That report is expected to be completed and given to the TASO as early as Wednesday.
Marble Falls police said Monday it is also conducting an investigation of the incident. Marble Falls said they will hold a press conference about the incident on Thursday morning.
The UIL state executive committee can publicly reprimand or suspend a student athlete, but has more options to deal with participating schools. It can choose to impose a reprimand, public reprimand, forfeiture of contest, disqualify teams from district honors up to three years, or a mandatory disqualification.to ESPN.com.
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:!# This is a real eye opener. If this type of behavior occurred during a game in Illinois that our crew officiated, an unsportsmanlike flag ^flag would be immediate and we would have full support of the IHSA.
Me too - the flag would have been in the air as soon as he told the B he was dung, much less the rest of the crew. Anything that starts with you and is followed by an adjective is going to draw one, every time. And I have no doubts that the VHSL would support it.
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In addition, the TASO said that a director with its organization is analyzing the game film and making notes on any plays that may have been called for penalties and any that may have been missed. That report is expected to be completed and given to the TASO as early as Wednesday.
So, wait... TASO is even considering the possibility that any missed calls can mitigate what happened? Um, wow. Remind me not to work football if I ever have to move to Texas...
And I can say that, since I'm not in Texas...
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Yeah, lets try to do everything possible to say the crew is at fault and not these 2 upstanding young men!!!
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The TASO told the committee it has asked the crew members at the game to provide the organization with “a report on the incident, but start from the coin toss through the moment they walked off the field including any player interaction, coaching interaction, player on player interaction they overheard” and more. The TASO said the officials are working on that report to be submitted.
How long before there are common tater calls for us to wear body cams?
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TASO said that a director with its organization is analyzing the game film and making notes on any plays that may have been called for penalties and any that may have been missed.
If we're wasting our time doing this, we've already lost the battle.
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I would like to think TASO is using the "review plays" as a delay tactic to come back with..."Our experts have reviewed the game in question and we are satisfied that it meets our standards and expectations, after hours of feedback from interviewing all members of the crew we can now state that beyond a shadow of a doubt our members behaved in a professional manner".
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Should be a neat poll. The Powers that be could really use this as a good call to action if they wanted too.
Coby
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Since Jay HS is not a part of San Antonio ISD it would seem a bit odd to refuse to officiate their games. I understand your point though, Northeast ISD.
A more suitable option would be to decline an assignment specifically for Jay HS.
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No decision after UIL emergency hearing on alleged targeting of official
Posted: Sep 09, 2015 12:17 PM CDTUpdated: Sep 09, 2015 12:17 PM CDT
ROUND ROCK (KVUE) - Officials from the Northside ISD, the Texas Association of Sports Officials, and others met Wednesday at an emergency hearing before the University Interscholastic League to address the possible targeting of a football official by two John Jay High School players.
No decision on any possible punishment was made Wednesday as the session was more for the various parties involved to report where they are in their investigation into the incident from last Friday’s game between John Jay High and Marble Falls High School.
In the incident, the umpire in the game was run over by a John Jay High player who appeared to target the official with the hit. A second player from John Jay High then led with his helmet and appeared to dive at the official who was on the ground.
Video of the incident has gone viral since the game. The umpire, who is from Austin, is “wanting to press charges” over the hit, according Wednesday, NISD superintendent Brian Woods told the UIL executive committee that he and his staff have been investigating the incident since Friday night and that the entire event “is shameful to us.”
“We do not believe that the actions of these young men thugs reflect the young people who are in our schools and our athletic programs,” Woods told the committee Wednesday.
The committee heard Woods say that the incident was being treated as “an assault on a school official” when it comes to the investigation. Both students have been suspended from the football team and the school pending a disciplinary hearing that will come at a later date.
However, Woods also emphasized that there are more aspects to the incident than just the hit in the video that has gone viral online. Specifically, Woods discussed the allegations that an assistant coach, identified as Mack Breed by KVUE sister stations KENS5 in San Antonio, may have said that the umpired needed to pay for bad calls in the game and allegations that the umpire may have used racial slurs against players.
The head coach of the John Jay team, Gary Gutierrez, has already been cleared by the district of any involvement in the incident, according to KENS5.
Woods told the Committee that the assistant coach in question has also been put on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation into the incident.
When it comes to the official in question, identified by KVUE news partners the Austin American-Statesman as Robert Watts, the executive committee was told by the TASO Wednesday that he was not a regular member of the crew and instead a fill-in for the game between John Jay High and Marble Falls.
The game featured multiple objections and had at least one member of the executive committee asking school officials if the game was under control of the officials or coaches on Friday. A total of four players were ejected from the game that saw controversy all the way to the final play when Marble Falls kneeled down.
“We will be interviewing every coach on that staff to ensure that institutional control is not an issue,” Woods said.
According to testimony at the executive committee hearing Wednesday, TASO said it’s the normal protocol to speak to the players and coaches if a game is getting out of hand. TASO said it’s officials will either speak to a team captain or get communication to the sideline that a player may need to come out of the game for a play or two to cool off.
The TASO told the committee it has asked the crew members at the game to provide the organization with “a report on the incident, but start from the coin toss through the moment they walked off the field including any player interaction, coaching interaction, player on player interaction they overheard” and more. The TASO said the officials are working on that report to be submitted.
In addition, the TASO said that a director with its organization is analyzing the game film and making notes on any plays that may have been called for penalties and any that may have been missed. That report is expected to be completed and given to the TASO as early as Wednesday.
Marble Falls police said Monday it is also conducting an investigation of the incident. Marble Falls said they will hold a press conference about the incident on Thursday morning.
The UIL state executive committee can publicly reprimand or suspend a student athlete, but has more options to deal with participating schools. It can choose to impose a reprimand, public reprimand, forfeiture of contest, disqualify teams from district honors up to three years, or a mandatory disqualification.to ESPN.com.
Fixed it for the delusional Mr. Woods.
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Thanks UMP62 Updated
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Just some clarification.
Jay is in the Northside ISD in San Antonio, not SAISD or NEISD.
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So, wait... TASO is even considering the possibility that any missed calls can mitigate what happened? Um, wow. Remind me not to work football if I ever have to move to Texas...
And I can say that, since I'm not in Texas...
Let's not over react. I certainly did not take anything bad out of it. Reviewing the HUDL for the game is no less than the NCAA would do, or I would hope that my Chapter would do. As an organization, we need to check to see what shows up on film. Do the personal fouls and UNS show up -- and properly called. Can we demonstrate as part of the story that we did everything right. Yes, no amount of right or wrong calls justifies the actions taken by the players and they should be prosecuted -- but if the players and coach are going to make claims about the officials "cheating them" by calls and non-calls -- which is what has happened, then TASO has an obligation to do through the tape.
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As this thing moves along I can't help but feel this will not end well for us. The allegations of racial slurs is actually being taken seriously even though they have been made by individuals with absolutely no moral character. Given the history of both TASO and the UIL, blame will quickly spread so as to be "evenly" distributed. They want this thing to go away and will take any action to that end. When it's all said and done officials will have to complete another feel good block on Arbiter instructing us in how we need to do better not causing this type of conflict.
For the past decade, there have been an increase in bench clearing brawls, cheap shots and un-sportsman like acts. We have filled out incident report after incident report only to see NOTHING of substance come of it. Last year my crew had 3 games with brawls and we officiated each by-the-book. Players are out of control and it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTROL THEM. This is a failure of coaching and school administration as well as UIL's blind eye to accountability. Unfortunately, TASO has failed to draw the line and demand that this be dealt with.
Maybe when I cool off I will stop having thoughts of ending this great adventure at the conclusion of the 2015 season (or sooner if this somehow blows up in OUR face). I can't help but wonder if others are thinking the same...I would have to bet "yes."
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Interesting read of a number of tweets from the UIL State Executive Committee hearing, logged by a San Antonio Express-News reporter:
"UIL executive director Charles Breithaupt said the UIL needs to go on record to not tolerate the abuse of officials."
"Breithaupt said it puts a bad light on one of the best things in the country, Texas high school football."
https://twitter.com/ben_baby (https://twitter.com/ben_baby)
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UIL State Executive Committee press conference
https://www.periscope.tv/w/aMBSCDU1NDMzNnwxT3d4V2pWYXdtV0pRvp4jKhHlS4nqIxOI1Z0gYkW0KRkbUR81q3u-a1R4nlA= (https://www.periscope.tv/w/aMBSCDU1NDMzNnwxT3d4V2pWYXdtV0pRvp4jKhHlS4nqIxOI1Z0gYkW0KRkbUR81q3u-a1R4nlA=)
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Players are out of control and it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTROL THEM.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, and I am in no way blaming the official or the crew for the assault that occurred- the 2 individuals should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible- but I am not sure I agree with this statement.
Once the officials assume control of the game, I think it IS our responsibility to control the players, and how the game is played. We obviously need (and should be able to assume that we will get) assistance from the coaching staff and game management, but the officials have responsibility for managing the game.
Have you never sent a player off for a play or two and told the coach he needs to calm down? I haven't worked in Texas, so I don't know if that happens, but I have done it (probably more than I care to recall).
Again, I am not trying to justify the attack, or place blame on the officials. I just could not agree with that statement you made. Again, I do believe that we as officials have some responsibility to help control player conduct, and should be able to partner with the coaches to ensure that, rather than have to worry that they are plotting bodily harm.
Maybe I've been out of the game too long.
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UIL State Executive Committee press conference
https://www.periscope.tv/w/aMBSCDU1NDMzNnwxT3d4V2pWYXdtV0pRvp4jKhHlS4nqIxOI1Z0gYkW0KRkbUR81q3u-a1R4nlA= (https://www.periscope.tv/w/aMBSCDU1NDMzNnwxT3d4V2pWYXdtV0pRvp4jKhHlS4nqIxOI1Z0gYkW0KRkbUR81q3u-a1R4nlA=)
So who is the first guy to speak on this video? Are you (or is he) kidding me? :!# "mentor these kids in a positive way"? Seriously? Mentoring should be at the hands of the Texas Penal System and the residents of the prison to which they are sentenced!
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GAHSUMPIRE
What you mention as "control" I define as administration and a bit of "preventive officiating." These things are our responsibility but if we send a player to the coach and suggest a cool down and he sends him back out with no intervention what have we done in the matter of control? We are simply not responsible for how these people act and have no authority short of our administrative power within the rules structure... we can't discipline or coach. Sure we can eject a player for violation of the rules but this incident shows how that can backfire. "Control" is the responsibility of coaches and the schools.
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Great case for why the U should be on the other side of the ball like they do in the SWAC and the NFL. Why shouldn't every official have all 22 players in front of them. This wont stop everything bad from happening, but will definitely get rid of this type of situation for the U.
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Gentlemen, do you remember just a few years ago when were faced with the possibility of the UIL taking over officiating?? We were worried that we would not have any representation. Where is the representation now???
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When coaching staffs are out of control, the players are out of control. They need to get control of themselves and it will work wonders to adjust the attitude of their players.
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Once the officials assume control of the game, I think it IS our responsibility to control the players, and how the game is played. We obviously need (and should be able to assume that we will get) assistance from the coaching staff and game management, but the officials have responsibility for managing the game.
NOT
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Great case for why the U should be on the other side of the ball like they do in the SWAC and the NFL. Why shouldn't every official have all 22 players in front of them. This wont stop everything bad from happening, but will definitely get rid of this type of situation for the U.
Blind Zebra - I am certain that if these players had intended to target the Head Linesman they would have gotten him. The position of the official is irrelevant to what happened.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I read a former player interview in which he stated that John Jay had been known for problems and this coaching staff had been brought in to clean up the program. Two ejections earlier one of which was the Star Quarterback. Four ejections in total. This was destined to end poorly.
There are games where you are confident that you have the coaches support and feel you are in control, then all hell breaks lose. At times there is no indication of the volcano erupting. Nothing excuses the actions of these two players. Had something been said to those players they would have run to the nearest coach and raised hell. The Head Coach would have raised the roof when the first microphone appeared. Not one word from him except for his statement on the players. The race card is a smoke screen pure and simple.
Everyone is doing their job in pursuit of an air tight case.
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This incident affects every official in every sport. From Coby’s kid crying, to mishatx’s validation for taking the year off, to my wife’s expressed (now with more justification) desire that I give up my high school schedule, to one of the official’s statement who was in that game “I cried 2 days later because those kids took something that I love.”
I received an email from our subvarsity assignor desperate to get officials to a game. I looked at it, I have the night off. But why would I do that game? I’d rather hang out with my kid. I feel good about that decision, and now I have added reasons to feel good about spending the evening with the munchkin and not a bunch of people who do not appreciate the time, effort, and altruistic reasons that I am there.
The response from the powers that be will speak volumes about how we are perceived and appreciated. I’ve never met anybody that pays the bills officiating football that is not in the NFL. We’re there because we love it. As somebody smarter than me said, “It’s the most fun you can have standing up.” While that person is clearly not very creative (…), his point is validated in the status Coby’s umpire plays in his life: his kid’s godfather.
Something very special to each one of us took a big ding. A bigger ding than any grader/evaluator has ever given any of us. I know the guys that were in that game are still debating how big that ding is. So am I.
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GAHSUMPIRE
What you mention as "control" I define as administration and a bit of "preventive officiating." These things are our responsibility but if we send a player to the coach and suggest a cool down and he sends him back out with no intervention what have we done in the matter of control? We are simply not responsible for how these people act and have no authority short of our administrative power within the rules structure... we can't discipline or coach. Sure we can eject a player for violation of the rules but this incident shows how that can backfire. "Control" is the responsibility of coaches and the schools.
HAshleyTX, I understand a little better what you are saying, but I still have trouble accepting that we are powerless to do anything in these situations. Perhaps it's different in Texas, or perhaps I have been away from the field too long, or maybe I am naïve.
I agree with you, we are not responsible for how they act, that's not what I said, nor is it what I meant to imply. But the tools you mention- preventive officiating, and administration of the rules are within our power to apply. I may be overstating this somewhat, but to simply throw up our hands and say we have no control, somebody (else) ought to do something, I don't think is the answer either. As I said in my original response :"I do believe that we as officials have some responsibility to help control player conduct, and should be able to partner with the coaches to ensure that, rather than have to worry that they are plotting bodily harm."
I will admit to perhaps being somewhat naïve on this, but we do have the ability to affect player conduct,(without being responsible for that conduct), and teaming with coaches, we should be able to control the game. Obviously, not all coaches are going to work with us as well as we would hope, but that doesn't mean we wash our hands of it.
We are not going to cure the worlds ills in 4 quarters on a Friday night, I get that. What those people do before and after the game is outside of our control, but I maintain we do have the ability to affect their actions on the field, and frankly the responsibility to try. I don't have my officials manual handy, but I seem to remember something about our responsibility to ensure safety and fair play. (That was in the NFHS book, I realize Texas uses NCAA, but I assume that there is some type of similar language).
This may not be an "argument" I will win, but it's what I believe. I wish you all the best, and I wish the official who was attacked a full and speedy recovery.
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Just read this: http://www.cbs19.tv/story/29991725/no-decision-after-uil-emergency-hearing-on-alleged-targeting-of-official
"The game featured multiple objections and had at least one member of the executive committee asking school officials if the game was under control of the officials or coaches on Friday. A total of four players were ejected from the game that saw controversy all the way to the final play when Marble Falls kneeled down."
So a member of the UIL Exec Committee is questioning if the crew had control of the game? I see this as a very bad deal for us. They don't trust us one iota and they are going to go to great lengths to implicate TASO and its members if they can to deflect blame off them and their crappy policies that allow coaches to select ("agree upon") the officials. I might be a tad cynical, but I'm afraid this could get UGLY.
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This incident affects every official in every sport. From Coby’s kid crying, to mishatx’s validation for taking the year off, to my wife’s expressed (now with more justification) desire that I give up my high school schedule, to one of the official’s statement who was in that game “I cried 2 days later because those kids took something that I love.”
I received an email from our subvarsity assignor desperate to get officials to a game. I looked at it, I have the night off. But why would I do that game? I’d rather hang out with my kid. I feel good about that decision, and now I have added reasons to feel good about spending the evening with the munchkin and not a bunch of people who do not appreciate the time, effort, and altruistic reasons that I am there.
The response from the powers that be will speak volumes about how we are perceived and appreciated. I’ve never met anybody that pays the bills officiating football that is not in the NFL. We’re there because we love it. As somebody smarter than me said, “It’s the most fun you can have standing up.” While that person is clearly not very creative (…), his point is validated in the status Coby’s umpire plays in his life: his kid’s godfather.
Something very special to each one of us took a big ding. A bigger ding than any grader/evaluator has ever given any of us. I know the guys that were in that game are still debating how big that ding is. So am I.
Great post Getting Fat!!
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I'm thinking we all have a different view on things come tomorrow and Friday.
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Blind Zebra - I am certain that if these players had intended to target the Head Linesman they would have gotten him. The position of the official is irrelevant to what happened.
Exactly. I have video of each position where the official gets rolled. It would not be that hard to make something appear to be accidental. The Referee position even gets rolled on changes of possession.
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I worked a sub varsity game today. As I walked out there in my Stripes Shirt. I felt the fans were looking at us differently, in a good way. Maybe realizing we are Human, just like they are. LOL. I Don't know if it was just my imagination, but it kinda felt good. No yelling by the coaches, just some comments calmly relayed to us. Let's go out this week and do our jobs. The job we all LOVE. Being on that Football field, in all the action. Knowing that we are there for a good reason. For the Kids, for our crew, for the LOVE OF THE GAME.....
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I worked a game last year for probably the most successful high school football program in our area. On a punt play, I threw a flag on this team for running into the kicker. Two assistant coaches started cursing and saying what a horrible call it was. On top of that his players were out of control and not listening to our warnings the whole game . After the play I walked up to the head coach and asked him "coach are you just going to let those assistants talk to me that way?" He was certainly standing close enough to hear their every word. What he said floored me. "I can't control them and I sure can't control the players. I'm doing the best I can." My response, "coach if you can't control them then don't ever pick me again because it isn't my job to get them under control, it's yours." Well, he didn't pick my crew this year and it sure didn't hurt me feelings.
Had a game earlier this year where there were several players from both teams that intentionally tucked their pants at the knee under so that they didn't come close to covering their knees. We told both head coaches and trainers and they didn't do anything about it. They looked the other way and waited for us, the officials, to be the bad guys and correct it. Maybe if we all started charging timeouts it might fix this problem. But why won't the coaches help?
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But why won't the coaches help?
It might be because it sounds like most officials in Texas are afraid of the coaches. The fact that you stood up to one who obviously doesn't need to hold the position he holds tells me you're not one of them. If every official on every crew took the position that we're not going to tolerate this stuff anymore just might be a start to getting your situation changed. Otherwise, it's business as usual and you might as well accept that and move on.
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Me too - the flag would have been in the air as soon as he told the B he was dung, much less the rest of the crew. Anything that starts with you and is followed by an adjective is going to draw one, every time. And I have no doubts that the VHSL would support it.
100% agree.
The only way to change this "culture" is to penalize such behavior EVERY time it occurs. Otherwise, we deserve what we get.
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It might be because it sounds like most officials in Texas are afraid of the coaches. The fact that you stood up to one who obviously doesn't need to hold the position he holds tells me you're not one of them. If every official on every crew took the position that we're not going to tolerate this stuff anymore just might be a start to getting your situation changed. Otherwise, it's business as usual and you might as well accept that and move on.
This is spot on!! As soon as our feet hit that turf, we have to take control. We cannot expect the coaches to do it. They prove to us time and again they are not interested in doing that. Once we start flagging everything that happens after the whistle and kicking players out of the game, they will understand that we have had enough and are going to take control.
Don't be in a hurry for this to get resolved. The players will be found guilty, but they deserve full due process as would any official that behave badly. When our members do something wrong, chapter officials start the ball rolling as does the state office, and it takes time to get all of the relevant facts, assemble committees for hearings and finally decide on appropriate action. I am mad as hell about the incident, but give all involved the time necessary to do the job right and not leave any stone unturned.
The video speaks for itself. TASO should review the HUDL film and evaluate the work of the officials just like any other game. That is how TASO should be involved in the matter and it is proper due dilligence. These two kids will suffer some stiff consequences and the asst coach will be selling used cars from now on. The racial slur issue will go away easily if some simple thought is put to it. If any official made a racial comment to a player, it wouldn't take two plays for the coaches to find out and they would be in the middle of the field having a heated conversation with the white hat. And going back to the asst coach...apparently he was only concerned with the officials cheating them with bad calls.
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100% agree.
The only way to change this "culture" is to penalize such behavior EVERY time it occurs. Otherwise, we deserve what we get.
Your statement indicates that we own a certain amount of blame for the situation we face. "Culture" is a combination of all environment surrounding the students and coaches. I submit that WE DO the things you suggested on a consistent basis but once again, our authority is granted by the rules of the game...not through any significant amount of influence and that influence is ALWAYS over powered by the influence of the coaches, school administration and home life. In the MF vs John Jay game, the officials had already exercised the use of the rules to address issues and it still did not prevent the players from assaulting the official. In a twisted way, their judicious application of the rules actually led to the assault. Here is where the problem lies. The "culture" has shifted to the point that any amount of authority or influence we have in the game results in possible physical retaliation. This is a behavior problem that was not tolerated when you and I were playing HS football. Our generation wouldn't even think of doing something like this because we were taught how to behave and not by game officials.
This is the dangerous current just beneath the surface and it's about to pull us all under unless those in position to correct it take responsibility to do so.
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It really all gets back to coaches being able to select their officials here in Texas. If you stand up to them in a way they do not like, they all talk and you wind up sitting home on a Friday night. We've all learned to be very, very tolerant with varsity coaches, to the point we allow them to get away with too much. If that were to change, I think the culture of who should be in control of the games changes. But, I don't ever see that going away.
Having worked in two different chapters in Texas, one with a long-standing coaches selection process, and one that does not allow coaches to select and assigns all games, I can say there is a distinct difference in how the officials interact with coaches. Simply put, if there is little worry about coaches not selecting your crew, there is less worry about doing the job you need to do.
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I must say that this whole "coaches picking the officials" thing is, in large part a major contributing factor to the issues that seem to exist in Texas HS football. Before you jump all over me, I'm not "indicting" all officials OR coaches' but, as an outsider with contact with a few Texas officials, it seems that the time has come for Texas to join the rest of the world.
Officials need to be assigned by independent Assigners with no stake in the outcome of contests. That's not to say that coaches shouldn't have some input into the rating of officials; but to select who works what game leads to the "fear" factor which has appeared within this and other similar discussions about Texas officiating.
It also perpetuates the "good old boys" atmosphere which not only finds officials past their expiration dates working games they can no longer handle, but holds back good younger officials - or discourages them altogether from continuing this avocation.
As long as the inmates run the asylum, the atmosphere of "fear of coaches rejecting them" cannot NOT affect the quality of officiating in Texas or anywhere else. Coaches seem to get away with almost everything - from profanity directed at officials to, dare I say it, directing players to take out officials who make a "bad call".
Enough already! tiphat:
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Having worked in two different chapters in Texas, one with a long-standing coaches selection process, and one that does not allow coaches to select and assigns all games, I can say there is a distinct difference in how the officials interact with coaches. Simply put, if there is little worry about coaches not selecting your crew, there is less worry about doing the job you need to do.
As an official who has always been assigned, rather than selected by the coach, I don't know for sure that coaches can "scratch" an official (though I'm pretty sure that it happens some). But even if a coach scratches me, he's still going to get someone assigned by our association, rather than being able to pick and choose an official. As an official here, I'm not DIRECTLY beholden to a school to worry about whether a particular game or even a particular call will cost me future assignments. If I'm doing my job correctly, even if there's a conflict with one given team that causes things to get that bad, I'll still be working somewhere. I wonder how much the culture in areas where the officials are assigned by an agent not directly working for the school differs from areas where the officials have to negotiate with a school directly.
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So much has been said in the past two pages that I agree with. I don't want to develop into an anti-Texas thread but I remember the debate a few years ago between the state governing body and the state officials association, which appears to be a somewhat different arrangement than most states.
We in NC appear to be similarly organized as VA. The state athletic association runs our playoff system and has a state level supervisor of officials. Each region has a supervisor that reports to him but are independent businesses in how they manage and book their officials for their region. None of us have to worry about negotiating contracts directly with schools. As VA said, if I'm marked off at a particular school, I'm still going to be working somewhere on any given Friday night.
It would seem to me that Texas might want to begin to look at changing some parts of their system to make officials less beholden to individual schools or coaches. One particular post about the head coach having no control over his assistants cursing at an official was maddening. Whether he can control them or not, they are getting flagged for cursing and ejected if bad enough. If an official is too dependent on that kind of system to worry about getting games to not take immediate corrective action beyond asking a coach to tone his assistants down, then perhaps walking away from the "business" is the proper alternative.
Sadly, much like most big media events, the spotlight on the issue will subside and we'll go back to being the "bad guys" again very quickly, just like the NFL guys when they came back from the lockout.
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HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches. You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.
Out of all of the UIL varsity football contests last year, which I estimate is around 5,800 games throughout the regular season, I would guess there are somewhere around 30 or less flags thrown on coaches for behavior. The UIL probably sees that as an indicator that there must not be a problem if .5% of all games have a flag thrown on a coach.
If we all took a stand, it would work and things would change, but the coaches selection process perpetuates this problem. The UIL direct has said that it will never change. But then again, he compares officials to Barney Fife when speaking to groups of coaches. That flag we carry is akin to Barney's one bullet in his view.
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HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches. You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.
Out of all of the UIL varsity football contests last year, which I estimate is around 5,800 games throughout the regular season, I would guess there are somewhere around 30 or less flags thrown on coaches for behavior. The UIL probably sees that as an indicator that there must not be a problem if .5% of all games have a flag thrown on a coach.
If we all took a stand, it would work and things would change, but the coaches selection process perpetuates this problem. The UIL direct has said that it will never change. But then again, he compares officials to Barney Fife when speaking to groups of coaches. That flag we carry is akin to Barney's one bullet in his view.
I rest my case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :!# :!# :!# :!# :!#
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Maybe it's different in other parts of the state, but I'm in Texas and have no qualms about flagging a coach. That's probably, like has already been stated in this thread, because I don't rely on coaches to pick me for assignments. Our games are assigned by the secretary of the chapter, not by coaches' picks. Just last year my crew had 4 flags on coaches for unsportsmanlike conduct in varsity games. One from L, one from H, and two from me at R. 3 out of 4 of those solved the problem almost instantly. The fourth coach got to have a meeting with our president and secretary as well as his AD and Superintendent to discuss why his actions were inappropriate and how they were not going to be tolerated. We got full support from our chapter board on every one of those flags. And we don't have to worry about where we'll be working next week. Whether it's for one of those schools or not, we'll have a game.
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Maybe it's different in other parts of the state, but I'm in Texas and have no qualms about flagging a coach. That's probably, like has already been stated in this thread, because I don't rely on coaches to pick me for assignments. Our games are assigned by the secretary of the chapter, not by coaches' picks.
So how does your area operate under different rules; and, if it obviously is a better mousetrap, why is it not adapted everywhere else?
Just last year my crew had 4 flags on coaches for unsportsmanlike conduct in varsity games. One from L, one from H, and two from me at R. 3 out of 4 of those solved the problem almost instantly. The fourth coach got to have a meeting with our president and secretary as well as his AD and Superintendent to discuss why his actions were inappropriate and how they were not going to be tolerated. We got full support from our chapter board on every one of those flags.
And well you should! So explain to us the actual role/purpose of the UIL and TASO. Sounds unnecessarily cumbersome to say the least....
And we don't have to worry about where we'll be working next week. Whether it's for one of those schools or not, we'll have a game.
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If a coach curses you, flag him. If he does it again, flag him again and eject him.
Reading some of the complaints on this thread, I think some officials need to review their rule book and see the ways it allows them to take control of the game.
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We operate under NCAA rules which do not call for the ejection of coaches. So, we don't eject coaches.
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If a coach curses you, flag him. If he does it again, flag him again and eject him.
Reading some of the complaints on this thread, I think some officials need to review their rule book and see the ways it allows them to take control of the game.
NCAA Football Rules Committee
Adopted February 2009
• After reviewing a number of plays involving unsportsmanlike
conduct, the committee is firm in its support of the unsportsmanlike
conduct rules as they currently are written and officiated. Many of
these fouls deal with players who inappropriately draw attention
to themselves in a premeditated, excessive or prolonged manner.
Players should be taught the discipline that reinforces football as
a team game.
• The rules committee reminds head coaches of their responsibility
for the behavior of their players before and after, as well as
during, the game. Players must be cautioned against pre-game
unsportsmanlike conduct on the field that can lead to confrontation
between the teams. Such action can lead to penalties enforced on
the opening kickoff, possibly including disqualification of players.
Repeated occurrence of such unsportsmanlike behavior by a team
may result in punitive action by the conference against the head
coach and his institution.
This pretty much sums up who is responsible for behavior, ie "control" of these players. I don't know where you officiate or how long you've been doing it but the officials are not the "boss" we're not 'in charge" and we're not the spotlight of this event. In my rule book it says we'll have "control" of the sidelines and that coaches should support us with "controlling" players with regard to talking to opponents. Don't see anywhere that says we "control" the game. perhaps you could share that?
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After a brief internet search, I found this document that TASO published. It was on Tyler Refs, but since it was from TASO, I assume it applies statewide.
http://www.tylerrefs.org/documents/2011TASO7OfficialMechanicsManual06_11.pdf (http://www.tylerrefs.org/documents/2011TASO7OfficialMechanicsManual06_11.pdf)
In the OFFICIATING REQUISITES section it states:
COURAGE: A smooth running game suddenly can get out of hand as a result of an overly
officious attitude toward players and coaches, or an undue laxity of enforcement. Conversations
with a coach or a player should always be courteous without sacrificing dignity. If something is
said or done which warrants a penalty, penalization should be done unobtrusively and without
dramatization. A game is kept under control by proper administration of the rules, which can be
best accomplished if no impression of militant supervision is created.
Since we as officials administer the rules, that would mean, according to TASO, that we have the ability (and responsibility) to keep the game under control.
TACT, BUT NOT SUBMISSION: Tact is necessary but should never be a justification for retreat
from a position properly taken or a decision correctly rendered.
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Refer to two post previous and you'll see my quote to that effect. Our authority is granted by the rules and we are there to see that the game is administered according to said rules. In those rules you'll once again, see who is responsible for control of players behavior...not us.
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Refer to two post previous and you'll see my quote to that effect. Our authority is granted by the rules and we are there to see that the game is administered according to said rules. In those rules you'll once again, see who is responsible for control of players behavior...not us.
You also asked "Don't see anywhere that says we "control" the game. perhaps you could share that?"
I will then submit this:
ARTICLE 12. OFFICIALS' “ABCs”
A - Ability to handle players in firm, fair, and friendly fashion.
B - Knowledge, understanding and correct application of the rules.
C - Knowledge of an adherence to approved mechanics
Doesn't A the "ability to handle" imply at least the attempt to control?
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GAHSUMPIRE
You do know we use the NCAA rule book right? Is article 12 you reference in NFHS book?
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HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches. You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.
Out of all of the UIL varsity football contests last year, which I estimate is around 5,800 games throughout the regular season, I would guess there are somewhere around 30 or less flags thrown on coaches for behavior. The UIL probably sees that as an indicator that there must not be a problem if .5% of all games have a flag thrown on a coach.
If we all took a stand, it would work and things would change, but the coaches selection process perpetuates this problem. The UIL direct has said that it will never change. But then again, he compares officials to Barney Fife when speaking to groups of coaches. That flag we carry is akin to Barney's one bullet in his view.
If a coach scratches an official here is my response, "Coach, in 3 weeks from now that crew is scheduled to work your game again. I will gladly honor your request to scratch them, but we will not have another crew available to cover your game." Guess what, the scratch is removed and the crew works his game in 3 weeks and by then he has already forgotten all about that crew.
With that said, I do agree we allow more than what we should. Case in point, I was working a peewee game, where coaches have no input nor can they scratch. First coach popped off about an apparent missed personal foul and I immediately flagged him. Don't yell at me. In baseball we have a rule that judgement calls are not discussed. If you complain about a pitch, fair or foul, safe or out, you get restricted to the dugout and do it again you get ejected. That's standard procedure and every coach knows it. We don't get scratched either because every coach and every official knows that's the way it is.
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HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches. You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.
Out of all of the UIL varsity football contests last year, which I estimate is around 5,800 games throughout the regular season, I would guess there are somewhere around 30 or less flags thrown on coaches for behavior. The UIL probably sees that as an indicator that there must not be a problem if .5% of all games have a flag thrown on a coach.
If we all took a stand, it would work and things would change, but the coaches selection process perpetuates this problem. The UIL direct has said that it will never change. But then again, he compares officials to Barney Fife when speaking to groups of coaches. That flag we carry is akin to Barney's one bullet in his view.
Doc, I call BS or horse hockey or whatever it gets translated to be!
You can and must flag the coaches at times when they get out of line. I didn't give a darn if they picked me again (retired now). Most of them after you flag them will calm down an come to their senses and actually apologize. The ones that don't you don't want to work for anyway. You should only do it needed, but their are times when you must (you with an adjective that follows, sidelines,etc)
If you let it go, you create a problem not only for the next crew but for yourself when you have them again.
I lived by the creed I may not be here next Friday but I will be somewhere.
Just my $.02 and now I go back under my rock
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GAHSUMPIRE
You do know we use the NCAA rule book right? Is article 12 you reference in NFHS book?
Yes, I do. Article 12 was pulled from the same document I got the other information from:
http://www.tylerrefs.org/documents/2011TASO7OfficialMechanicsManual06_11.pdf (http://www.tylerrefs.org/documents/2011TASO7OfficialMechanicsManual06_11.pdf)
It was on Page 6 of this TASO officials Manual. I apologize if I got this wrong, but I was under the impression that TASO was the governing body for officials in Texas.
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Exactly. I have video of each position where the official gets rolled. It would not be that hard to make something appear to be accidental. The Referee position even gets rolled on changes of possession.
Been there, done that, got the scars and the tee shirt! Don't think any of them were intentional but still we get in their way at times.
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Mechanics book...not rule book.
The manual of football officiating is designed to make available to every official detailed information regarding the officiating techniques which, through evaluation and studied development, have come to be recognized as accepted standards of officiating performance.
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Your statement indicates that we own a certain amount of blame for the situation we face. "Culture" is a combination of all environment surrounding the students and coaches. I submit that WE DO the things you suggested on a consistent basis but once again, our authority is granted by the rules of the game...not through any significant amount of influence and that influence is ALWAYS over powered by the influence of the coaches, school administration and home life. In the MF vs John Jay game, the officials had already exercised the use of the rules to address issues and it still did not prevent the players from assaulting the official. In a twisted way, their judicious application of the rules actually led to the assault. Here is where the problem lies. The "culture" has shifted to the point that any amount of authority or influence we have in the game results in possible physical retaliation. This is a behavior problem that was not tolerated when you and I were playing HS football. Our generation wouldn't even think of doing something like this because we were taught how to behave and not by game officials.
This is the dangerous current just beneath the surface and it's about to pull us all under unless those in position to correct it take responsibility to do so.
While I agree with you, my original "culture" reference was not aimed toward the players. It was in response to a post about the "culture" of officials being hesitant to penalize coaches in Texas for unsportsmanlike behavior.
I apologize if I didn't provide enough quoteage to make that clear.
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I think you and I have both become cross-eyed on this subject. My rants have been focused on control in the aspect of player behavior. I see your point on flagging coaches which I have done numerous times, all of which are addressed by rule but not just because they get on my nerves. I apologize also if that's tripped us up.
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Mechanics book...not rule book.
For the purpose of this discussion, what is the difference?
[/quote]The manual of football officiating is designed to make available to every official detailed information regarding the officiating techniques which, through evaluation and studied development, have come to be recognized as accepted standards of officiating performance.
[/quote]
As you say in your amended response, the items I highlighted are " the accepted standards of officiating performance." To me that means in TASO's eyes, the official SHOULD handle the player, and control the game through administration of the rules. I am in no way absolving coaches from the responsibility of handling/controlling players. What I have been saying all along is that it is (or should be) a collaboration between the officials and the coaches.
If the coaches abdicate their part of the responsibility, based on what TASO says, it seems like it is incumbent upon the officials to handle the players, and control the game through the administration of the rules.
I hold no brief for TASO, as I do not work in Texas, but again, I assumed that is the organization governing officials in that state, so I deferred to what they said.
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If a coach scratches an official here is my response, "Coach, in 3 weeks from now that crew is scheduled to work your game again. I will gladly honor your request to scratch them, but we will not have another crew available to cover your game." Guess what, the scratch is removed and the crew works his game in 3 weeks and by then he has already forgotten all about that crew.
Jason, you guys must assign games and not have coaches picks.
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Doc, I call HORSE HOCKEY or horse hockey or whatever it gets translated to be!
You can and must flag the coaches at times when they get out of line. I didn't give a darn if they picked me again (retired now). Most of them after you flag them will calm down an come to their senses and actually apologize. The ones that don't you don't want to work for anyway. You should only do it needed, but their are times when you must (you with an adjective that follows, sidelines,etc)
If you let it go, you create a problem not only for the next crew but for yourself when you have them again.
I lived by the creed I may not be here next Friday but I will be somewhere.
Just my $.02 and now I go back under my rock
Not saying I live by the culture, I'm just stating what I see as the culture in this area and with most chapter that utilize picks. In 27 years, I've never flagged a coach in a varsity game for behavior, but I've sure wanted to.
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What I have been saying all along is that it is (or should be) a collaboration between the officials and the coaches.
If the coaches abdicate their part of the responsibility, based on what TASO says, it seems like it is incumbent upon the officials to handle the players, and control the game through the administration of the rules.
I hold no brief for TASO, as I do not work in Texas, but again, I assumed that is the organization governing officials in that state, so I deferred to what they said.
I think you and I have said some of the same things only in different ways. To clarify, we don't have any control of player behavior other than the authority of the rules. They mouth-off, cheap shot, or commit any USC foul then we enforce according to the rule. When it comes to behavior and controlling the emotions of players, that responsibility falls solely on the coaching staff and the school who spends so much more time influencing them. Our presence on the field, our voice are techniques of officiating that have impact to an extent but its become more an more difficult to get results. When the coaches and schools AND parents fail to teach kids how to behave, control is lost way before we step on the field and there's nothing we can do to address it.
Texas officials do flag coaches who break the rules, we do flag and even eject players who break the rules but this incident is proof positive that its getting to a level that our limited authority can deal with.
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I guess I didn't realize Texas uses NCAA rules.
Utilize NFHS rules, and control you will have.
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[TX] operate under NCAA rules ...
Therein lies some of the problem as well.
Nearly all high school athletes are minors while nearly all college athletes are adults. Why let minors play under the same rules as adults?
Isolating one difference, I'd be curious to know how many 16/17 year old HS knees have been blown out by NCAA legal blocks below the waist that are illegal under NFHS.
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HLinNC, it is a cultural thing here in Texas, you just do not flag coaches. You might in a sub varsity game, but it just doesn't happen in varsity contests, or the official winds up getting blamed, or he decides to sit at home on Friday nights.
I guess I didn't get that memo. I've had a Texas state championship game and I've officiated one of the top 2 area rival games each of the past five years as well as go far into the playoffs.
I flag coaches when they earn one. Every single time. If a coach wants to scratch me because I hold him to the standard of the rules, I promise I'll have a different good game somewhere else that night and I won't lose any sleep over it.
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I guess I didn't get that memo. I've had a Texas state championship game and I've officiated one of the top 2 area rival games each of the past five years as well as go far into the playoffs.
I flag coaches when they earn one. Every single time. If a coach wants to scratch me because I hold him to the standard of the rules, I promise I'll have a different good game somewhere else that night and I won't lose any sleep over it.
:thumbup
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I'm starting to wonder if not flagging coaches is just a problem in chapters where coaches pick or just a problem in my chapter. Regardless, it exists here for sure.
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I don't have a problem with flagging coaches, I've done it many times. My problem is ejecting a coach, especially at the varsity level. We've all heard the horror stories of how officials get treated in Austin when it happens. It seems they usually slap the coach on the wrist and tell him not to do again and his name goes in the UIL Leaguer. And it's usually a slap in the face of the officials for not taking care of the game.
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Then it would appear to me that TASO needs to take this incident and use it as a method for some change, if they can. What that change is, is up to them.
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The situation I'm talking about in Austin is not TASO but the UIL.
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The situation I'm talking about in Austin is not TASO but the UIL.
Can anyone tell me what the UIL does with incident reports that we file? I have done many of these and never heard back and some of them were pretty significant happenings. I suspect they are file 13 since it doesn't appear anything comes of them.
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It is referred to district committee unless a coach ejection or UIL rules violation
Those are handled by UIL in Austin
We do not get feed back
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From SA Express News Article today re: Jay vs Del Rio
Based on the developments regarding the incident, University Interscholastic League deputy director Jamey Harrison said because of the added administrative and security presence, the team should continue playing. “We feel like it’s safe to move forward,” Harrison said Thursday. “We agree with the school district. It would not be appropriate to take that Friday night experience away from all of the other students from that community.”
Harrison also noted the individuals who might have been involved in last week’s incident will not be a part of Friday’s game between the Mustangs (1-1) and Del Rio Rams (1-1).
Senior Mike Moreno and sophomore Victor Rojas, the two defensive backs who attacked Watts from behind, were suspended from the team and school pending a disciplinary hearing that has yet to be scheduled.
Their Jay position coach, Mack Breed, was placed on paid administrative leave Tuesday among allegations Breed told the players Watts “needs to pay for cheating us,” according to the district.
Rojas was one of four players ejected from last week’s game. The other three — junior Daytwon Sheridan, senior Moses Reynolds and senior Trent Hobdy — will be eligible for the game, according to Northside ISD athletic director Stan Laing.
Sheridan and Reynolds were ejected for unsportsmanlike-conduct penalties. Hobdy was ejected after he was misidentified as one of the players who attacked Watts.
Laing said those three players were reprimanded by Jay coach Gary Gutierrez, who could not be reached for comment. The UIL does not prohibit players who were ejected from a previous game from playing the following week.
Perhaps the UIL needs to reconsider the stance on ejected players?
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To be clear, ejections are an entirely different matter. I've never done that, but I've never had a coach earn it either.
Based of my respect for their profession (one of the hardest jobs on the planet) and our rules and policies, they'd have to be extremely bad for that to happen.
Do your best, maintain control and keep it professional. Enforce the rules, even with coaches behavior. And if odd things happen (like attacks), I would hope that justice would be enforced and that the UIL and TASO will push for that to happen.
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I'm starting to wonder if not flagging coaches is just a problem in chapters where coaches pick or just a problem in my chapter. Regardless, it exists here for sure.
It's not just your chapter. I saw a similar attitude in my old chapter as well. That and refusing to throw out players when required (fighting). It's not every crew but there were more than a few.
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Why let minors play under the same rules as adults?
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Texas playing under NCAA rules is largely historical, but also has tremendous advantages. Officials can work college games with virtually no additional training. Although playing the game isn't a rules intensive exercise, players can go to college programs seemlessly. Finally, no one here is stuck with stupid Fed football rules. Fed. has its place with sports like basketball when there is a lot of schools crossing state lines to play (tournaments, etc.), but that's largely a non-issue in football. There is and never has been an issue with Texas playing NCAA rules except for people in other states that for whatever reason don't like it. I suggest all states go NCAA -- its a much better code.
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I suggest all states go NCAA -- its a much better code.
With a few minor exceptions, I'm inclined to agree. Especially with the latest revisions to low blocks in NCAA, I don't think there's a significant difference in safety between the codes. In fact I think in some ways the NCAA has a heavier emphasis on safety and sportsmanship with leading the way on targeting fouls being automatic ejections, all personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls being automatic first downs, and UNS fouls during the play being enforced as live ball fouls. There are also fewer instances where a team must decline a personal foul in order to keep the ball or the result of the play.
Fed is simpler but I don't think necessarily better.
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Finally, no one here is stuck with stupid Fed football rules
Considering what the rest of us have just witnessed in Texas, I think I'd be more careful with my word selection. :!# Just sayin'.
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With a few minor exceptions, I'm inclined to agree. Especially with the latest revisions to low blocks in NCAA, I don't think there's a significant difference in safety between the codes. In fact I think in some ways the NCAA has a heavier emphasis on safety and sportsmanship with leading the way on targeting fouls being automatic ejections, all personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls being automatic first downs, and UNS fouls during the play being enforced as live ball fouls. There are also fewer instances where a team must decline a personal foul in order to keep the ball or the result of the play.
Fed is simpler but I don't think necessarily better.
One of the reasons I wouldn't want to go to the NCAA code.
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Considering what the rest of us have just witnessed in Texas
What does one thing have to do with the other?
If Texas went Fed, for whatever reason, 25% of the football officials in Texas would quit -- at least, HS. That may be underestimating things.
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Got an email from NASO advertising "assault" insurance using the video as a marketing tool. Wonder if they got the officials permission?
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Me too. I thought that was pretty tacky.
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What does one thing have to do with the other?
If Texas went Fed, for whatever reason, 25% of the football officials in Texas would quit -- at least, HS. That may be underestimating things.
Why? And what, exactly would "quitting" accomplish?
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I don't think they would quit to "accomplish" something. They would quit rather than learn new rules and mechanics. Especially those nearing retirement anyway.
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I was trying to insert the picture to show this attachment but could not get it to work. Open the attachment and take a look. After our game last night, we returned to the locker room and this message was written on the white board.
"Officials - With the events recently that have unfortunately happened in regard to officials, we want to thank you for a great job, week in & week out. Your professionalism & hard work is not commended enough for this very important, thankless job. These Chicken fried steak Po Boys are our thanks. Sponsored by: Po Melvins Restaurant - Irving, TX."
It was the best sandwich we have ever eaten. I'm sure Irving ISD was involved as well. Our chapter is privileged to have them as a client. They treat our officials great every time. There are lots of schools that appreciate our efforts. I hope many of you can say the same thing and share a similar story.
If you find yourself in Irving...go find Po Melvins!!!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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what, exactly would "quitting" accomplish?
For one, it would reverse any decision PDQ. But it will never happen. No reason to and coaches in Texas feel the exact same way I do. Nobody is pushing for Fed.
Having Fed. rules would have had no effect on the events of last week.
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Can anyone tell me what the UIL does with incident reports that we file? I have done many of these and never heard back and some of them were pretty significant happenings. I suspect they are file 13 since it doesn't appear anything comes of them.
When an incident report is made, the chapter leadership receives a copy as do both coaches of each team. The coaches are required to respond to the report with what actions they have taken. I'm not sure who they are responding too, UIL or District, but I spoke with the coach and he told me he was requiring his players to run 40 miles before they could play again and he put that in his report. I suspect that if the coaches disciplinary actions are not severe enough then either the UIL or District could take action.
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What is in the water in San Antonio?
Another player shoved a ref down there today.
A private school player from San Antonio shoved an official during Saturday's 21-0 loss against Austin Hyde Park - the second such incident in just over a week at a Texas high school football game.
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It's not San Antonio it's a generation encouraged to challenge authority.
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Here is the new one Mogul referenced ,
http://deadspin.com/another-texas-high-school-football-player-hits-ref-1730352501
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It's not San Antonio it's a generation encouraged to challenge authority.
Billy, I am afraid you may be correct!
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Unbelievable. And the announcers blamed the officials.
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With the lack of a decisive decision coming earlier in the week, we couldn't see this coming? The attempt to sweep the attack under the carpet and hope everyone will forget and move on is just adding fuel to a bad situation. This type of behavior will continue until the initial attack is resolved.
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With the lack of a decisive decision coming earlier in the week, we couldn't see this coming? The attempt to sweep the attack under the carpet and hope everyone will forget and move on is just adding fuel to a bad situation. This type of behavior will continue until the initial attack is resolved.
That may factor in but....
The police were there, came on to the field. Why was little Johhny not taken away in cuffs, they saw an assault.
That might calm some things down
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That may factor in but....
The police were there, came on to the field. Why was little Johhny not taken away in cuffs, they saw an assault.
That might calm some things down
Maybe the police are afraid of Texas football coaches "blackballing" them from comfy assignments too. pi1eOn
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That may factor in but....
The police were there, came on to the field. Why was little Johhny not taken away in cuffs, they saw an assault.
That might calm some things down
Sorry gentlemen, but we have nobody to blame, but OURSELVES. If parents and Coaches want to let their children control them, THAT'S ON THEM. What we CHOOSE to accept is 100% ON US. When we allow "little Johnny to mouth off to us, this is the ultimate end result of that path.
Did any crew member GO TO THE POLICE ON HAND AND REGISTER AN ASSAULT COMPLAINT? No question leading "little Johnny" off the field in hand cuffs would get EVERYONE'S attention, and likely provoke a lot of Adult whining (which will ultimately abate - IF WE STAND OUR GROUND).
The OBJECTIVE, which for generations was clearly understood and ACCEPTED is really SIMPLE. There is NO EXCUSE, NO REASON FOR ANYONE (PLAYER, COACH SPECTATOR) to EVER LAY HANDS, or in any other way ASSAULT a game official.
Should that EVER happen, the game is OVER and someone is going to JAIL
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SA chapter mY need to refuse assignments this week to get people's attention
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The problem is that then we become the bad guys. Sad but true. Perception is everything. How do we make a point without interrupting games?
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The problem is that then we become the bad guys. Sad but true. Perception is everything. How do we make a point without interrupting games?
Do what you Texas boys have always done. Refuse to be intimidated.
Go out there. Make the calls that need making. Toss the kids that need tossing.
And this unwritten rule about not flagging coaches? No Mas. Player behavior starts with them.
We're all behind you.
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Like your comment SD CASEY. I did a game on Friday 9-11. We had 3 Personal Fouls and 1 Unsportsmanlike Conduct fouls in the first Half. We took control of the game and didn't have anymore big fouls the rest of the game. Two 6A teams in a close game.
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Then who controls the contract with John Jay?
I was on the Board when we had an incident happen on a field. Not an attack on an official but pretty bad. We held a meeting with the school Administrator, Coach and a surprise visit from FHSAA. We were getting no where when I finally said "Let's offer this solution, we tear up the contract, end home games for the season, you play all away games and kiss your gate receipts good bye, including concessions." The loss of revenue changed the tactics immediately.
If a normal game at John Jay is 11k to12k at $5 bucks a throw that's over 55K per game. Loss of the purse hurts every program at the school. The penalty for not doing what's right. Why let the school have any control? They are a threat to the officials if they excuse this. This isn't just a possible injury on a Friday night and a magical recovery for a return to work Monday. This is life threatening. Frankly, I could care less if little Johnny gets his feelings hurt. He shouldn't be a thug, plus Mom and Dad needs to shoulder some of the blame. As a Kid, the school wouldn't have been my concern ....my Mom and Dad would be my concern. Military Brat ....different world. I feared Mom and Dad far more than any teacher, coach or Principal. She's 85 now and I still have that fear and respect as I did at 17. Still convinced she could take me two out of three falls.
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My wife once told my oldest (who is now 40) that he may be bigger, but she was still his mother and could kick his rear anytime she wanted, even if it meant standing on a chair. Short of a partying incident that included a trip to juvenile court when he was 16, we've never has a problem with how he acts. His kids are the same way. 14 and 10 and everything is "Yes sir" and "No sir", "Please" and "Thank You." Proof that apples don't fall far from the tree.
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I'd be surprised if Jay averages more than 3,000 to 3,500 per game. According to UIL rules, if a chapter works a school's scrimmage and is paid for it, they are obligated to cover all of their varsity and maybe even sub varsity contests. We cannot tell a school we refuse to cover their games if we worked their scrimmages. Things work here in Texas a lot differently than other states.
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I'd be surprised if Jay averages more than 3,000 to 3,500 per game. According to UIL rules, if a chapter works a school's scrimmage and is paid for it, they are obligated to cover all of their varsity and maybe even sub varsity contests. We cannot tell a school we refuse to cover their games if we worked their scrimmages. Things work here in Texas a lot differently than other states.
Of course all the members of the chapter can scratch the school and then they would not be able to assign anyone.
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I'd be surprised if Jay averages more than 3,000 to 3,500 per game. According to UIL rules, if a chapter works a school's scrimmage and is paid for it, they are obligated to cover all of their varsity and maybe even sub varsity contests. We cannot tell a school we refuse to cover their games if we worked their scrimmages. Things work here in Texas a lot differently than other states.
I hadn't heard that.
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I hadn't heard that.
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Per UIL
Chapters that agree to provide officials and charge for scrimmages are under obligation to provide officials for the school for the entire season, grades 7-12.
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Per UIL
Chapters that agree to provide officials and charge for scrimmages are under obligation to provide officials for the school for the entire season, grades 7-12.
Easy solution. Give them their $100 bucks for the scrimmage back, and remove the obligation.
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Per UIL
Chapters that agree to provide officials and charge for scrimmages are under obligation to provide officials for the school for the entire season, grades 7-12.
Easy to overcome when the school fails to satisfactorily provide for the safety of the officials by not addressing the issue at hand. Until John Jay permanently removes these two from all UIL competition FOREVER, then I wouldn't do any of their games.
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Easy to overcome when the school fails to satisfactorily provide for the safety of the officials by not addressing the issue at hand. Until John Jay permanently removes these two from all UIL competition FOREVER, then I wouldn't do any of their games.
They have both been removed from the school. Handles it while the investigation and final decisions are made. I agree that the Sophmore should not be allowed to play any HS sport again -- but I would not boycott their games if he is allowed to play again next year. But that is just me.
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Time to move umpires into the offensive backfield, like tomorrow.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/b4pPnoO1QDd1C/giphy.gif)
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The 2 Jay players are scheduled ot be interviewed on Good Morning America in the AM
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The 2 Jay players are scheduled ot be interviewed on Good Morning America in the AM
Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous!
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Really is baffling Can't imagine how their lawyers would allow it
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http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/football-jay-players-who-tackled-ref-to-appear-on-good-morning-america/
I don't know what to say about this. We need to do a sickout.
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Yeah, let's reward them with more publicity. Just what we needed and still no answers.
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This is ridiculous! It appears some one is going to have to do something since TASO is still not make a public statement.
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What is gonna come from this? The pore mistreated urchins gonna tell how they were soooo mistreated, their self esteem just absolutely crushed, they were misunderstood, their actions completely justified, and that mean ole SON OF A GUN in the striped shirt deserved it, the coach said so.
Somebody is thinking this is gonna help, I don't much think so
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Nice to see the players are getting to control the narrative.
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Baffling but mitigation can be the only answer.
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Just saw the interview. Interesting that they seemed to blame the coach for putting the hit on the official.
Of course they said they heard 2 racial comments (one on what language the players should be speaking since they are in America and the other using the n word).
I understand staying silent from the official's side and all the groups that are with the official...but unfortunately, in this day and age...if you don't jump out and get ahead of something and get your story out there first from your own mouth...you very well may end up on the crap end of the stick.
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http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/football-players-blindsided-ref-coachs-orders/story?id=33855782
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“They apologized, they’re sorry. They didn’t mean to do this,”
Just what did they mean to do? Give me a break!
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If this is the future of HS football, I am glad I hung em up!
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http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/football-players-blindsided-ref-coachs-orders/story?id=33855782
The coach told me to do it. Garbage is the nicest word I can use. They should have thought about that before acting like idiots. If they are the great kids they think they are, at a minimum they could have told the coach "No, that's not right and we're not going to do it."
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https://gma.yahoo.com/football-players-blindsided-ref-were-following-coachs-orders-121135389--abc-news-topstories.html
For your viewing pleasure
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Reading the Replies in the article... It looks like 98% of them think the kids are thugs and should be kicked off of the team. There were 1400+ comments so it is good to see it is not a slanted point of view of just us old refs.
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I assume the complaint that the school district is filing is a CYA move in case Mr. Watts sues?
The kids apologized, they're sorry. they didn't mean to do it"
Well, since they apologized, then that's enough. Except they didn't. They said they'd "like to apologize", it may be a sematic difference, but there is a difference. I'd like to win the lottery, but it doesn't mean I did.
But even if they did apologize, so what?
They didn't mean to do it? What, exactly DID they mean to do?
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Ah -- the William Calley defense.
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Their actions speak volumes about their character regardless of who said what, the coach or the official, they cannot be believed now. The whole "if you prosecute these kids their lives will forever be ruined" defense sends the wrong message to every young person having to make a decision about right and wrong. If I choose poorly, no big deal since I'm young and everyone will come to my defense because punishing me will ruin my life. Mr Watts needs to be very aggressively pursuing criminal charges and TASO better be helping.
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Mr Watts needs to be very aggressively pursuing criminal charges and TASO better be helping.
I know they released a statement, but what is NASO doing on the issue? They should be coming to the official's defense.
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Of course they said they heard 2 racial comments (one on what language the players should be speaking since they are in America and the other using the n word).
I wish I could say I've never heard a brother in stripes do either.
Sadly, I can't, for either utterance.
That said, this is assault, and makes me glad I've switched to soccer.
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I wish I could say I've never heard a brother in stripes do either.
Sadly, I can't, for either utterance.
That said, this is assault, and makes me glad I've switched to soccer.
It's not better in soccer. We've had two soccer referees killed by players while refereeing in the last three years here in the United States.
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This story is more unbelievable than ever. Your mad at the Referee so you hit the umpire how apparently hadn't done anything . I call Bull
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I know they released a statement, but what is NASO doing on the issue? They should be coming to the official's defense.
Whose attorney do you think is representing Watts? It aint the local Austin crowd.
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Whose attorney do you think is representing Watts?
:thumbup
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This is my 28th year on the field at various levels and I have never heard an official use a racial epithet towards a student athlete.
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I would like to know why my post was removed. It was not racial and the language was clean and othing offensive was said oh well the power of the censors
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Agree Bolt, I've been at this 22 and I've never heard an official utter a slur. We aren't the most diverse population here in WNC but there are minority groups of some amount. In fact, I am noting quite an increase in Hispanic players at all levels here.
This is all CYA lawyer moves now. I knew their attorneys plan would be to blame the coach. The "you can't ruin these young men's future" is also from the playbook. Delaying tactics to get it out of the news and hope the victim tires of court trips and interviews and depositions will also be used.
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http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13721638/john-jay-assistant-mack-breed-admitted-ordering-players-hit-referee-response-alleged-racist-comments-bad-calls
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Wait and see, the two fine young men have received all the punishment they will get. To quote TexDoc, "HORSE HOCKEY"!!!!!!!!
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"Mr. Breed at one point during our conversation stated that he should have handled the referee himself"
I don't think so. An assistant does not deal with officials in a varsity game. That's the job of the head coach. Personally, I will not speak to an assistant unless the head coach is present and is okay with it. And, you always have a second official there as a witness. If the assistant is yelling and just communicating one way, I walk away.
Mr. Breed should have gone to the head coach if there truly was a problem with racial comments, which most of us really believe there was not. The head coach certainly has some culpability in this mess since he is ultimately charged with running his team and coaches. Although I really like the guy, I'm afraid he's going to have to go.
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Well done, coach. You got yourself fired, possibly criminally charged, and two kids kicked off the team. Great role model.
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Well done, coach. You got yourself fired, possibly criminally charged, and two kids kicked off the team. Great role model.
No, the kids got themselves kicked off the team.
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"Mr. Breed at one point during our conversation stated that he should have handled the referee himself"
I don't think so. An assistant does not deal with officials in a varsity game. That's the job of the head coach. Personally, I will not speak to an assistant unless the head coach is present and is okay with it. And, you always have a second official there as a witness. If the assistant is yelling and just communicating one way, I walk away.
Mr. Breed should have gone to the head coach if there truly was a problem with racial comments, which most of us really believe there was not. The head coach certainly has some culpability in this mess since he is ultimately charged with running his team and coaches. Although I really like the guy, I'm afraid he's going to have to go.
I don't think he meant verbally handling it. :!#
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Go figure
Jay assistant coach recants statement that he ordered players to hit ref
The Jay High School assistant football coach who admitted he told some of his players to go after a game official before two Mustangs defensive backs attacked umpire Robert Watts in a game against Marble Falls on Sept. 4 has recanted his prior statement about the incident, two sources have told Kens5.com.
Both sources are familiar with the Northside ISD’s investigation into the incident, but requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. Both sources have read Breed’s second statement.
In his second statement, secondary coach Mack Breed wrote that he took the blame in the incident to protect the two players from being expelled from school, one of the sources said. But Breed denied that he told the players to go after Watts.
ESPN reported earlier Wednesday Breed admitted his complicity in the incident to Jay principal Robert Harris in a meeting on Sept. 5, saying he “directed the students to make the referee pay for his racial comments and calls.”
Harris’ signed statement on his interaction with Breed and Jay head football coach Gary Gutierrez following the incident is part of the NISD’s investigation into the matter.
But Breed later retracted his original statement, denying he told the players to go after Watts, the two sources confirmed to Kens5.com. Breed’s signed second statement is included in the report the NISD sent to the UIL. The players have said Breed told them to go after Watts.
Breed tells a different story in his second statement.
“I wrote a statement on Sept. 5 about an incident that occurred on Sept. 4,” Breed wrote in his second statement. “This statement is written to explain why the previous statement was not entirely true.
“I never told anyone to hurt or target anyone on Sept. 4. To understand that statement, you must know who I am. I’m 29 years old and have been coaching for six years. My job in working with these kids means the world to me. I don’t have any children, so they are my own sons. I would take a bullet for my kids if I had to.
“That being said, that is what I did Friday night after the game,” Breed wrote. “Me and my head coach (Gutierrez) were sitting across from each other on the bus, so we started talking about the events that took place. Throughout the conversation, I started to realize how serious it could be for the boys at that point, so I took the blame for them.
“I did that hoping the kids would still be able to play and not get expelled from school,” Breed wrote. “The following day, we were watching film as a staff and I was called into the principal’s office to write a statement about what I told the head coach on the bus. Again, I did this thinking the kids would be let off the hook and that everything would be fine.
KENS 5
UIL hearing could reveal sanctions for Jay football ref attack
“Now that I have seen the video and see how they hit the referee, I can no longer take the blame for the incident,” Breed wrote. “I never told these players to hurt or injure anyone in that football game. I only made my earlier statement to try and save the boys from being kicked off the team. I wanted more time to teach them discipline and character they need.
“I didn’t realize the statement made on Saturday was going to be forwarded to district office. I assumed it was going to be used to help save the kids. Now that I’m giving a formal statement, I want to be honest about the situation that occurred on Friday night.
“If the coach would have told me to write a statement on what happened at the game, I would have wrote one similar to this one,” Breed wrote. “Instead, when I wrote a statement about what I told him (Gutierrez) I wrote a false statement based on our conversation from the night before in an effort to protect the kids. That is why the statement from Sept. 5 is so vague.”
The UIL State Executive Committee is meeting Thursday in Round Rock to discuss the incident, and could take action in the matter if it has enough information and evidence to do so.
NISD officials did not know whether Breed, 29, and the two players will attend the meeting.
Breed was placed on paid administrative leave pending an NISD investigation after the incident. A 2004 Jay graduate, he has coached at his alma mater since 2011.
The two players have been assigned to the NISD alternative high school for 75 days and can return to class at Jay starting Jan. 15, their attorney said Wednesday. They were suspended from school after the incident.
The University Interscholastic League is the governing body for extracurricular activities for the state’s public schools and a handful of private and charter schools.
Several Jay players have alleged Watts directed racial slurs toward black and Hispanic members of the team during the game, according to the NISD’s investigation. Watts’ attorney, Alan Goldberger, has denied the allegations.
While Breed now denies he told the players to target Watts, there is evidence corroborating the statements by the players that the coach directed them to go after the official, one of the sources said.
“There were numerous kids that said ‘Coach Breed told us we’ve got to make that guy pay. He’s been cheating us all night long,’” the source said. “Now did he say, ‘Go hit the referee in the back?’ Did he say, ‘Injure the guy?’ Did he say, ‘You hit him first and then you spear him second?’ I don’t think Mack Breed said that. Nobody ever said the coach told them to hit him from the back and hurt him.”
The same source said other players told NISD investigators they weren’t certain if the directive to take out Watts came from Breed or a player.
Breed could be suspended for a maximum of three years if the State Committee Executive rules that he influenced the players to target the official. Breed will be prohibited from coaching at a UIL school until he goes before the State Executive Committee.
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Coach just recanted.
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I must admit, I had doubts that the Coach told the kids to "hit the ref", but the idea that he said the official was "cheating" his team set the tone. The kids may have taken it from there. When the adults demonstrate total disregard and respect of game officials, the athletes will follow their lead.
I believe most coaches expect their team members to respect coaches, officials and the other team. Their actions and attitudes often send the opposite message. In other words, they should lead by example, not do as I say, not as I do. Lets see how the UIL weighs in on this today.
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Coach just recanted.
http://www.kens5.com/story/sports/high-school/2015/09/24/jay-assistant-coach-recants-statement-he-ordered-players-hit-ref/72729864/ (http://www.kens5.com/story/sports/high-school/2015/09/24/jay-assistant-coach-recants-statement-he-ordered-players-hit-ref/72729864/)
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The coach that told the kids to take out the ref has taken back his story and has now resigned from the school district. He will not be at UIL meeting today.
http://usatodayhss.com/2015/john-jay-assistant-coach-reportedly-recants-that-he-told-players-to-hit-ref
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Lawyer move
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The UIL hearing is being streamed live:
http://www.ksat.com/live/watch-live-uil-hearing-on-jay-jay-players
Mike Wise is talking now.
The UIL's attitude in these proceedings is one that wants to pin any and everything against the officials and make them take a share of the responsibility in what happens here. Please name another place in education where they would go to such lengths to blame the victim for being assaulted? They sure wouldn't with a teacher, I guarantee that.
They're also showing their complete ignorance about how officiating works.
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TASO just finished talking. Good job, gentlemen.
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And the final wrap up was essentially:
To the school and head coach - we know this isn't your culture and we understand. Thank you.
To TASO - You did a thorough job. Now go investigate some more before you report back to us.
Watching this did no favors to my blood pressure today.
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If this happened in a classroom or a cafeteria or anywhere on schools grounds to a coach, administrator, janitor or anyone associated and working for the school, those kids would have been arrested that day! They would have been expelled from school and would never be allowed back.
WHY would this be any different?
Coaches MUST stop being the kid's friends and trying to defend them! The kids are learning nothing from this. This is the same attitude parents take when their kids get in trouble in school now. The parents defend their kids regards of how bad they have acted. I'm my day, your parents came and picked you up, took you home, and beat your rear!
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Go figure
Jay assistant coach recants statement that he ordered players to hit ref
From the news article:
Breed could be suspended for a maximum of three years if the State Committee Executive rules that he influenced the players to target the official. Breed will be prohibited from coaching at a UIL school until he goes before the State Executive Committee.
Is this right? If a coach ordered a player to target an official, his maximum punishment is 3 years suspension?
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Is there any way to get the transcript from todays UIL hearing? I couldn't watch on my work PC.
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Is this right? If a coach ordered a player to target an official, his maximum punishment is 3 years suspension?
Even assuming its true -- who hires the guy? Probably time for a career change.
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I'm impressed that almost 50% of the respondents will either quit working games in the region or a specific organization; or they will quit officiating altogether. While I don't know the percentage of voters to available officials in the area, I applaud those of you who express the willingness to stand up to the ineffective, gutless autocrats running High School football in (at least this area of) Texas. aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd
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I'd love for the 13 to identify themselves and follow through, but neither is gonna happen....
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I'd love for the 13 to identify themselves and follow through, but neither is gonna happen....
I very seriously doubt they are SA officials. My dad coached in NISD for 15 years and my mom worked in NISD from 1962 to 1991 as an administrator. I have no plans on scratching all of NISD.
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If this happened in a classroom or a cafeteria or anywhere on schools grounds to a coach, administrator, janitor or anyone associated and working for the school, those kids would have been arrested that day! They would have been expelled from school and would never be allowed back.
WHY would this be any different?
Coaches MUST stop being the kid's friends and trying to defend them! The kids are learning nothing from this. This is the same attitude parents take when their kids get in trouble in school now. The parents defend their kids regards of how bad they have acted. I'm my day, your parents came and picked you up, took you home, and beat your rear!
Doc-- I regret to inform you that if a student assaults a teacher, custodian, or librarian, a 60-90 day alternative education placement is what would happen to the child. I wish that was not the case but I can not fault NISD for the punishment so far.
The reason the school districts give is that the students in question will perform better on their state testing in their home school then an alternative placement. Unless you bring a gun or drugs into your school you probably are not getting arrested.
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Doc-- I regret to inform you that if a student assaults a teacher, custodian, or librarian, a 60-90 day alternative education placement is what would happen to the child. I wish that was not the case but I can not fault NISD for the punishment so far.
The reason the school districts give is that the students in question will perform better on their state testing in their home school then an alternative placement. Unless you bring a gun or drugs into your school you probably are not getting arrested.
Sad.
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“Now that I have seen the video and see how they hit the referee, I can no longer take the blame for the incident,” Breed wrote. “I never told these players to hurt or injure anyone in that football game. I only made my earlier statement to try and save the boys from being kicked off the team. I wanted more time to teach them discipline and character they need.
Interesting that included in his defense for lying is that he wanted more time to teach them discipline and CHARACTER. Made me laugh.
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http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/high_school/high_school_football/article/Jay-assistant-resigns-amid-UIL-ban-6527209.php
Includes the written statement from coach's attorney.
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Some SERIOUS race card playing in that statement.
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http://www.ksat.com/news/sports-psychologist-jay-hs-coaches-players-need-to-be-taught-a-lesson
Interesting. Includes summary of past events and punishments
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Doc, in the past 5 years of teaching, I have witnessed several "assaults" at school, and every time the students involved were carted away in cuffs. In the original statement from the ISD involved, they called this an attack on a "school official". But the punishment handed down is about in line with what I have seen over the years. I still feel that the AD and head coach have to shoulder much of the blame, they are responsible for the actions of their coaches and players. My 2 cents
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Mike, I was told you were there for the hearing. I realize you probably have been asked not to talk about the case, but is there a timeline when TASO will respond? Maybe not a public statement, but at least a statement to the membership. It's frustrating for this to have happened and our organization is not keeping us informed. We're only getting what is published in the news media and what we pick up here.
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Mike, I was told you were there for the hearing. I realize you probably have been asked not to talk about the case, but is there a timeline when TASO will respond? Maybe not a public statement, but at least a statement to the membership. It's frustrating for this to have happened and our organization is not keeping us informed. We're only getting what is published in the news media and what we pick up here.
I understand everyone wanting to be "updated" or hear what TASO has to say about this, but as an attorney, everyone needs to remember that this is still a legal matter. It is not appropriate for TASO to be making comments. Defendants are under no restriction to try and get their story out -- but prosecutors rarely do. Let the Marble Falls DA have the next say -- anything TASO says at this point can merely get in the way of the DAs prosecution of the case. I mean, really, what can TASO say -- "we disagree with the actions of the coaches and players" -- well of course. "We are going to refuse to work games unless sanctions are imposed" -- again, not appropriate at this point. TASO should continue to "hold its fire" in public until the DA, NISD and the UIL have made final decisions. You also don't see Watts making comments -- all you hear are comments from his attorney denying allegations made by the players. That should be enough at this time.
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http://usatodayhss.com/2015/uil-hearing-racial-slurs-john-jay-referee-attack
Committee member Gil Garza said he was disturbed that the game official shrugged off the allegations when presented with them.
TASO said the situation was dealt with on a stoppage of play or Jay could have called timeout and brought the referee over to the sideline.
“I don’t know what you can do in the middle of a game,” Fitch said.
OMG smh
"Coach, he called me a $%#@&^%$#"
"Mr. Official, he called my player a $%#@&^%$#"
"Tweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet" "Anybody hear them call him a $%#@&^%$#"?"
"Quick, let's call a committee meeting"
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HL it was infuriating to hear it live, I can't imagine what it was like to hear in person.
He basically wanted to know why the game wasn't stopped and the allegations weren't dealt with right then and there. Assuming that the crew was even made aware of them in the first place. I thought Mike Fitch did a great job of addressing it as best as he could but you could tell he was frustrated with not only the lack of basic understanding but the unwillingness of the committee members to actually hear what was being said to them by the experts in officiating.
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Can you imagine how this would have proceeded if TASO had not filed a lawsuit to stop UIL from taking over officiating? Without any advocate in our corner this would have already been white-washed and put away.
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Can you imagine how this would have proceeded if TASO had not filed a lawsuit to stop UIL from taking over officiating? Without any advocate in our corner this would have already been white-washed and put away.
Agreed. Watts may have been banned for life by the UIL based on allegations alone -- regardless of merit. We need to stay separate.
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Mike Fitch testimony transcript
[attachment deleted by admin]
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http://usatodayhss.com/2015/john-jay-robert-watts-uil-hearing-official-hit
Includes a photo I suspect the kids and their backers are not going to like seeing of the U
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Statement of the umpire is released:
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/official-attacked-at-jay-game-releases-police-statement/ (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/hssports/2015/09/official-attacked-at-jay-game-releases-police-statement/)
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Coach has been suspended for the year with a recommendation he contact the official's association and sign up to be an official while he is out of coaching. We report...you decide
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Coach has been suspended for the year with a recommendation he contact the official's association and sign up to be an official while he is out of coaching. We report...you decide
Make him an umpire.
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Which coach?
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The assistant. He admitted saying "That MF'r needs to pay" but claimed was just talking out loud and not to a player. Also claimed not to even know what ne meant when he said it.
HC received public reprimand and probation.
The children still did not testify.
Official testified.
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From AP -- seems to resolve this for now --
Texas high school sports officials have punished two football players and coaches involved in an intentional hit on a referee, showing some leniency to a former assistant who denied allegations he ordered the players to blindside the game umpire.
Mack Breed told the University Interscholastic League that he said umpire Robert Watts "needs to pay" but was surprised when the players hit Watts. Video of the Sept. 4 incident created a national stir.
The UIL suspended Breed, who previously resigned from San Antonio Jay High School, for the rest of the school year and gave him two years' probation. He could have been suspended for three years.
Head coach Gary Guttierez was given two years' probation.
The players were suspended from sports for the rest of the school year.
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So, according to testimony, did a black player come forward to say that Watts used the "N" word? No? "Buehler never showed? So, these two, thugs, motivated by a coach to try and hurt an Official, are then motivated to go on national TV, motivated by another adult to further the lie. And all the supposed real adults can come up with is banned from sports for the rest of this year?
Sorry, but if I'm Coach Gutierez, not only does the assistant never come back, but the Sophmore never walks on a playing field with me again. The cancer has to be cut out.
File the lawsuit, ruin their miserable little lives and make it nationally known.
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Actually the evidence was that 2 players , 1 of whom is Black, did hear it directed at that player ALLEGEDLY. Keep in mind 1 of these is also 1 of the players who said the coach told them to do it. There is no evidence that he did so although he did admit to a statement that could have contributed to them doing what they did.
The sophmore's punishment is not final yet. The committee is waiting for him to appear before it so they can then take final action. He is suspended from sports until then. If he never wants to play again, he can simply never go to the committee. Another option would be to leave the public school system and start over in the private school leagues. The coach could do the same and neither would be the first to do such a thing.
Finally, the criminal case is pending so both students may face further punishment.