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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: U52 on October 12, 2015, 03:17:06 PM
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On Friday my crew had a play that I'm wondering if we got right, looking for a little help!
A had the ball on their own 10 yard line. A6 goes off right end for a 90 yard TD. On the run, A60 is flagged for a block in the back at the 50 yard line. As A6 continues to the goal line, B51 blocks A8 in the back. This happened before A6 crossed for the TD. What do I have here?
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Shouldn't matter which code, actually. Did both teams commit live ball fouls (not unsportsmanlike or non-player) during the action on a down that did not involve a change of possession? And if you're working NFHS code, what does 10-2-1a say about it?
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Looks like double fouls to me!
What did you do?
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Another question to ask is "Was B51's block in the back in an attempt to get to the runner?" I don't know if that matters in NFHS, but in NCAA that would make his block legal and could take away your offsetting fouls.
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If A were to decline the penalty on B, assuming B accepts the penalty on A, A could have the ball 1st and 10 on A40 -- a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul. If A accepts the penalty on B, and B accepts the penalty on A, we have offsetting penalties and we replay the down.
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Ok we have no change of possession. Both teams committed live ball fouls. These are double fouls. The only only to hand this is for the penalties to offset and replay the down. Rule 9-2-1
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Ok we have no change of possession. Both teams committed live ball fouls. These are double fouls. The only only to hand this is for the penalties to offset and replay the down. Rule 9-2-1
But if A were to decline the penalty on B, we'd no longer have offsetting fouls.
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The fouls offset by rule. Nobody gets the chance to decline either foul.
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But if A were to decline the penalty on B, we'd no longer have offsetting fouls.
If there is no change of possession and/or no PSK fouls, double fouls offset and the down is replayed. There is no option to decline either of the fouls.
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The fouls offset by rule. Nobody gets the chance to decline either foul.
Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.
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We replayed the down from the original Los, the 10. I didn't feel it was right , so we did get together and talk about it as a crew. All felt that A couldn't decline Bs penalty so we went with that. I just want to make sure we did get it right or more importantly get it right the next time.
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Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.
NCAA Rule 10.1.4:
ARTICLE 4. If live-ball fouls by both teams are reported to the referee, the
fouls offset and the down is repeated (A.R. 10-1-4-I and VII). Any player who
commits a foul that mandates disqualification must leave the game.
Exceptions:
1. When there is a change of team possession during a down, and the team
last gaining possession had not fouled before last gaining possession,
it may refuse offsetting fouls and thereby retain possession after
completion of the penalty for its foul (A.R. 10-1-4-II-VII).
2. When all Team B fouls are governed by postscrimmage kick rules,
Team B may refuse offsetting fouls and accept postscrimmage kick
enforcement.
3. Rules 8-3-4-c and 3-1-3-g-3 (during a try or extra period after Team B
possession).
There is no option to decline half of a double foul unless there was a change of possession or PSK enforcement.
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Is that a Fed rule, because under NCAA, either team my decline a penalty. There is no reason that they would -- and when both are accepted, all accepted lives balls fouls by Teams A and B will offset.
It may be a very technical point but I don't think either team automatically has the right to decline a penalty. If there are offsetting fouls, they are offsetting unless one of the 3 listed exceptions apply (NCAA)
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I'm not sure how horse hockey got into my last post? Sorry about that!
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I'm not sure how horse hockey got into my last post? Sorry about that!
It's a filter that catches the word for male bovine excrement. Unfortunately, it also catches a possessive form of B (as in, "the penalty belonging to B") that is also a two letter abbreviation for the same.
I wouldn't be surprised if something in this post gets filtered as well.
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It's a filter that catches the word for male bovine excrement. Unfortunately, it also catches a possessive form of B (as in, "the penalty belonging to B") that is also a two letter abbreviation for the same.
I wouldn't be surprised if something in this post gets filtered as well.
That filter is HORSE HOCKEY.
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I have always heard Rogers say that any penalty may be declined.
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I have always heard Rogers say that any penalty may be declined.
A foul is a violation of the rules for which there can be a penalty enforced. If there is a double foul, the fouls offset and the down is replayed. There are no penalties to be enforced or declined.
Otherwise, yes, any penalty can be declined.
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I see why you questioned it tho. If B does not foul it is a first down, so B had to commit a live ball foul in order for the ball to go back to where it was. Interesting.
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OK -- I stand corrected on that. I'm continually amazed at the things I learn on this site.
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In NCAA you could invoke the Unfair Acts rule and enforce both penalties in succession, if you are absolutely certain that B fouled only to gain an unfair advantage.
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NFHS = double fouls, no choice = replay the down.
Rarely do double fouls have happy endings.
Hump day trivia : Same OP BUT B's BIB occurred AFTER A had crossed the goal line.....
YOU MAKE THE CALL...
CUBBIES, REMEMBER SOX '04 - 4 IN A ROW CAN HAPPEN!!!!
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NFHS = double fouls, no choice = replay the down.
Rarely do double fouls have happy endings.
Hump day trivia : Same OP BUT B's BIB occurred AFTER A had crossed the goal line.....
YOU MAKE THE CALL...
Unless the contact by B was severe enough to warrant being a PF, enfprce A's foul under all but one, and start the clock on the snap. If B has earned a personal foul, enforce A's foul under all but one, then mark off 15 yards on B, and then start the clock on the snap.
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Congrats , VALJ, you win the aWaRd Kewpie doll. You can't have a dead ball block in the back, holding, helping the runner, incidental face mask, etc. If you felt any of these rose to a level of a personal foul, you could rule that, and that would create a DB foul with proper enforcement.
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Situations like these are why I feel clean hands should be available to Team A *before* a change of possession.
Take the same play, but imagine that A fumbled to B and B fumbled to A, and THEN the long run happened with two deep downfield fouls. If A gets to invoke clean hands and preserve (most of) that long run, what is the rationale or justification for not giving them that same opportunity all the time?