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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: OldGuy on November 06, 2015, 09:35:56 AM
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Being the old guy who's legs have let him down and I can't run any more , I have to get my Friday night fix by just finding a game to go watch. I have noticed something this fall here in Texas and was wondering what the reason was for and the TASO requirements. As I've travelled around I've seen some crews using radios with headsets during the games. Most of these were as I traveled north of Salado. I'm guessing they are being used to help speed up crew communications. Being out of the loop now, did TASO send out any recommendations on this?
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The use of the communication device is at the discretion of the crew. However, any unit that is used must be TASO approved.
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Just to better understand what is required to get approval from TASO? Are only certain units allowed? Just kind of curious how expensive this would be as I know the UIL has never made any TX officials rich.
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We started using them this year. The least expensive fully duplex, encrypted unit available was about $1800 for 7 units. You can get cheaper ones that comply with TASO rules (not much cheaper mind you) but they are not duplex radios, rather old style PTT with only one person talking at a time. If you go to the taso website you can download the application that shows the details and requirements.
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You may want to explain full duplex. My ham radio license might prove to be useful in officiating yet!
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In a full duplex system, officials can communicate with each other simultaneously. An example of full-duplex is a phone. Each person on the phone call can speak and be heard by the other callers simultaneously.
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Good job! Full duplex as opposed to duplex, which is two way but not simultaneous, or simplex, which is the mode coaches are usually in, one way communication.
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Was there really any benefit Brad? From games I've seen in all levels there is still the need for an official to come talk to the R or another official about a call. There may be some trial and error still but what were the benefits gained? Thank you.
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Seven units at full duplex? Really? So all units actually receive six channels simultaneously and mix the incoming signals? I would think that without a base station you could only get duplex in the sense that one (primary) unit can talk and listen at the same time with one other unit.
Which system are you using? We are considering getting one or two sets here in Finland.
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Which system are you using? We are considering getting one or two sets here in Finland.
I'll message you privately with info on what we are doing in the UK. Our sets are £10-16 per handset (including charger, headset etc)
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X, you initially fight the urge come to the R but our crew has gotten pretty good at just broadcasting the foul. I had a OH a few weeks ago and I was probably 30 yards from my R. Before I had even turned toward him I told him over the radio foul and offenders number.
It is also useful to communicate other information amongst crew members ie "tell right guard to get up to the line, or tell DT he's close to being offside. " Last week after a PAT as I ran to my FK position HC wanted an explanation on a DPI. I got on the horn and got the details from my B and relayed to HC. All in about 30 seconds.
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Kale, it's called the Yapalong 4000 (stupid name I know).
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Seven units at full duplex? Really? So all units actually receive six channels simultaneously and mix the incoming signals? I would think that without a base station you could only get duplex in the sense that one (primary) unit can talk and listen at the same time with one other unit.
Forget this, I'm so analog that I always forget the benefits of digital radio.
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Kale, it's called the Yapalong 4000 (stupid name I know).
I googled these, and on Amazon, it says "No Push to talk required".
Is there an option to set push-to-talk? Not sure I'd want an always open channel to hear both coaches in the ear of my wings.
http://www.amazon.com/Yapalong-4000-Duplex-Radio-Units/dp/B00U6GGSXG (http://www.amazon.com/Yapalong-4000-Duplex-Radio-Units/dp/B00U6GGSXG)
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The price of the individual units should drop dramatically on these within the next year or two. I expect you can get a crew of 5 a duplex set with PTT or vox (not full-duplex) for about 350 to 400 very soon. If there was not an encryption requirement, they set would cost less around $200.
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This has been the best price I've been able to find so far that meets TASO requirements. The number of radios you can add is unlimited.
http://www.theavspot.com/eartec-sstsc5000lp?gclid=CjwKEAiA64uyBRCVmKyT2vuAjzgSJADfINB6P6ZBgPeaA_k18MmtO-xA9uplTPbxG_4hK26yn4LBwBoCsEHw_wcB (http://www.theavspot.com/eartec-sstsc5000lp?gclid=CjwKEAiA64uyBRCVmKyT2vuAjzgSJADfINB6P6ZBgPeaA_k18MmtO-xA9uplTPbxG_4hK26yn4LBwBoCsEHw_wcB)
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deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:
Beating the horse to death, but here is a Chinese made version of a scrambled radio. Around $35 for a set. You can get 6 radios (3 sets) for <$150. These do not include head sets, but those can be purchased separately. If they break, you throw them away and get new ones.
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Kalle they have PTT headsets also. We started with open mic because that's what they shipped us. After two games we got PTT models.
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Doc we've found the lapel mics don't work well. We're now using boom Mics.
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Boom mikes aren't to expensive. You didn't like the earpieces? The PTT is on the lapel clip, right?
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On this iteration it is. The ones we also have (lapel) mike had the ptt that clips on the belt. I prefer the acoustatube ear piece on the lapel version but better voice pickup with he boom. Ptt on the boom sits under the shirt about upper chest. It's really easy to use there surprising to me.
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Doc, what are the Chinese radios you reference?
Also, I want to discuss a stadium mic issue. Should I start another thread?
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They meet the TASO requirements. They cost $28 each, shipping from Hong Kong. I'm going to order some and check them out.
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So you're telling me that for $28 they meet the following specs?
Must operate in the unlicensed 915-928 MHz frequency spectrum. This band requires
no FCC licensing.
2.4 GHz frequency hopping spread spectrum. Reduces interference and allows
encryption, eliminating the ability of others to listen.
Requires NO frequency coordination. The system will automatically select open
frequencies for use, eliminating the need to coordinate frequency use with coaches,
stadium personnel or others using similar devices in the area.
Private/secure digital transmission. Provides secure communication and conversation
within the system
Full duplex operation. Allows simultaneous phone-like conversation between
participants.
Completely self contained and portable. Eliminates the need for a base station and the
opportunity for others to listen to conversations.
Maximum operating range up to 600 yards or less than ½ mile.
Push to talk operation only. Allows more focus by officials without the distraction of
open microphones.
Water resistant.
Noise cancelling microphone & headset. Eliminates background noise from the crowd
and bands, allowing for clear communication among the crew.
Sorry, but even the Chinese can't do that.
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Might be in a different band, but these are encrypted and meet the other requirements. No frequency coordination or licensing is required. Yes, for $28. They are highly integrated so the cost is very low. Several chips have all of the required circuitry and programming so the cost can be very low.
What you guys bought for a very high price can be made in China for a mere fraction of the cost, and I expect that to happen soon.
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If it's in a different band then it doesn't qualify right? What am I missing. Ps I'm pretty sure ours came from China too. Doesn't everything?
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They meet the TASO requirements. They cost $28 each, shipping from Hong Kong. I'm going to order some and check them out.
Are you opposed to providing your supplier? (in thread or PM)?
My wife's college roommate lives in HK and I'd love to get my hands on something I could use within TX regs and lower entry level price point....for $28 each, I might even buy 4 of them out of my own pocket to use with the hodgepodge sub-varsity crews.
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If it's in a different band then it doesn't qualify right? What am I missing. Ps I'm pretty sure ours came from China too. Doesn't everything?
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I need to read the full requirements. Band does not matter as long as it does not have to be licensed. Why would TASO even care about that. Also, how would anyone at TASO even know what that really means? I doubt it.
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Must operate in the unlicensed 915-928 MHz frequency spectrum. This band requires
no FCC licensing.
2.4 GHz frequency hopping spread spectrum. Reduces interference and allows
encryption, eliminating the ability of others to listen.
The only difference in this radio is the band. This does operate in the 433.05-434.79 LIPD class band with matches the other bands above, so it should not be an issue for this application.
From the FCC:
The LIPD Class License authorises the use of several frequency ranges ... 433.05434.79 MHz; 915928 MHz; 2.42.4835 GHz
The TASO notice contradicts itself. It says: Must operate in the unlicensed 915-928 MHz frequency spectrum
Then it says: 2.4 GHz frequency hopping spread spectrum.
So, which is it? Use 900MHz band or the 2.4 GHz band? The 400MHz band I listed is the same application. I have a feeling someone is pulling someone's chain with this and not wanting less expensive alternatives used.
http://cnyanton.en.made-in-china.com/product/fStmWwBPZiVv/China-Scramble-Radio-Transceiver-YANTON-T-258-.html (http://cnyanton.en.made-in-china.com/product/fStmWwBPZiVv/China-Scramble-Radio-Transceiver-YANTON-T-258-.html)
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Price Valid Time:
From Feb 12, 2015 To May 12, 2015
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Got email from them yesterday with $28 as price. If TASO won't accept them, no use bothering with it.
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Got email from them yesterday with $28 as price. If TASO won't accept them, no use bothering with it.
Please keep us apprised on if TASO will accept them. Though I'm no longer in Texas, a price point of this with all of the security features would be of great interest to our local association I'm sure.
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Doc, these don't appear to be full duplex and they exceed the range specification of 600 yards. I'd recommend sending in the form and see what they say. The other full duplex radios available are significantly more expensive than ours were. The one the major conferences use cost $7K. I just don't see how you can attain full duplex and auto freq selection (another requirement) for $28.
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They have to be just duplex, not full duplex. I will get a spec sheet from the manufacturer. I've also asked if they make a 900MHz or 2.4GHz set.
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Doc: Beofung (sp??) sells a large number of radios on Amazon. Some are Ham radios but others might what we want or close. Can you give me a search term to look for what SHOULD work for TASO? There are so many requirements that I don't know where to start. Given you apparent knowledge shown here, I trust that you can at least push me in the right direction.
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Doc: Beofung (sp??) sells a large number of radios on Amazon. Some are Ham radios but others might what we want or close. Can you give me a search term to look for what SHOULD work for TASO? There are so many requirements that I don't know where to start. Given you apparent knowledge shown here, I trust that you can at least push me in the right direction.
I own 4 Baofeng HT radios and they work very well and are very nexpensive. I don't think they make one in the 900MHz band.
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If you look at the TASO site you can see the ones previously approved. There are only 3 or 4 and I suspect that's because of the various requirements. None are what id call cheap.
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There are radios that fully meet the specs that are less expensive. They are not exclusively for officiating but they are made for teams of people to communicate.
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It would be helpful to tell us which ones they are. Will drive the cost down. I know we looked for weeks trying to find the cheapest option.
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Working with Chinese suppliers directly, but I'm having trouble getting them to understand what I need. The spread-spectrum requirement makes these very expensive and is really not necessary at the high school level. UHF band would work just fine, IMHO.
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Just bought 4 Trisquare TXS300 radios used off of ebay for $150. These fully meet the TASO specs. They are 900MHz spread-spectrum (frequency hopping) and scrambled. This company has gone out of business, but you can still find a lot of their radios new and used on the net.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXtreme_Radio_Service (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXtreme_Radio_Service)
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Just bought 3 more at $35 each. Not bad for a 7 radio set. Need head sets and extra batteries but much cheaper route than new set.
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Just checked and power is just about identical to the officiating sets we've all been talking about. This could be a very cheap alternative. I'll let everyone know how they work out. Function wise, they do a heck of a lot more things we probably don't need, but really cool stuff. Could be good for hunting in a place with no cell service since you can sent texts on these.
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Just bought 4 Trisquare TXS300 radios used off of ebay for $150. These fully meet the TASO specs. They are 900MHz spread-spectrum (frequency hopping) and scrambled. This company has gone out of business, but you can still find a lot of their radios new and used on the on the net. Power may be a little more than required but that's what attenuators are for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXtreme_Radio_Service (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXtreme_Radio_Service)
Just bought 3 more at $35 each. Not bad for a 7 radio set. Need head sets and extra batteries but much cheaper route than new set.
Trisquare Batteries:
http://www.onesourcebattery.com/trisquare-tsx300-frs-two-way-radio-battery/?gclid=CLr0zdOhnckCFYc8gQod7vMBjw
http://www.battery2batteries.com/trisquare-tsx300-battery/?gclid=CPfg4-yhnckCFUo6gQod_XcOVQ
Those seem to be best prices, but shipping is a little steep
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Sears (of all places) seems to still have them
http://www.sears.com/trisquare-exrs-advanced-digital-2-way-radio/p-SPM6153248701
Issue I saw on ebay, was that stuff was very piecemeal...no batteries, no headsets, no chargers, just the unit itself...Sears is a bit more than ebay, but appear to be sold as new @ $59.98 each.
Doc,
Can you confirm that TASO approved the trisquare TXS300 models?
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Look for batteries on ebay. Very cheap. They also can use 3 AA batteries. Got mine on ebay, free shipping for all 7 units.
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Sears (of all places) seems to still have them...a bit more than ebay, but appear to be sold as new. $59.98 each.
http://www.sears.com/trisquare-exrs-advanced-digital-2-way-radio/p-SPM6153248701
Doc,
Can you confirm that TASO approved the trisquare TXS300 models?
You might want to check and see if those are still available at Sears since the company has gone out of business. They may not have any more.
TASO does not approve the make and model of radio. They say what is acceptable and these meet those specifications.
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You might want to check and see if those are still available at Sears since the company has gone out of business. They may not have any more.
I was thinking it was more likely that an old-discontinued radio was exactly the kind of thing that Sears would have boxes of in a warehouse someplace....nothing theyd take up shelf space with, but something theyd post online until some random person looking for an obscure and impossible set of specs might stumble across.
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TexDoc = Coal into Diamonds
Lets un know how they work out
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Pittman, more like coal into more coal.
Looks like Sears still has these available for less than $60 each, new.
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Actually the do approve the make and model. You have to fill out the form that includes make and model and send it in for approval. The are the arbiter of what is compliant, not us.
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Already sent. TASO does not dictate the make and model. They approve or disapprove based upon the specifications from what I can tell. The form doesn't make any sense though. I think it will have to be redone.
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Already sent. TASO does not dictate the make and model. They approve or disapprove based upon the specifications from what I can tell. They form doesn't make any sense though. I think I will have to be redone.
A governing body....that publishes policy....not making sense?!?!?! You sure??? :sTiR:
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Doc, I suggest you get ahold of Fitch and inform him on these things. I don't think the board has much of an idea about the tech involved here.
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I submitted a crew request for approval to TASO. I see absolutely no reason why they should not be approved. This could be a very inexpensive alternative for a lot of officials. I will test them out by next week and reply back here. Too bad we probably won't get a chance to try them in a game till next season.
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I submitted a crew request for approval to TASO. I see absolutely no reason why they should not be approved. This could be a very inexpensive alternative for a lot of officials. I will test them out by next week and reply back here. Too bad we probably won't get a chance to try them in a game till next season.
Thanks for your due diligence in vetting this issue out. Having an affordable radio option will entice more crews to move to this technology enabling them to perform better on the field.
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TxSkyBolt,
There are a couple of issues with the system you guys use that make the system fall outside of TASO guidelines. I'm not sure if you were aware of these.
1. TASO stipulates that the system cannot operate more than 600 yards, point to point, or 1,800 feet. The system you guys have is rated up to 900 meters, or just under 3,000 feet.
2. The system you guys have operates in the 900MHz band. The problem with the TASO request form is that is says it has to operate in the 900MHz band AND it has to be 2.4GHz spread spectrum. That's impossible. The systems operate in either the 900MHz band OR the 2.4GHz band. So, by definition of TASO's requirements, not one single unit in use by a TASO crew today passes this test. It is akin to saying you have to drive a Ford and it must be a Chevy as well.
My point is, TASO needs to go back to the drawing board and get some experts involved in defining what should and should not be allowed. They clearly have some issues understanding this technology.
One last point. The requirement that the system have PTT (push to talk) completely defeats the purpose of requiring that they have full-duplex. Really, what's the use of having full-duplex if you're having to push a button to talk? PTT essentially takes a full-duplex system to duplex (non phone-like with two people talking at once). If you aren't using VOX, and requiring the use of PTT, the requirement to be full-duplex just became moot.
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One last point. The requirement that the system have PTT (push to talk) completely defeats the purpose of requiring that they have full-duplex. Really, what's the use of having full-duplex if you're having to push a button to talk? PTT essentially takes a full-duplex system to duplex (non phone-like with two people talking at once). If you aren't using VOX, and requiring the use of PTT, the requirement to be full-duplex just became moot.
How about a stupid question. If the system is VOX and full duplex. Doesn't your fellow officials whistles blow out your eardrums. Also I would think the conversations that we all have with players and coaches would get annoying to my fellow crewmembers who have no need or desire to listen in. Or is VOX like PTT in that you have to push a button to activate, the only difference is that you leave it pushed since it is full duplex and push it off when you are done with the conversation?
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How about a stupid question. If the system is VOX and full duplex. Doesn't your fellow officials whistles blow out your eardrums. Also I would think the conversations that we all have with players and coaches would get annoying to my fellow crewmembers who have no need or desire to listen in. Or is VOX like PTT in that you have to push a button to activate, the only difference is that you leave it pushed since it is full duplex and push it off when you are done with the conversation?
VOX (voice activated transmission) does not require PTT. So, you are absolutely correct, the other officials will hear every whistle, conversation, and talking to yourself that goes on in VOX mode. I think we can all agree we don't want that. PTT is the only way to go, taking away the requirement for full-duplex. That simply is not necessary since each official will need to push a button to talk at separate intervals. Just plain duplex, one to one or one to many, will work very well.
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How about a stupid question. If the system is VOX and full duplex. Doesn't your fellow officials whistles blow out your eardrums.
The VOX systems soccer officials use have a filter for the whistle frequency.
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The VOX systems soccer officials use have a filter for the whistle frequency.
CHING CHING $$$$$$
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The VOX systems soccer officials use have a filter for the whistle frequency.
I highly suspect there are a wide variety of whistles in use by TASO members. Personally, I'm old school. I like the old Acme Thunder and very much dislike anything Fox 40ish. Others really don't like the old metal whistles. To each his own.
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Whistle preference in soccer, especially outside of the US, seems to be much more varied than what we see in football (which is either predominantly the Fox40 or the Thunderer whistles).
I suspect the systems that soccer referees use are similar to electronic ear muffs that shooters use in that they cut out after a momentary spike in decibels. Of course that's pure speculation on my part.
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FYI full duplex is still full duplex even with the PTT. All 7 officials can activate their PTT and all can talk and hear each other at the same time. They don't have to wait for an interval to interject a comment. PTT only opens the mic. The radios are always transmitting and receiving.
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FYI full duplex is still full duplex even with the PTT. All 7 officials can activate their PTT and all can talk and hear each other at the same time. They don't have to wait for an interval to interject a comment. PTT only opens the mic. The radios are always transmitting and receiving.
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Understood. The pont is, it isn't necessary.
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You'd have to convince TASO of that.
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Don't underestimate me
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You'd have to convince TASO of that.
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Well with the TASO social media policy, we are not supposed to discuss........
But here we are. yEs:
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Received the 7 radios today. Got batteries in them and quickly set them up. Very simple. I've not done any communicating yet. There are 10,000,000,000 (10 billion) possible channel combinations, so someone listening in is practically impossible.
This isn't a very good picture, sorry.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4unqzs7no0ondto/Trisquare%20Radios.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4unqzs7no0ondto/Trisquare%20Radios.jpg?dl=0)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/4unqzs7no0ondto/Trisquare%20Radios.jpg?dl=0)
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Looks like Sears doesnt have them anymore...website is no longer up.
Any word as to whether a TSX100 and TSX300 are compatible together?
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I don't think they are compatible. They might be, but you'd have to know the codes to use on the 300 to match a 100. With 10 billion combinations, that might be tough.
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A little less preoccupation with gadgets, position letters, fashion, and other extraneous stuff and a little more concern over the rules and mechanics would make everyone much better. I have yet to see how my grandson's walkie talkies, or letters on the back of a shirt, or the width of a shirt stripe makes anyone a better official.
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Here we go... deadhorse: LOL
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Here we go... deadhorse: LOL
Yeah because no one has ever used technology to make anything better :sTiR: Since no one else on my crew reads the mechanics manual I can yell at them thru the headset when they are screwing up.
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Yeah because no one has ever used technology to make anything better :sTiR: Since no one else on my crew reads the mechanics manual I can yell at them thru the headset when they are screwing up.
if you are watching what your crew is doing instead of what the players are doing then maybe YOU need to be yelled at. ;D
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A little less preoccupation with gadgets, position letters, fashion, and other extraneous stuff and a little more concern over the rules and mechanics would make everyone much better. I have yet to see how my grandson's walkie talkies, or letters on the back of a shirt, or the width of a shirt stripe makes anyone a better official.
Amen, brother.
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Get off my lawn
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