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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: fencewire on August 01, 2017, 06:27:30 AM
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That seemed to be the hottest topic at the state meeting. The legality of jerseys and what was or was not considered to be contrasting colors, who would make that determination and how it would be equitably enforced from chapter to chapter across the state.
It seemed to my ears that the UIL kicked the whole issue by not over communicating the expectations and changes to their exception. Now they are expecting the officials to clean up the mess and putting us in the firing line (more so than usual)
Maybe this isn't really a big deal but a perusal around the WWW and you find many examples of jerseys that have been posted that we can look at and judge from our armchair or throne... I won't say the school just post the jersey if you know the town, keep it to yourself, that isn't the purpose of this thread.
Legal?
(http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/etsn.fm/files/2017/07/Elysian-FIelds_Jeb-Dickson_01.jpg)
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Opinions on both?
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The simplest fix for this is for us, as officials, to do nothing. This problem is caused by coaches who allow themselves to be duped by jersey manufacturers into buying 'cool' looking jerseys, rather than jerseys that comply with the rules. This is the coaches' problem. Yeah, it makes it a bit difficult on us, sometimes. But they are the ones that are putting us in this situation. If Team A gets mad about Team B's jerseys, tell them to take it up with the UIL. They are causing it. Put it back on them to fix it.
Robert
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Fortunately for us, the UIL does fix this.... in 2020... hEaDbAnG
EXCEPTION: 1-4-5-c-2. Add Note to read: “(Note: Numerals must be “clearly visible” on the field and from press box level – i.e., coaches, media, etc., can clearly see the numerals from the press box, and the numerals are clearly visible on film.
Effective for the 2020 season, the numerals on white or light colored jerseys must be black or dark color; numerals on dark colored jerseys must be white or light color.)”
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We cannot do anything at the game site, but let them play with what they have. If the home school has different jerseys available, maybe, but doubtful. All we can really do is report it to the UIL. Kind of like long half times, don't flag them, ever, just report them. If coach questions why you're not flagging it, tell him the UIL has directed us not to, but we will report them.
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Based on what was heard at the state meeting they do want us to flag them if we deem that their numbers do not contrast and charge them with a loss of a TO in each quarter.
Not that I necessarily agree with that, but that was what was being conveyed and was told to the coaches meeting by the UIL.
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As mentioned, the coaches have been told by the UIL that this will be enforced this year. One timeout at the beginning of each period that they don't comply. If they are out of timeouts then a 5 yard penalty is assessed. One pending question that we are waiting for an answer on is whether or not to charge a timeout for each extra period.
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But we are missing the point. Again.
We can all agree "it will be enforced". We know the rule.
However, no one wants to decide which jersey's are illegal. Why was this not done last year before schools ordered their jerseys. We have 3 different jerseys on this post. No one has said if any of these jerseys are illegal.
Silver on white is simple. What about yellow on green, purple on grey, orange on grey.
Gonna be one HECK of a pregame. "Hey coach, just so you know, WE (cuz it sure is not the UIL or TASO in the coaches eye, its those 5 guys that night) are going to take away 4 of your 6 timeouts before the game ever starts. Now who are your captains....."
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Based on what was heard at the state meeting they do want us to flag them if we deem that their numbers do not contrast and charge them with a loss of a TO in each quarter.
Not that I necessarily agree with that, but that was what was being conveyed and was told to the coaches meeting by the UIL.
I have good eyesight, so I'd say whatever they're wearing looks just fine. I don't have a problem with any of the jerseys posted in this string.
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And here we go. Neither right nor wrong, but one crew says illegal, another says not illegal (or just ignores). Week two could be a real mess.
And for something the coaches created and the UIL failed to effectively address before this season.
I stand by opinion that we simply do nothing, and let the coaches and the UIL fix this problem, if they think it is a problem. If Team A complains about Team B's jerseys, tell 'me to take it up with the UIL.
And this will be a prelude to getting the knees covered by pants and pads next year.
Robert
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And this will be a prelude to getting the knees covered by pants and pads next year.
That's another huge can of worms. I will enforce that strictly because I really think it is a safety issue. Not so much for the kid with the pants pulled above the knee but for the kid that gets that uncovered knee in the ribs, head, back, you name it.
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No dog in the hunt since I have retired but I say bag 'em and tag'em.
Even if some crews don't the word will spread
Coaches talk more than 9th grade school girls
Someone will call UIL and then get an answer
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There is an effort being made by TASO to give coaches an opportunity to email a picture to get a Yes or No on the legality of their jerseys. A database that is viewable by all that shows which schools have had jerseys approved is something that is in the works. I believe all coaches have been provided with this information if they paid attention to this topic at coaching school.
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Schools have had multiple years to comply with this rule - it wasn't just implemented. They were given ample time to use and purge non-compliant uniforms. UIL appears to not allow any more excuses and have asked for us to enforce the rule. I don't like being the uniform police any more than the next official but it is a point of emphasis this year and forward.
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1-4-5-c:
c. Numerals.
1. The jersey must have clearly visible, permanent Arabic numerals
measuring at least 8 and 10 inches in height front and back,
respectively. The number must be of a color that itself is clearly
in distinct contrast with the color of the jersey, irrespective of any
border around the number.
2. Teams wearing jerseys/numerals that do not conform to this rule
will be asked to change into legal jerseys before the game and before
the start of each quarter until the jerseys are changed. Officials
shall charge a team timeout at the start of each quarter the illegal
jerseys are worn. (A. R. 1-4-5-I)
3. All players of a team shall have the same color and style numbers
front and back. The individual bars must be approximately 1-1/2
inches wide. Numbers on any part of the uniform shall correspond
with the mandatory front and back jersey numbers.
I have seen very few jerseys over the years that do not meet these criteria. I can think of one a few years back where the jersey was white, the number was silver, and the outline of the number was black. It was very hard to see the numbers. I guess if we all hit this the first couple of weeks it should fix itself. Penalizing the kids for a coach not getting the correct jerseys is a bit of a tough sell.
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For those of us that suffer from color deficiency, I say follow the rules, you don't like it, take the T/O's and don't moan and complain. After all, it is in the rule book.
Its Texas HS football, not a fashion show. If you want to be a fashion trend setter, coach soccer or softball.
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For those of us that suffer from color deficiency, I say follow the rules, you don't like it, take the T/O's and don't moan and complain. After all, it is in the rule book.
Its Texas HS football, not a fashion show. If you want to be a fashion trend setter, coach soccer or softball.
This is the vague rule we will follow:
The jersey must have clearly visible, permanent Arabic numerals
measuring at least 8 and 10 inches in height front and back,
respectively. The number must be of a color that itself is clearly
in distinct contrast with the color of the jersey, irrespective of any
border around the number.
Jerseys would have to be really, really bad for me to pay any attention to them. The ones posted above follow this rule. The color of the numbers, in my view, are in "distinct contrast" with the color of the jersey.
Does anyone have an example of what would be considered not a legal jersey?
deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:
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Take a look at these jerseys used by Manvel (south of Houston ) a couple of years ago...
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Great example!
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Another example, from Clear Falls High School, a couple of years ago...
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Once again, good example.
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2015
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If any coach or school has a question or wants their jerseys "approved", they can email to footballjerseyquestion@gmail.com . A list is being assembled of approved and unapproved jerseys. All chapters will have access to the list. During the season, as incident reports come in, the list will be added to.
For myself, if I see a jersey that looks questionable I am going to have the crew stand 40 yards or so from the players and see if we can make out the numbers. If we clearly can, no foul. If they can't, then we start "the process". If it is close, I am saying legal TONIGHT, and then submitting incident report so can be reviewed.
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They will lose their timeout in the overtime period if their jerseys don'f conform to the rule. In other words, during the overtime they will NOT have a timeout available to use.
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2 questions regarding the footballjersey email account..
1) when will the "rulings" be made available and where
2) why use a generic gmail account rather than a taso.org account
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2 questions regarding the footballjersey email account..
1) when will the "rulings" be made available and where
2) why use a generic gmail account rather than a taso.org account
1) If the folks at Intra-Focus have anything to do with it I would say around 2021. 😄
2) That is a really good question. Certainly doesn't make it look "official."
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2) That is a really good question. Certainly doesn't make it look "official."
I think RR still uses a hotmail account. just sayin
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I've heard that there are some white jerseys with grey numerals that are being deemed "legal" by the grand wizard behind the email address. How is that possible? I thought grey/silver on white was an automatic?
What if we show up and judge them to be not contrasting after the grand wizard has said they are?
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1st - for those who see this as just another inconsequential uniform police issue, it is actually more than that. It is a gamesmanship issue which has been verified in countless discussions with coaches. Surprise, surprise but who noticed the potential advantage of numbers blending into the jersey first? Yep, the college coaches. By 2012 they had worked closely with uniform manufacturers and come out with all kinds of numeral/jersey combos that made it impossible to determine the jersey number from the pressbox. That meant coaches had no idea if the stud wide receiver was in the game or the true freshman snot nose kid. The NCAA stepped up in 2013 and changed the rule to address the growing tend of non visible jersey numbers. The UIL chose to except out the rule because of the cost. So Texas HS's could take advantage (and some did) of the newly found designs. By 2015, some Texas coaches started seeing how they were being confused and asked UIL to address. The UIL changed the exception and told schools the exception would be removed in 2017 and they would have to have contrasting numerals. 2017 is here and they did as they promised, they removed the exception.
I am not an interior decorator, but I do know there are different shades of gray. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Color_icon_gray_v2.svg/1200px-Color_icon_gray_v2.svg.png)
Some could be dark enough that they contrast with white.
If I am told a jersey has been deemed legal but on the field it does not appear to be when under the lights at night, I would permit it to be used and simply do an incident report.
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I am not an interior decorator, but I do know there are different shades of gray.
That's not what the rumors say.
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Is the approval in writing and showing a picture of the jersey in question?
If not it will wind up like the "approval" for visors of several years ago
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Is there an appeals process one way or the other? Or is the decision of the Wizard final? Who would be involved in an appellate process?
Say a team has a jersey that is deemed "illegal" but others with similar colored jerseys are "legal"?
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all joking aside, I am not sure why this relatively simple process is being drawn out. A wise official told me that just because the rule says light on light is illegal, doesn't mean that dark on dark isn't even though it doesn't say that, it is implied. So... an inverse relationship. The human eye can detect about 10 m colors, but some of us, males particularly can have some color blindness and see most colors just fine, but can't pick out small differences in shade, etc... I know this because I are one. But that wise official gave me an idea, look at the inverse of the colors for the answer.
So, White is on a RGb scale, (255,255,255), so black is (0,0,0) the inverse. In Macromedia Fireworks there is a filter that you can apply to any picture. It will examine the picture pixel by pixel, then turn that color into its inverse. This allows you to see relatively simply if the colors contrast, because if they contrast in what you see now, they should contrast when you invert all colors.
ETSN gives us a lot of material to test this theory on.
for example..
The attached visitor jersey clearly contrasts.. there is no question, so not surprisingly the inverse also contrasts starkly. However, the home jersey here, some might say that contrasts enough for me, but if you look at the inverse in parts where there is no glare from the flash, the inverted colors are almost identical and not contrasting.
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a red on black and blue on blueish.
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another from etx then some from around the state..
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some of the bigger programs should be having issues.
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this could go on for days...
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A similar process is being used that converts the full color image into a monochrome version. If there is contrast in the monochrome image then the jersey is deemed legal. The ones you have been showing would be deemed legal or illegal just as they would be deemed in this process as as the contrast is the same in the monochrome versions.
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Monochrome may work for home jerseys. But for white jerseys by monochroming you just enhance the contrast. All colors will contrast on top of of white in monochrome. But as long as a ruling is made and is published, let’s play football .
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hondo is correct, if a grayscale is being applied then white jerseys will be "under" considered as illegal and dark colored jerseys may be "over" considered.
Here are a few that were shown before with the inverted colors. The three visitor jerseys in grayscale show that there is even contrast with the "silver" numbers on white, which is universally considered to not contrast. The other two white jerseys also show contrast in grayscale that is not there as evidenced by looking at the inverse of their colors.
So all three of these white jerseys should be illegal.
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Guyer's jersey has been deemed "Legal". That's a real head scratcher.
Is that correct TxMike?
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hmm
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so has John Tyler's
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Okay, the start of the season is upon us. Where is this database of jerseys???
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wonder when this will be published ?
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https://www.seccountry.com/sec/look-florida-penalized-wearing-illegal-jerseys-vs-arkansas
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Are these grey jerseys legal?
http://seguingazette.com/sports/article_928c357c-903d-11e7-9f01-6bb37f662085.html?mode=image&photo=1 (http://seguingazette.com/sports/article_928c357c-903d-11e7-9f01-6bb37f662085.html?mode=image&photo=1)
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/seguingazette.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/ec/aec91d2a-902b-11e7-a600-a7da7e202d19/59ab2c96d0b59.image.jpg?resize=760%2C507)
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I am unable to locate it, but the NFHS actually has a color scale chart that shows the different shades of gray. If I recall correctly if the gray matched the 70% range on this chart then it was considered a dark color. Anything under 70, if I recall would pass as the light color.
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I am unable to locate it, but the NFHS actually has a color scale chart that shows the different shades of gray. If I recall correctly if the gray matched the 70% range on this chart then it was considered a dark color. Anything under 70, if I recall would pass as the light color.
If you showed up and saw this, what would you do? Personally, I'd probably take a picture and report it, but that's it.
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I am unable to locate it, but the NFHS actually has a color scale chart that shows the different shades of gray. If I recall correctly if the gray matched the 70% range on this chart then it was considered a dark color. Anything under 70, if I recall would pass as the light color.
I believe it's in this year's (or last year's) PPT presentation.
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I believe it's in this year's (or last year's) PPT presentation.
I found it. Not that we can use it for Texas but just thought it was interesting to see the Feds opinion. I have it attached. If it is in violation of any copyright please delete it.
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Some clarification from CFO in a memo today.
I found this particularly interesting:
11. What are the rules about the contrast of jerseys and numbers?
By rule each team must wear a jersey that has numbers that clearly contrast with the body
of the jersey (Rule 1-4.5-b).
• The number itself must clearly contrast, even if it has an outline or border.
• The number should be clearly visible from a significant distance.
• If there is any question as to whether the number and the jersey contrast, the jersey
may not be worn
Basically, if in doubt, it is illegal.
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