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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: ucanfindmj on July 26, 2019, 11:37:51 AM
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If R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, unless there was a foul before the kick and the penalty was accepted, or there was a double foul or there was an inadvertent whistle during the kick following the touching by R.
Question: Is there now an instance where that is not true in regards to, unless there was a foul before the kick and the penalty was accepted?
Answer: Yes, Due to the rule change last year, 10-4-2 Exception, about R accepting a foul by K during a scrimmage kick down, where R may accept the penalty from the succeeding spot and a new series will be awarded to R.
Play: During a scrimmage kick down, K holds R BEFORE kick and R muffs kick beyond the neutral zone, but recovers and is downed.
Ruling: R may accept holding penalty and retain possession (new series awarded to R) after 10 yd. penalty from succeeding spot.
Conclusion: The fundamental needs to be rewritten to reflect this rule change.
Note: This would not apply to PSK fouls as these fouls are always after kick and within the rule of this fundamental. Only for fouls by K, and R is in possession at the end of the down. There is no provision or rule that states that the fouls by K must be after the kick, only DURING the free or scrimmage kick down. Once the ball is legally kicked, it is now a free or scrimmage kick down and anything that happens before kick would be part of this free or scrimmage kick down.
Question: Which takes precedence, Fundamentals, or Rules?
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Fundamental VII Passes 2.
Offensive interior linemen are prohibited from advancing beyond the neutral zone only during a forward pass which crosses the neutral zone, but may advance after the pass is in flight.
Should read: ...beyond the EXPANDED neutral zone...
This makes a difference of up to 2 yards where they are allowed to be.
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If R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, a new series will be awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, unless there was a foul before the kick and the penalty was accepted, or there was a double foul or there was an inadvertent whistle during the kick following the touching by R.
Question: Is there now an instance where that is not true in regards to, unless there was a foul before the kick and the penalty was accepted?
Answer: Yes, Due to the rule change last year, 10-4-2 Exception, about R accepting a foul by K during a scrimmage kick down, where R may accept the penalty from the succeeding spot and a new series will be awarded to R.
Play: During a scrimmage kick down, K holds R BEFORE kick and R muffs kick beyond the neutral zone, but recovers and is downed.
Ruling: R may accept holding penalty and retain possession (new series awarded to R) after 10 yd. penalty from succeeding spot.
Conclusion: The fundamental needs to be rewritten to reflect this rule change.
Note: This would not apply to PSK fouls as these fouls are always after kick and within the rule of this fundamental. Only for fouls by K, and R is in possession at the end of the down. There is no provision or rule that states that the fouls by K must be after the kick, only DURING the free or scrimmage kick down. Once the ball is legally kicked, it is now a free or scrimmage kick down and anything that happens before kick would be part of this free or scrimmage kick down.
Question: Which takes precedence, Fundamentals, or Rules?
It is still the same there was a foul before the kick and it is accpted and now instead of going to the previous spot and replaying the down, probably a rekick, R gets the ball. I see no change to the exception other than who gets the ball and where.
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It is still the same there was a foul before the kick and it is accpted and now instead of going to the previous spot and replaying the down, probably a rekick, R gets the ball. I see no change to the exception other than who gets the ball and where.
Because the fundamental states that a new series will be awarded, unless there was a foul before the kick and penalty was accepted. The play I offered is now an exception to that. As the fundamental is written, you cannot have an acceptance of a penalty before the kick and still have a new series awarded. If fundamentals take precedence over rules, then R would not be given a new series after an accepted penalty for a foul by K and thus, does not match last years rule change.
Should be updated to read, ....unless acceptance of penalty requires replay of down.... This would allow for fundamental to stay true in all situations, as it cannot be true now with an exception (the example I provided) to their exception.
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Some of the fundamentals are short and sweet and helpful (like possession of a live ball in the opponent's endzone is always a touchdown). Easy.
Some of these, like the above, try to accomplish that, but they get super wordy and minimize the effectiveness of the fundamental list due to exceptions and other nuances of the rule.
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Because the fundamental states that a new series will be awarded, unless there was a foul before the kick and penalty was accepted. The play I offered is now an exception to that. As the fundamental is written, you cannot have an acceptance of a penalty before the kick and still have a new series awarded. If fundamentals take precedence over rules, then R would not be given a new series after an accepted penalty for a foul by K and thus, does not match last years rule change.
Should be updated to read, ....unless acceptance of penalty requires replay of down.... This would allow for fundamental to stay true in all situations, as it cannot be true now with an exception (the example I provided) to their exception.
There actually was a new series awarded in your situation. R was awarded a new series because they were in possession at the end of the down following a legal kick. Then, because of the exception, they were also allowed to accept penalty enforcement at the succeeding spot. While it’s entirely possible to spend several fruitless hours pouring over these technicalities, at the end of the day it’s like looking for fly poop in a pepper shaker- it won’t matter very much.
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