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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: TexDoc on November 14, 2019, 12:55:50 PM
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Have not heard from Permian or College Station so I made some assumptions. Please let me know of any corrections. I don't need corrections to day and place of game because those will go away upon update.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0)
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Thank you for sharing this!
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Thanks Doc!
great job as always tiphat:
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Thanks Doc. I always look forward to seeing this.
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Updated. I made a couple of assumptions. If you see any mistakes, please let me know.
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Hondo vs Rockport
CenTex
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Updated. I made a couple of assumptions. If you see any mistakes, please let me know.
Thanks. Made the change.
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You are famous, Doc. Our chapter secretary sent this out today.
One change: 4A Div 2, Rio Hondo vs Navarro is Houston.
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You are famous, Doc. Our chapter secretary sent this out today.
One change: 4A Div 2, Rio Hondo vs Navarro is Houston.
Change made. Thx.
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Am told the Corpus Christi-South Texas Chapter has now been assigned the Weslaco East vs. McAllen Rowe game, as well as the 2A Flatonia vs. La Pryor game. Late change?
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Thanks Doc!
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Am told the Corpus Christi-South Texas Chapter has now been assigned the Weslaco East vs. McAllen Rowe game, as well as the 2A Flatonia vs. La Pryor game. Late change?
There are two chapters down there, Corpus and Rio Grande Valley. Which chapter has those games? I thought they are both being worked by RGV.
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South Texas (Formerly Corpus Christi Chapter) has the Weslaco game.
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Updated with what I have for week 3. Still quite a few holes. Waiting on Fort Worth info and then there will be some questions still.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0
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Just sent you the Fort Worth games
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Updated as much as possible. Missing info on two games:
Lubbock Cooper / Canyon Randall
Oakwood / Richland Springs
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Updated as much as possible. Missing info on two games:
Lubbock Cooper / Canyon Randall
Oakwood / Richland Springs
Lubbock Cooper / Randall is supposed to be FTW.
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FTW doesnt have Randall and Cooper.
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FTW doesnt have Randall and Cooper.
Can't be AMI or SPC. Permian said they have nothing. Wondering if Abilene or NTX picked it up.
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FTW doesnt have Randall and Cooper.
They do now. ;D
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Yes they do!!!
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Does anybody else have a problem with NTX not having the Wichita Rider and Wichita High game or is it just me (and no I am not from that chapter)?
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I do and I’m not from that chapter either. That should be part of the UIL-TASO agreement that if two schools use the same chapter in the regular season and they meet in the playoffs that chapter should get the game. It’s ridiculous that schools (and its more than these two) will use a chapter all year and then all of a sudden playoffs cone around and it’s not good enough. If I was in charge, I’d be tempted to tell them to use that other chapter when next season rolls around. “Coach if we weren’t good enough in November, don’t call us in August.”
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Does anybody else have a problem with NTX not having the Wichita Rider and Wichita High game or is it just me (and no I am not from that chapter)?
This happens every year to almost every chapter. Yes, it is a huge problem. If my chapter supports your requirements from varsity down to 7th grade all year long, you really are obligated to use my chapter when you play another school that my chapter supported. When a chapter works a school's home scrimmage, they are obligated, by the UIL, to support that school all year long due to the school paying for the officials to the chapter. A strong message needs to be sent by chapters that get hosed in the playoffs to those schools that pull this BS by not sending officials to their home scrimmages the next year, with the message that you are on your own for officials this season. Also, when a chapter agrees to support a team's entire program from varsity to 7th grade, there should be a contract between the varsity schools in that district agreeing to utilize that chapter when in the playoffs when playing another school that chapter supports. No one ever seems to want to make a stand. But then again, there may be a lot more involved than most of us know. As long as coaches know they can get away with it, they will. This gets back to the whole coaches having the right to scratch.
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I don’t understand the logic of the schools using another chapter. I can understand they can’t agree on a crew but just have the chapter send a crew neither has used during the year.
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I don’t understand the logic of the schools using another chapter. I can understand they can’t agree on a crew but just have the chapter send a crew neither has used during the year.
Really? You don't understand the logic? It is very simple. If I can't get the guys that I believe (however misguided) will help me win, I'm dang sure gonna make sure it ain't people that I believe (however misguided) will help you win.
Anything that happened during the regular season goes out the window.
That will never change, as long as the competing teams have direct input on the assignment of officials.
Logic:
The U.I.L. has control of officiating assignments.
The U.I.L. is comprised almost exclusively of coaches (OK, superintendents, most of whom are ex-coaches).
The U.I.L. will never voluntarily relinquish control of officiating assignments.
Therefore, the assignment procedure in Texas will never change.
What would it take to make that change? Being a component under the Vice President for Diversity & Community Engagement at the University of Texas, to force the U.I.L. to relinquish that control would take a literal act of the State legislature. Yeah. Sure. They U.I.L. itself could voluntarily make that happen. The VP could make that happen. The President could make that happen. The Chancellor could make that happen. The Board of Regents could make that happen. Don't count on that goose laying a golden egg. So, we'd have to get some legislators on our side, to enact some legislation to make that happen. Anybody know a legislator that would at all be interested in taking this on? Not like they don't have anything else to consider, like school finance, flood water control, highway infrastructure improvements, energy production and commerce, firearms issues, etc. Even if you could find someone that would champion the cause, with a majority of legislators being UT grads, they ain't about to approve something that would weaken their institution even the micro-amount this would be.
It is the most conflict-of-interest laden system on the planet. Yet, sadly, it (probably) ain't gonna change.
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This happens every year to almost every chapter. Yes, it is a huge problem. If my chapter supports your requirements from varsity down to 7th grade all year long, you really are obligated to use my chapter when you play another school that my chapter supported. When a chapter works a school's home scrimmage, they are obligated, by the UIL, to support that school all year long due to the school paying for the officials to the chapter. A strong message needs to be sent by chapters that get hosed in the playoffs to those schools that pull this HORSE HOCKEY by not sending officials to their home scrimmages the next year, with the message that you are on your own for officials this season. Also, when a chapter agrees to support a team's entire program from varsity to 7th grade, there should be a contract between the varsity schools in that district agreeing to utilize that chapter when in the playoffs when playing another school that chapter supports. No one ever seems to want to make a stand. But then again, there may be a lot more involved than most of us know. As long as coaches know they can get away with it, they will. This gets back to the whole coaches having the right to scratch.
To jump on the band wagon...I too absolutely have an issue with is occurring. This response brings up a very good point regarding the requirement for a chapter to cover the games of a school when that chapter charges them for the scrimmage. It's always a one-way street but that can change if a chapter will stand their ground. In this particular case, stand your ground by telling the WF AD (who gets to respond on behalf of both coaches) that the chapter will be meeting, or has met, and ALL officials in the chapter agree they will not work any game where one of those two schools is participating. You can go as far as including games where one of the two schools is also the visiting school. That way, for example, if WF High is playing a JV game at Vernon (another school covered by this chapter), the WF High coach or WF AD can then explain to the Vernon coach why no officials will be present. That being "sorry coach but we do not have any officials available that are willing to officiate this contest."
Additionally, and I know this is easier said than done, but I would also like to see the chapter who is receiving the game graciously decline by telling the schools they respect their fellow officiating colleagues (the offended chapter) work and kindly decline to send officials to work that game. If all chapters would respond accordingly when this occurs there could be some additional power taken back by the chapters. But of course we all know not every chapter will abide by that kind of "gentlemen's" agreement.
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Additionally, and I know this is easier said than done, but I would also like to see the chapter who is receiving the game graciously decline by telling the schools they respect their fellow officiating colleagues (the offended chapter) work and kindly decline to send officials to work that game. If all chapters would respond accordingly when this occurs there could be some additional power taken back by the chapters. But of course we all know not every chapter will abide by that kind of "gentlemen's" agreement.
But don't decline it the week before. Wait till the day before to decline it. >:D
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I don't know, this probably wont be very popular, but... does this really happen that often? I mean, we have the data, almost 20 years worth, how many times a year does this really happen? It is easy to say "We wont cover your SV next year". Coaches get weird this time of year and this is one of the ways that manifests itself. Most chapters have had this happen, and most have also been the beneficiary of this type of thing happening.
So, it kind of comes out in the wash in the end.
Now, if a school is covered by a chapter and refuses to use that chapter in the playoffs and does that year in and year out, then that should be worth a discussion, in the offseason. And certainly an agreement with the school could be made to not cover them the next season...
But just for a rare occurrence…. isn't that kind of making us part of the game (and I understand all the points above).
When I was a younger official this type of thing fired me up. But a wiser gentlemen said "Sometimes coaches just feel they need to shake things up to try and win and move on, and we are one of those things that can be shaken..."
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For a respective chapter the frequency of this happening is not very much (maybe once every three or four years) which, in my opinion, adds to the chapters argument. If it was occurring within the chapter multiple times a season, every season, I would tell you there’s an issue with the chapter. But infrequent tells me all other teams do not have an issue with the chapter so that makes it much easier for the chapter to stand up for themselves, which they should do. I just hope every chapter member will take the stance scratch the teams but that’s highly unlikely. I promise you there’s a terrible crew chomping at the opportunity to finally get into a 5A stadium game. And that crew is not the quality product the chapter wants on that field.
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It probably happens more in bigger chapters where their teams play each other in the playoffs more often.
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I don't know, this probably wont be very popular, but... does this really happen that often? I mean, we have the data, almost 20 years worth, how many times a year does this really happen? It is easy to say "We wont cover your SV next year". Coaches get weird this time of year and this is one of the ways that manifests itself. Most chapters have had this happen, and most have also been the beneficiary of this type of thing happening.
So, it kind of comes out in the wash in the end.
Now, if a school is covered by a chapter and refuses to use that chapter in the playoffs and does that year in and year out, then that should be worth a discussion, in the offseason. And certainly an agreement with the school could be made to not cover them the next season...
But just for a rare occurrence…. isn't that kind of making us part of the game (and I understand all the points above).
When I was a younger official this type of thing fired me up. But a wiser gentlemen said "Sometimes coaches just feel they need to shake things up to try and win and move on, and we are one of those things that can be shaken..."
It does happen multiple times every year. Maybe not to the same chapter, but it does happen every year.
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When these scenarios happen perhaps the non-home chapters should tell the Coaches no thanks. You both have a home chapter more than capable of officiating your game. Just a thought :)
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First off, Happy Thanksgiving to you all. I've been reading this board for many, many years but as you can see don't post, ever really. I will chime in on this one though. Just to piggy back on what everyone has said, I completely agree with it all. (taking a change from a standpoint that Elvis mentioned would be a long almost impossible process. However taking a stand like some others have mentioned would not be, and actually be very simple if the chapters would just grow a set and make it happen. Just taking San Antonio as an example (I'm not in SA and don't know if it has even happened in SA). SA ABC HS is playing SA XYZ HS tomorrow in the 3rd round of the playoffs. They are using Houston chapter. SA chapter calls both coaches today and tell them exactly what has been mentioned on this board. We understand you are not comfortable with using us in the playoffs in Nov/Dec, so we are not comfortable with serving you in Aug, Sept, Oct so please make plans now to have some other chapter cover your games, 7th grade thru Varsity for the entire 2020 Football season. And that's it - period. No negotating, changing your mind, etc. Coaches will be officiating sub-varsity games b/c no other chapter in the state can/will send officials that far out 1) b/c what wants to travel that far for sub-varsity and 2) most chapters barely have enough to cover their own sub-varsity. As for Varsity, we know there will be some chapters out there that will send officials for them, but if it changes throughout the year, nothing is consistent, probably getting some newer officials and rookies, and paying an arm and a leg for travel. At some point, principals, AD's, someone in finance is going to see the outreageous costs associated with officials when their school is playing next year (all year, home road, etc). Again, no going back on this - chapter stands strong the ENTIRE year. Pretty sure there are still plenty of HS's in SA region for officials to work and nobody is going to be sitting at home by taking this stand. Just grow a set and do it. Just my opinion. Sickening that the coaches have this much pull. Again, not part of SA and don't even know if it's happening, just used as an example as we all know it's happening at least to a few chapters throughout the state. Bottom line is, local chapters can take a stand and make it a hardship for these schools that decide to make these playoff decisions. Is it a cure all/fix all, absolutely not, but like in anything else in life, if you take a stand for what you believe in, it's going to open some eyes and get some attention, somewhere, somehow. Once again, Happy Thanksgiving to all of you and your families.
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Couple of follow up thoughts based on the recent responses, which I appreciate. Using the example mentioned that references San Antonio, support from nearby chapters is a must as well. So In the example the Austin chapter should reject the season schedule as well. For NTX in this real scenario they would need to have FTW, Dallas and Abilene also say no thanks. It has to hurt. Lastly, we need TASO’s full support from the top down because we all know what’s going to hit the fan when the AD contacts UIL But this can be done!
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Let’s not forget these games aren’t about us.
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Let’s not forget these games aren’t about us.
Without a doubt, the games are never about the officials. I think I see the direction you are heading with your statement, but if schools aren’t using their own chapter that covers their varsity and sub-v games all season long, then there is an underlying issue. Coaches request crews regularly during the regular season, just like the playoffs. Some larger chapters use the draft system, again where the more popular crews among the coaches will be drafted with frequency. Were the officials that called their regular season games not sufficient enough for WF High and WF Rider? Were crews out of their home chapter already on other playoff games?
You can not argue, in my opinion, that if officials from their home chapter were available that they used in varsity games during the regular season, that these officials (barring any egregious situation that would have come up in game) aren’t up to the task to call this playoff game as well. As we all know, playoff assignments are hard to come by. Coaches requests come first and take precedence. When those coaches are from the same area and utilize the same chapter for officials, those officials should be given the benefit of the doubt.
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I 100% agree they should use their local chapter, and I mean in general, not just this specific incident. However, I think talking about boycotts, getting other chapters to do the same, etc., is over the top.
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Many,many years ago two small schools in the Panhandle asked UIL to assign a crew for a DISTRICT basketball game.
UIL assigned a crew from the Valley. After airfare, car rental, hotel, meals, etc the schools learned their lesson.
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It does happen multiple times every year. Maybe not to the same chapter, but it does happen every year.
Hey Doc, how often, per year, on average do you think this happens? Single digits? Low teens?
Just curious..... I don't always know all the schools unless it is very obvious (like two Wichita Falls schools not using NTX, for example :) )
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I have a crazy idea in the other direction. After the first round of the playoffs, no chapter works any games for any school they cover during the regular season. Even by agreement. Different looks for the playoffs.
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Hey Doc, how often, per year, on average do you think this happens? Single digits? Low teens?
Just curious..... I don't always know all the schools unless it is very obvious (like two Wichita Falls schools not using NTX, for example :) )
Half a dozen in a season I'd say.
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Would never fly (probably even here as well) but I'd like to see crew assignments based on where the game is played. Abilene school vs Amarillo team, played in Lubbock? Congrats, SPC, you get to send a crew to that game. Coaches can scratch individuals/and or complete crew but whoever they decide on is going to be coming from SPC chapter.
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What do you do for the State Championships usually always in DFW?
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What do you do for the State Championships usually always in DFW?
Oh boy! Please let’s not start this argument already. It will come soon enough.
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Would never fly (probably even here as well) but I'd like to see crew assignments based on where the game is played. Abilene school vs Amarillo team, played in Lubbock? Congrats, SPC, you get to send a crew to that game. Coaches can scratch individuals/and or complete crew but whoever they decide on is going to be coming from SPC chapter.
Team A vs Team B has crew Jackson. Team A wins the game.
Team C vs Team D has crew Jones. Team C wins the game.
Team A vs Team C. Coin toss to determine if Jackson or Jones works the game. Keep doing that all the way to the championships.
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Team A vs Team B has crew Jackson. Team A wins the game.
Team C vs Team D has crew Jones. Team C wins the game.
Team A vs Team C. Coin toss to determine if Jackson or Jones works the game. Keep doing that all the way to the championships.
^no
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What do you do for the State Championships usually always in DFW?
For championship games, mutual agreement on officiating chapter. Heck, could even do this for semis and quarters even. But the rest, local game, local chapter.
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For championship games, mutual agreement on officiating chapter. Heck, could even do this for semis and quarters even. But the rest, local game, local chapter.
The decision on officials for football should follow the process of all other UIL sports. That being, when they get to the semi-finals and finals the coaches should have no say in which chapter or officials are calling the game. UIL assigns the the chapter the game and that chapter shall not be affiliated with either participating team.
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The decision on officials for football should follow the process of all other UIL sports. That being, when they get to the semi-finals and finals the coaches should have no say in which chapter or officials are calling the game. UIL assigns the the chapter the game and that chapter shall not be affiliated with either participating team.
So it has been written, so it shall be done.
...I wish LOL
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In all sports, coaches pick through the Semi-Finals. Football is the only sport that lets the coaches pick for the Championship.
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Hmmm. Imagine this: A 'judicial' system that allows the defendants to select:
- which enforcement officers will be on duty at any given place and time to observe violations
- which judge will preside over any judicial proceeding regarding any apparent violations
- the members of any jury that will decide guilt or innocence of violations, and assess proper punishment
What kind of a system would allow for such egregious conflict of interest?
What is it game officials for UIL contests do?
- observe and declare violations when they occur
- interpret the laws to ensure actions taken related to apparent fouls and violations are proper
- determine guilt or innocence, and enforce the prescribed penalties
And how are game officials assigned for UIL (Texas) contests?
- Per UIL, officials must be mutually acceptable to both contestants.
In other words, the contestants (defendants) are allowed to decide:
- which officials will be on duty at any given place and time to observe the contest and ensure compliance with rules (police)
- which officials will ensure proper procedures regarding apparent fouls and violations will be followed (judge)
- who will decide guilt or innocence, and assess proper punishment for observed fouls and violations (jury)
There you have it. Anybody see a conflict of interest?
Robert
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I think civil litigants rather than criminal defendants would be a better comparison. However, there is some element of selection in the court system. Plaintiffs can file in a locale, provided there is both what is called jurisdiction and venue.
I don't have a problem with schools selecting preferred chapters but it should stop there. The chapters should make the assignments.
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Updated
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0
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I don't have a problem with schools selecting preferred chapters but it should stop there. The chapters should make the assignments.
You must not have ever been an assignor. We make lots of "friends" this time of the year. I don't mind the coach picking and the let them be the bad guy for a change. Plus they can't call me to complain if they get upset over something. "Sorry coach, but you picked them." ;D
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I understand it creates other problems. There's no perfect system for everyone. It would be nice if there was an unbiased committee of, say, retired officials who could have seen all the crews work during the regular season and make anonymous choices during the playoffs. It would also be nice if our politicians were all above reproach.
But I think coaches picking specific crews is very problematic for a number of reasons. Local chapters making assignments isn't perfect but it is better. One of the things that might help is for non-local assignors such as yourself to make assignments for crews lead by assignors or officers of other chapters. I know it would be additional work and headache but it may alleviate SOME distress.
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JasonTx, I can only imagine how many "friends" a chapter assignor would get as the playoffs begin...that is one reason why relying on the chapter would be problematic, not to mention the ever possibility playing "favorites" that might creep into some chapters' assignments.
JoeStack, while not perfect, we as officials must remember that we are a "contract" and "part-time" employee when we officiate (not to mention that no where is it said we are ever guaranteed games)...on the other hand, the Coaches (who pick and must agree on the crews chosen to officiate) are full-time employees of their respective schools. Their livelihoods often depend on the success of their programs and teams.
In most examples, both coaches have seen and worked with the crews they choose and they like, respect, etc. the manner in which they officiate football games. My only suggestion to get more and better playoff games is that the crew work harder each and every game, each and every season and off-season to improve their quality of work. Set yourself personal goals and your white hat and fellow crew members set goals to get better at officiating (i.e. knowledge of the rules, mechanics, philosophies, etc.) and good things will come from that hard work.
Coaches talk and coaches recommend to other coaches what crews are good and which ones are not. THAT is how you get more, better, and bigger playoff games assigned!
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Coaches talk and coaches recommend to other coaches what crews are good and which ones are not. THAT is how you get more, better, and bigger playoff games assigned!
That's exactly right. It's like going to a restaurant and the food is excellent. You end up telling all your friends about it and the next thing you know everyone wants to eat at that restaurant.
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That's exactly right. It's like going to a restaurant and the food is excellent. You end up telling all your friends about it and the next thing you know everyone wants to eat at that restaurant.
But the competing restaurant next door doesn't think that restaurants food is that good and that the discussion among friends is fake and falsified (aka: solicited). That competing restaurant goes around telling others lies in their attempt to get the "friends" to come their establishment.
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Houston y’all!!! aWaRd
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Updated. I don't know who has Ft. Bend Marshall / Boerne Champion and Canadian / Gunter.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0
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Abilene has Candian vs. Gunter game this week.
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My wife is a Hamlin grad and if we weren't going to our son's USAF basic training graduation this weekend we absolutely would be going that game and banging on a trashcan there LOL.
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Anybody know who has the 6 man championship games?
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Ft. Bend Marshall / Boerne Champion
Dallas.
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Anybody know who has the 6 man championship games?
Check latest update.
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Amarillo Chapter had the Richland Springs v. Strawn Semi final
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Final is posted.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7idgzl636e6450/2019TRNY.pdf?dl=0)
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Interesting that Abilene would get the Hamlin / Mart game. I would assume, just geographically speaking, that Abilene would serve Hamlin during the regular season and surprised Mart would agree to that, but again just an assumption and we all know how that plays out. Maybe Hamlin uses another chapter?
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Interesting that Abilene would get the Hamlin / Mart game. I would assume, just geographically speaking, that Abilene would serve Hamlin during the regular season and surprised Mart would agree to that, but again just an assumption and we all know how that plays out. Maybe Hamlin uses another chapter?
Abilene does cover Hamlin. Not all coaches are concerned with "home chapters" working a game. Abilene has had some runs with Mart so that coach is comfortable using that chapter. In 2017 they had them almost every round including the title game. This year they had their qtr final game. Kudos to them for getting the game. It is rare to be able to do a title game with one of your own schools.
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Thanks Doc for the work on spreadsheet again this season. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Congrats to all working this championship week. Prayers to all for safe travels and make us all proud.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks Doc for the work on spreadsheet again this season. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Congrats to all working this championship week. Prayers to all for safe travels and make us all proud.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes sir. I enjoy doing it. Won't be doing it a whole lot longer so I will hand this off to a younger person in a few years after I hang it up.
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Will all games be 7 man?
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I believe so.
Waiting to get into Hamlin/Mart the crowd for an2A game is UNREAL. I think half of West Texas is here 😂
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Will all games be 7 man?
The Class A games were crews of 5. All crews for 11 player games are 7.
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My TASO badge got me in for free.
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Not sure if I’m watching an NFL or high school game. I’ve seen strutting 2x, pointing for a first down, and it’s not even the end of the first quarter.
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Abilene chapter did a fantastic job.
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Abilene chapter did a fantastic job.
They looked sharp.
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they did... 3 reviews, I think one call on the field was changed, but it was super close (whether inbounds foot was down first, or out of bounds), other two stood as called. All three were short.
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Replay has been a good addition. They bailed the last crew out on a facemask foul on a TD. Referee announced it was declined. Replay guy on sideline told referee it can carry over to the kickoff.
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Here's something you don't see every day. https://twitter.com/DMNGregRiddle/status/1208211354273759232
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This is a really interesting play to talk about.
This is a foul during a run play, NOT a scrimmage kick. If the B player had been tackled short of the goal line, it is not eligible for 6-3-13 tack on enforcement. The only options would be decline and take the end of the return or take the safety by penalty. Also a good reminder that 5 AND 10 yard penalties are declined by rule. This cannot carry over to the try or kickoff.
This ball is loose from the snap, so it is still a backward pass even after the illegal kick. If the ball had gone out of bounds, it would stay at that spot. It would not come back to the previous spot where possession was lost because it is a backward pass, not a fumble. If a team A player had recovered it, play would continue because, again, it is a backward pass, not a fumble.
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Also good to make sure we use the right words. It was not an illegal kick, which would cause the ball to become dead. Rather, it was illegally kicking the ball, and the ball remains live. Good job by the crew.
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Not sure I completely agree Legacy Zebra. This play is a scrimmage kick play per Rule 2-17-6; the kick occurred before a change of possession, and there is nothing in Rule 2-17-6 or 10-2-4 that states the kick itself must be legal. Therefore, in addition to the option of safety if penalty accepted, Team B could have added penalty yardage (10 yards or 1/2 distance to goal line) if the Team B runner was tackled short of goal line.
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Also good to make sure we use the right words. It was not an illegal kick, which would cause the ball to become dead. Rather, it was illegally kicking the ball, and the ball remains live.
It was a kick of the ball that was illegal. An illegal kick. What it wasn't was an illegal scrimmage kick that would cause the ball to become dead. If we really want to be pedantic.
Not sure I completely agree Legacy Zebra. This play is a scrimmage kick play per Rule 2-17-6; the kick occurred before a change of possession, and there is nothing in Rule 2-17-6 or 10-2-4 that states the kick itself must be legal
This can not be a scrimmage kick play because there is no scrimmage kick. A scrimmage kick is a punt, drop kick, or field goal place kick. This player did not drop the ball and (1) kick it before it touched the ground for a punt or (2) kick it as it touched the ground for a drop kick. And it obviously wasn't controlled on the ground or a tee by a teammate for a field goal place kick. So since it doesn't meet the definition of any of the scrimmage kicks, it isn't a scrimmage kick.
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Reviewed the relevant rules again, and your statement. Agree with your assessment. It did not meet the definition of a scrimmage kick therefore rule 10-2-4 does not apply. Never thought about this scenario; good case play. Thanks for positing:)
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Not sure I completely agree Legacy Zebra. This play is a scrimmage kick play per Rule 2-17-6; the kick occurred before a change of possession, and there is nothing in Rule 2-17-6 or 10-2-4 that states the kick itself must be legal. Therefore, in addition to the option of safety if penalty accepted, Team B could have added penalty yardage (10 yards or 1/2 distance to goal line) if the Team B runner was tackled short of goal line.
No clue whose rules you are referencing, but it ain't NCAA, which, with UIL exceptions, is what is used here in Texas. 2-16-1 addresses what constitutes a legal kick, and, to be legal, the kick must be made according to the requirements for any of the three legal types of kicks (punt, drop kick, or place kick). No other type of kick is legal. The kick in question was none of those legal types of kicks.
Per 2-16-7, a scrimmage kick play requires the kick to be one of the three legal kicks described in 2-16-1. Since it was not a legal kick, this was not a scrimmage kick play.
There is a difference between an "illegal kick" and "illegally kicking the ball". An illegal kick is a kick made in accordance with the requirements of one of the three types of legal kicks, but at a time when such a kick is not permitted. When an "illegal kick" is made, the ball is dead. The penalty is 5 yards (enforcement spots vary, by rules).
By 6-3-10, "Illegally kicking the ball" is kicking the ball not in accordance with the requirements of one of the three types of legal kicks (regardless of when or made or any other circumstance). By 9-4-4, kicking a loose ball or ball held by an opponent is illegally kicking the ball, and the penalty is 10 yards, with Basic Spot enforcement, and loss of down, if by Team A before a change of team possession.
So, in the down in question, the ball was loose from the snap, which is a backward pass, when it was kicked by the Team A player. That's a foul for illegally kicking the ball. The ball, and, thus, the foul, was in A's end zone. Per Basic Spot enforcement, the Basic Spot for this foul is the Previous Spot. Per the 3 & 1 principal, the spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot, so the enforcement spot is the spot of the foul. Since the spot of the foul is in their own end zone, the penalty results in a safety, 2 points for B, if elected. On this down in question, the live ball was legally recovered by B and advanced across A's goal line for an apparent TD. Team B has the option to decline the penalty for Illegally Kicking the ball, and take the result of the play, i.e., Touchdown, which they did.
The crew handled it properly, although it took the R quite some time to process what happened and drop his flag in the end zone. But he did, and they completed the penalty properly.