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Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: dammitbobby on December 03, 2020, 08:20:49 PM
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Sure hope he’s ok
Also hope he presses charges
https://twitter.com/_7santiago/status/1334683075603795969?s=21
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Last I heard, he got up and was walking around.
Also: not a playoff game, just playing for a playoff spot.
In a situation like this, what are the crew’s options? Can they say ‘see ya, we’re out’ without repercussions? Or is there an obligation to finish the game? At what point does game administration become involved? If they walk, is it a forfeit o up to the administrators to hash out?
Genuinely asking. I hope I am never in a situation such as this.
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Wait for the one attacked, with police. Then walk off field to locker room and summon coaches.
A discussion will be had.
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I note that the player was not immediately arrested, all the news indications are he was "escorted" out by police.
Is this a situation that the jurisdiction requires the victim to personally press charges?
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I note that the player was not immediately arrested, all the news indications are he was "escorted" out by police.
Is this a situation that the jurisdiction requires the victim to personally press charges?
Whatever the necessary legal procedure is required, it needs to be followed. Any attack on any game official needs to be taken to the fullest legal conclusion, we EACH, OWE that to each other. There is simply, ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TOLERATED.
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UIL needs a 1 strike policy at this point. He wasn’t a 1st time offender.
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Whatever the necessary legal procedure is required, it needs to be followed. Any attack on any game official needs to be taken to the fullest legal conclusion, we EACH, OWE that to each other. There is simply, ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TOLERATED.
Right on, Al.
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UIL needs a 1 strike policy at this point. He wasn’t a 1st time offender.
That requires no previous incident. He's charged with the highest degree of assault possible; he's suspended from school for as long as can be legally permitted; and banned from any extracurricular activity forever. And, he pays for any medical expenses that may be incurred by the official.
And the official should seriously consider civil action against the player, and, perhaps the school, since I saw other sideline personnel charging toward the official and NOT trying to stop the offender. Other sideline personnel were charging toward the opposing team players, before the official was so viciously knocked to the ground. What the heck is going on at that school? At the very least, the school district should consider punitive action against the school, as well.
Inexcusable.
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Unfortunately too often this behavior bypasses the legal system because "he's just a kid" or "he got caught up in the heat of the moment." ::)
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That requires no previous incident. He's charged with the highest degree of assault possible; he's suspended from school for as long as can be legally permitted; and banned from any extracurricular activity forever. And, he pays for any medical expenses that may be incurred by the official.
And suffice it to say, he has probably thrown out any chance of playing college football.
What an idiotic thing to do. Just glad the official is okay and suffered no serious injury.
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bypasses the legal system because "he's just a kid" or "he got caught up in the heat of the moment.
I worked in the legal system. Bypass? That would be the prevailing theory IN the legal system.
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Speaking as an R that takes blood thinner. A hit like that would be very expensive and possibly fatal. Even if I got up it would require a trip to the hospital and and MRI to insure no cranial bleeding.
That "kid" (all 250# plus of him) needs to spend some time in jail.
It looks like the coaches that ran toward the other team were trying to keep the white team away from the problem area and the kid.
I know this kid is the exception but it has been my experience that a lot of the reactions and actions of the kids on the field is a reflection of the coach's attitude toward officials.
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Just read that the Edinburg school board met and voted to forfeit the playoffs
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That's a good, responsible step from the school district.
Looks like he's been charged with class A assault (believe it's misdemeanor) https://www.themonitor.com/2020/12/04/edinburg-high-football-player-attacked-referee-charged-assault/
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Just read that the Edinburg school board met and voted to forfeit the playoffs
Good decision, from a punitive perspective for the coaches/administrators. The sad thing is, for administrators, they have had their hands tied with regard to discipline ever since the 80's. Discipline in public schools today is next to nothing, and that is either legislatively or judicially determined, not left to the local school boards, etc., as it was in better times. I have witnessed students (in school) talking back to teachers, ignoring their directions to return to class, etc. Not surprising a coach doesn't have as much influence over his players as in days past, even if he wants to exert discipline. Even more sad, is many of those coaches don't care about this kind of behavior, except to the extent that it affects their win/loss record. I have heard on many occasions when we have called a UNS on a player, his coach will just yell at us that we need to use better judgment (i.e., don't call fouls on my players - let them do what they want - they are just kids). See what happens?
Despite this decision, I would bet a game fee that this kid will be back on the field next year. That is, unless he gets thrown in jail for something even more egregious between now and then. Scary to think of anything more egregious, though.
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Looks like he's been charged with class A assault (believe it's misdemeanor) https://www.themonitor.com/2020/12/04/edinburg-high-football-player-attacked-referee-charged-assault/
Good. I'm not bailing him out.
Edit: My research shows that a Class A misdemeanor is the worst of the misdemeanor offenses, with the greatest potential punishment (jail time up to 1 year and/or fine).
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THIS where it will get interesting, legally.
Duron, the team's "star defender," was suspended in the 2019-20 soccer season for an incident similar to the one that took place on Thursday.
Plaintiff's attorney- "You mean he's done this before??!!
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/texas-high-school-football-player-who-hit-referee-charged-with-assault-team-removed-from-playoffs/?fbclid=IwAR2KlBQRteaVkfva6C5io7YW9p4RzbgWPKp-l16HVU463rQUBcTr0tarSgY
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In Florida, the result is an immediate arrest. He would have been cuffed before he reached the sideline with the coaches. Felony charges for assaulting a "Game Official" More states need to implement the same.
The year the law was passed, every fan, player and coach received a copy of the new law and it's enforcement ....
For the next two seasons were were escorted on and off the field during half time. On our first escort, cop beside me says "Excuse me, I have to go and explain to someone's mother why I can arrest her for screaming at the crew."
When they were waiting for us to come out of the locker room ....I said "Did you tell my Mom to cut it out?" ^flag
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THIS where it will get interesting, legally.
Duron, the team's "star defender," was suspended in the 2019-20 soccer season for an incident similar to the one that took place on Thursday.
Plaintiff's attorney- "You mean he's done this before??!!
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/texas-high-school-football-player-who-hit-referee-charged-with-assault-team-removed-from-playoffs/?fbclid=IwAR2KlBQRteaVkfva6C5io7YW9p4RzbgWPKp-l16HVU463rQUBcTr0tarSgY
Really sad when "centuries" old experiences are ignored... When really bad behavior is ignored (excused, tolerated, disregarded),it's only going to repeat itself. Consequences, especially those that leave "scar tissue" are usually effective and lasting teachers.
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TASO needs to have a much more proactive stance on this incident than they did on the one in 2015. Then, they let the school districts change the narrative to the official involved rather than the players and I think the kids even ended up on TV (correct that if wrong) spreading their nonsense about the guy's alleged racial words. Turns out the guy's best friend was an African American! Then, the school districts wanted the whole thing to just "go away," and UIL was fine with all that, so it did.
If this kid did have a history of this, and he was still on the varsity field, the school should face some serious repercussions. This CAN NOT happen again.
As far as what to do if this happens in your game? I'd say dealers call. If it happened in mine, obviously it would be fact dependent. Hell, I was ready to walk off the field a few weeks ago when the teams themselves couldn't behave; it wouldn't take much to convince me to leave if my crew's safety was in doubt. You get together and discuss it -- but it MUST be focused on safety concerns and not retribution. As much as I'd hate seeing a crew mate and friend go down in a manner like this, we MUST remain professionals. If we were to leave the field to spite a team or to cause a team harm, then I'm afraid we've committed a violation of our own standards. Not as big a violation as violence, so don't get me wrong here.
What I thought was interesting about the hit on the R was that the other team came after the player immediately after the hit. They may have wanted any excuse to go after the guy but they did react immediately in defense to the hit on an official. That's got to make us feel at least partially good about the situation.
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Is this a situation that the jurisdiction requires the victim to personally press charges?
Eventually, yes. Most everywhere (in the US) the DA is not going to go forth with a case involving violence, outside of maybe political hot-button cases like domestic violence, without the victim pressing charges. Even with DV cases, if he victim is hell bent on not testifying (he or she really can't get out of it if they are called) or downplaying or outright lying (something no one will be able to prove), the DA isn't going to waste his or her time. Too much other work to do and cases to prosecute.
However, most people don't know that you can not be arrested in Texas without a warrant unless the arrest falls under certain situations. The most common exception is a peace officer actually viewing the offense, so ANY offense he views, even if it is a Class C and would offer no jail time as a penalty, could serve as the basis for a legal arrest. Incidentally, forget the term false arrest, at least in Texas. No such thing. There are legal and illegal arrests. False arrest is common law torts, and I'm not even sure it is a valid civil cause of action in Texas -- it may be but under another name. But I digress (sorry).
Anyway, the officers working security that saw the incident could very well have placed the player under arrest if they had jurisdiction and if their department allowed it (and I'm sure it was yes to both). That is why you hire police officers for security. I don't know if they did, but at this point it doesn't matter. He was charged and now has to surrender or he will have a warrant issued. If he appears, he'll be fingerprinted and make a bond. He may or may not be arraigned -- not sure at that level of criminal offense. But either way, if the official does not want to proceed with the charges, they will be eventually dropped. Hopefully it will at least be after the player is out the 15 percent fee for the bond and attorneys fees.
There are also civil causes of action the Referee has -- against the player and in my opinion, (POSSIBLY) against the coaches and school district. Going against the district is tricky as they have statutory immunity to some claims, another reason why that needs to be abolished. He may or may not want to go after district employees. But that's the thing I don't like about immunity: say there's an issue as to what the school district did and a coach or AD did. The district might get off Scott free but the employee doesn't have such immunity. They will, however, get the benefit of the school district's legal defense team if it comes to that.
I say take them down. This crap must end. NOW.
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Do we know why the player was originally ejected?
My decision on whether or not to forfeit and leave would depend in large part on the reaction of the coaching staff and teammates of the offender. If I felt they were truly contrite and that this was solely the action of one rogue player, I’d likely continue the game.
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From what I read, late hit on QB and then an unsportsmanlike
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Do we know why the player was originally ejected?
My decision on whether or not to forfeit and leave would depend in large part on the reaction of the coaching staff and teammates of the offender. If I felt they were truly contrite and that this was solely the action of one rogue player, I’d likely continue the game.
This. In addition, I would give everyone on the crew a voice in the decision.
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My decision on whether or not to forfeit
In addition, I would give everyone on the crew a voice in the decision.
NFHS has 3 rulebook forfeits and this doesn't fit any of those. (I realize Texas is NCAA). I'm going to consult administration, Head Coaches, and whoever is in charge of security on scene along with the crew. The wiser course of action would be to suspend the game if a decision was reached to stop and let the governing body sort it out.
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The wiser course of action would be to suspend the game if a decision was reached to stop and let the governing body sort it out.
Personal safety is a GENERAL (and PRIMARY) concern regarding EVERYONE (Game Officials, Players, Coaches, Cheer Leaders, Spectators, Passers By from BOTH sides). Forfeiting, or suspending, a game for legitimate "Safety" concerns is a serious, but prudent, response if/when circumstances merit such decisions. Either are "Administrative Decisions" subject to review and potential, subsequent, modification.
Judgments on such decisions should involve consideration of the specific circumstances, the potential, and risk, for possible escalation and/or continuation or repetition of the behavior responsible. Such discussions, where possible, should involve consultation with appropriate Administrative personnel from BOTH schools.
However, the ultimate decision, as to the general safety of continuation of the contest, at that time and location, are addressed in NFHS: 1-1-6, advising, "The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game."
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You are under no obligation to finish any game if you feel unsafe. In this case, I think it was an isolated incident and the player was removed. What a sad statement about our society today.
Last I heard, he got up and was walking around.
Also: not a playoff game, just playing for a playoff spot.
In a situation like this, what are the crew’s options? Can they say ‘see ya, we’re out’ without repercussions? Or is there an obligation to finish the game? At what point does game administration become involved? If they walk, is it a forfeit o up to the administrators to hash out?
Genuinely asking. I hope I am never in a situation such as this.
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I put this mostly on the coaches. They must know they have a hot head playing for them and they are continuing to let him play. I would very much suspect he's shown this disrespect before, as it shown in the soccer incident. The win at all cost mentality among coaches is rampant and a bit disgusting. Certainly, not all are like that, but it seems to be much more common now. If I hear anyone moan about how this is just a kid or they shouldn't punish the rest of they players by removing them from the playoffs, I think i'll :puke:
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HLinNC. I stand corrected. I was not focused on the forfeit part of it. I was mainly stating I would not be making a decision unilaterally. The entire remaining crew would get a voice in whether we were to continue or not.
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At our game yesterday the security seemed triple the size we normally see. I wasn't counting the officers but it seemed like there were 2 officers per official when we were moving on and off the field.
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The thing is what about security at stadiums at school which have the press box readily accessible to anyone in the stands (IE At most, if not all private schools).
Any unauthorized person could run up to the press box if they have a beef with TASO assigned clock operators and a similar incident occurs? As clock operators, we are part of the crew as well, but it seems like to me, in the above situation, we are just as vulnerable as you are on the field.
Or if you are at one of the bigger stadiums, you could be taken down by someone when going down at half-time to get feedback from the R/crew.
No matter how small the chance, the chance is there that it could occur to us clock operators as well.
In closing, will this stop me doing a job I honestly enjoy doing? No of course not. All I want is to feel safe while doing the job I enjoy, is that too much to ask?
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The thing is what about security at stadiums at school which have the press box readily accessible to anyone in the stands (IE At most, if not all private schools).
Any unauthorized person could run up to the press box if they have a beef with TASO assigned clock operators and a similar incident occurs? As clock operators, we are part of the crew as well, but it seems like to me, in the above situation, we are just as vulnerable as you are on the field.
Or if you are at one of the bigger stadiums, you could be taken down by someone when going down at half-time to get feedback from the R/crew.
No matter how small the chance, the chance is there that it could occur to us clock operators as well.
In closing, will this stop me doing a job I honestly enjoy doing? No of course not. All I want is to feel safe while doing the job I enjoy, is that too much to ask?
What is your dress attire when you go to games? I would not wear anything that identifies me as an official. I'd try to blend in with the crowd if going down at halftime. Be aware when exiting so nobody can identify you as being the clock operator. Pretend as if you were a maintenance person or something.
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What is your dress attire when you go to games? I would not wear anything that identifies me as an official. I'd try to blend in with the crowd if going down at halftime. Be aware when exiting so nobody can identify you as being the clock operator. Pretend as if you were a maintenance person or something.
Usually I wear a TASO polo shirt and a nice pair of khakis (or other colored pants), in other words business casual. I also always wear my TASO ID, just so stadium/security personnel know I am authorized to be on the field/in the press box.
Given that this happened, I may change attire if I work a playoff game & next season. I have other nice polos I can wear to games and keep my ID in my pocket until needed.
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. Pretend as if you were a maintenance person or something.
LOL
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Pretend as if you were a maintenance person or something.
There is one small problem with that...I am not mechanically inclined ;D LOL
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Back to the incident. I am not an attorney, and I don’t play one on TV. The player was “arraigned,” which, I believe, means that he was formally charged with this crime, and he had the opportunity to enter a plea. Since he was released on bond, does that mean he pled “Not Guilty” and is awaiting trial? I know it is every citizen’s right to plead ‘not guilty,’ but, in this case - really?
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Arraignment is a formal reading of the charges against a defendant
No one in their right mind pleads guilty at an arraignment. And yes, if he posts bail he's free to go as long as he continues to appear for his court dates.
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Arraignment is a formal reading of the charges against a defendant
No one in their right mind pleads guilty at an arraignment. And yes, if he posts bail he's free to go as long as he continues to appear for his court dates.
Based on the clear video evidence, this guy’s mental stability was already in question.
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There is one small problem with that...I am not mechanically inclined ;D LOL
I had this image of you in the booth with this huge key ring on your belt,
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Arraignment is a formal reading of the charges against a defendant
No one in their right mind pleads guilty at an arraignment. And yes, if he posts bail he's free to go as long as he continues to appear for his court dates.
CLEARLY, this player needs some professional counseling, and perhaps the Court can provide that assistance. However, the School and coaching staff JUST AS CLEARLY failed to provide the guidance this student needed, as evidenced during both soccer & football.
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Back to the incident. I am not an attorney, and I don’t play one on TV. The player was “arraigned,” which, I believe, means that he was formally charged with this crime, and he had the opportunity to enter a plea. Since he was released on bond, does that mean he pled “Not Guilty” and is awaiting trial? I know it is every citizen’s right to plead ‘not guilty,’ but, in this case - really?
The state still has to prove he's guilty of whatever he's charged with and you darn well want that -- for him or anyone else. Whether everyone in the world saw it or no one saw it; innocent until proven guilty, due process, and all that jazz. He has rights and they must be respected, although he as an individual doesn't necessarily have to be.
There's no doubt he will be convicted if this goes to trial, which it won't. Any and all video of the incident will be admitted -- all it takes is 2 or 3 foundation questions from the prosecuting attorney to the individual who shot the video (it doesn't get admitted automatically contrary to popular belief) and essentially anyone on the field who saw the incident can verify what is seen on the tape happened. The Referee can testify and say, "yeah, I was hit" or "yeah, I saw him coming at the last second and was hit..." and its all done. There aren't any real applicable defenses to the what he's charged with (i.e. provocation or something else). Going to trial means almost sure jail time, more legal fees, and a HACKED off school district. So his attorney will recommend a plea deal -- likely a Class B misdemeanor, probation, community service, fine, and maybe restitution of any out of pocket medical expenses if there were any. The Referee may pursue civil actions as I discussed earlier (and I hope he does). To get the community service time or fine amount down, the kid may choose to spend, say, 4 weekends in the local jail, but I seriously doubt it will rise to anything more severe than that. There's too many other people in jail and if covid continues, that won't even be an option -- especially in that area.
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I hope the prosecutor has the courage and sense to get some jail time for this guy. They simply have to send the message that this type of behavior will have serious consequences, and no amount of ‘sorry’ or ‘mistakes of youth’ will let you off the hook. Jail time, fine, and restitution. Community service is simply not taken seriously by these kids. Yeah, I hope the victim seeks civil damages. Keep him in trouble long enough that no FBS team will have anything to do with him. And no hope of the NFL.
That is the message that needs to be sent.
Thanks for the obviously knowledgeable info, Joe. Yeah, reality may set in and he gets a slap on the wrist. Let’s hope not.
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And you wonder why officiating numbers are going down????
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and maybe restitution of any out of pocket medical expenses if there were any.
A question by the uninformed (and, thankfully, inexperienced): When you say out of pocket expenses, that, obviously, means any insurance - including TASO's, would take care of the costs above deductible (and other exclusions). But, if there is a conviction, wouldn't the insurance company(s) have cause to recover their costs due to a criminal act? This was no 'accident.'
Probably moot, because you ain't gonna "...get blood out of a turnip...," as they say. Can that be tied to future earnings (i.e., if he gets a fat NFL contract)?
Ah, just pondering. Just a totally ugly situation all around.
The worst punishment he could get would be total and permanent ostracization by his classmates and (former?) friends, especially his teammates, for screwing them out of the playoffs. Sadly, in today's environment, even officials are viewed as "the man," and any form of rebellion or retaliation against "the man" with even the most egregious acts of violence against people and property are supported by many elements of society. So, his friends and colleagues will probably rally around him - somehow, he got robbed. Sad.
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The worst punishment he could get would be total and permanent ostracization by his classmates and (former?) friends, especially his teammates, for screwing them out of the playoffs. Sadly, in today's environment, even officials are viewed as "the man," and any form of rebellion or retaliation against "the man" with even the most egregious acts of violence against people and property are supported by many elements of society. So, his friends and colleagues will probably rally around him - somehow, he got robbed. Sad.
Sad, but unfortunately true. The saddest part is that it seems more, "otherwise rational" people have become willing to actually "Buy into the BS" and ignore (tolerate, excuse, minimize) such behavior, which ONLY encourages more of it.
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Most insurance policies exclude intentional acts.
Not just internet fantasy, I am an insurance adjuster
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Any recovery for damages is likely to come if the referee files a lawsuit against the school district. They will have the deepest pockets and liability insurance to cover them. Given the student has some sort of history and was inexplicably still participating in HS athletics, I imagine there will be a settlement. The 18 year old student likely doesn't have any assets. I'm not sure if a lien could be filed against any furture earnings. A settlement will probably negate that. Wouldn't get much from someone whose career arc is presently trending towards "would you like fries with that" any way.
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I had this image of you in the booth with this huge key ring on your belt,
Well I do have a couple of key chains, but not that many keys to attach to them ;D
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Most insurance policies exclude intentional acts.
Not just internet fantasy, I am an insurance adjuster
Likewise.
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:thumbup
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any update on Mr. Garcia's condition?
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RGV President was our clock operator last night. Said he is doing ok, still some soreness but getting better.
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Just another update:
Texas high school football player arrested for attacking ref suspended from all athletic activities
https://sports.yahoo.com/texas-hs-football-player-arrested-for-tackling-ref-suspended-from-all-athletic-activities-033639209.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/texas-hs-football-player-arrested-for-tackling-ref-suspended-from-all-athletic-activities-033639209.html)
Well of course this was going to happen, but thought I'd post it since it is now out there.
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Another news story from what I take is the local paper there: https://www.themonitor.com/2020/12/14/uil-levies-punishments-duron-lejia-edinburg-high-referee-attack/
1) “I’d like to say that I’m sorry for what happened to my coaches, my family and to the UIL,” Duron said Monday.
No mention in this quote of an apology to the officials.
2) Mr. Duron reportedly received a 3 day suspension from the school. Is that typically what he would have received had he attacked a member of the school's staff?
3) Mr. Duron reportedly assaulted an official during last year's soccer season. (Although somewhat less violently than his most recent "hit".) And according to reports, neither the school, nor the official reported that to the state. Do you have any requirements in TX to report ejections and/or assaults?
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I don't officiate any other sports but yes we do for football, and I can't imagine other sports don't have the same requirement.
I will say though, that there have been instances with officials I have worked with who won't DQ someone, or even allow a 2nd UNS, so they don't have to do an incident report. That happened to me this year - B was losing very late in 4th, no chance of coming back, and would be eliminated from playoff contention. B55 (made up number) threw a kid down, getting him his 1st UNS. As he was walking off, he threw the ball at the U, and called the U a MF for flagging it. U and I both threw flags up on that, WH immediately told us to pick them up, and they weren't enforced. He said it wouldn't impact the game, would benefit no one by tossing him, and that was that. I still don't agree with it.
All that to say, even if there are rules for other sports, there's lot of situations and/or circumstances where desire to not have to fill out paperwork takes precedence.
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Another news story from what I take is the local paper there: https://www.themonitor.com/2020/12/14/uil-levies-punishments-duron-lejia-edinburg-high-referee-attack/
1) “I’d like to say that I’m sorry for what happened to my coaches, my family and to the UIL,” Duron said Monday.
No mention in this quote of an apology to the officials.
2) Mr. Duron reportedly received a 3 day suspension from the school. Is that typically what he would have received had he attacked a member of the school's staff?
3) Mr. Duron reportedly assaulted an official during last year's soccer season. (Although somewhat less violently than his most recent "hit".) And according to reports, neither the school, nor the official reported that to the state. Do you have any requirements in TX to report ejections and/or assaults?
To be fair, his statement could be understood this way: I want my coaches, my family, and the UIL to know I am sorry for what happened.
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I don't officiate any other sports but yes we do for football, and I can't imagine other sports don't have the same requirement.
I will say though, that there have been instances with officials I have worked with who won't DQ someone, or even allow a 2nd UNS, so they don't have to do an incident report. That happened to me this year - B was losing very late in 4th, no chance of coming back, and would be eliminated from playoff contention. B55 (made up number) threw a kid down, getting him his 1st UNS. As he was walking off, he threw the ball at the U, and called the U a MF for flagging it. U and I both threw flags up on that, WH immediately told us to pick them up, and they weren't enforced. He said it wouldn't impact the game, would benefit no one by tossing him, and that was that. I still don't agree with it.
All that to say, even if there are rules for other sports, there's lot of situations and/or circumstances where desire to not have to fill out paperwork takes precedence.
And why didn’t you tell your white hat to go kick rocks, or at the very least say something to your assigner after the game?
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1) I'm a second year official. I'm in no position to tell a WH how to run his games. 2) we are so short handed that personnel blocks sometimes aren't honored, so it's kind of a moot point, no?
What I took from it, was I learned that if/when I whitehat, that's something I'm NOT going to do.
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1) I'm a second year official. I'm in no position to tell a WH how to run his games. 2) we are so short handed that personnel blocks sometimes aren't honored, so it's kind of a moot point, no?
What I took from it, was I learned that if/when I whitehat, that's something I'm NOT going to do.
Naw, the WH was wrong. He needed to be confronted. At least a conversation after the game, plus a call to the assignor.
Question- why do you think your inexperience precludes you from questioning a call/no call? Main objective is to get it right.
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To be fair, his statement could be understood this way: I want my coaches, my family, and the UIL to know I am sorry for what happened.
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A harsh lesson we ALL have to learn to survive is "Self Control". Most are taught by our parents/family, some require additional help (school, coaches, clergy, family friends) the really stubborn among us need special attention (Police or even Correctional Officer) but sooner or later, we ALL have to LEARN, and the price goes up, substantially, at each level.
The rest of us get opportunities to help along the way, we can choose to help with the teaching, or let that pass to the next, more expensive level. Nothing teaches , reluctant learners as well as the consequences earned and paid, for past mistakes.
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Naw, the WH was wrong. He needed to be confronted. At least a conversation after the game, plus a call to the assignor.
Question- why do you think your inexperience precludes you from questioning a call/no call? Main objective is to get it right.
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For this specifically, because the issue wasn't whether or not it was a foul - he framed it as game management, there's nothing good going to come from it no benefit to anyone. not going to impact the game, pick it up. I'm not going to refuse to pick it up.
More in general - If we had a crew huddle for something, I would give my opinion if asked... if I didn't get a chance to give input, I absolutely would ask for a quick clarification, if I felt I didn't understand the issue/rationale, or ask to make sure we talk about it at the half/end of game.
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So if you choose to ignore a legitimate UNS foul. What do you do if he goes on to commit a 3rd or 4th UNS - ignore them too in the name of game management?
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I didn't ignore it, I flagged it. If he did it again, I'd flag that too. Disposition is on the WH.
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I didn't ignore it, I flagged it. If he did it again, I'd flag that too. Disposition is on the WH.
Maybe. But you arrived as a crew and you will leave as a crew. As a crew member you have the right and responsibility to offer input and accountability.
I’ve picked up crewmate flags before for various reasons, and always make it a point to talk with the guy after the game. I also invite my crew to talk with me about anything, and if they are not satisfied with that, call our assignor. The worst thing a crew can do is break the line of communication.
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Maybe. But you arrived as a crew and you will leave as a crew. As a crew member you have the right and responsibility to offer input and accountability.
I’ve picked up crewmate flags before for various reasons, and always make it a point to talk with the guy after the game. I also invite my crew to talk with me about anything, and if they are not satisfied with that, call our assignor. The worst thing a crew can do is break the line of communication.
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Crew "discussions" to address differing perspectives are simply part of the game, aimed at clarification. However, they should be held (as much as possible) in private amongst ONLY the crew. When necessary uninvolved crew members should help keep intruders away from the discussion. The discussion should be civil, controlled and never demonstrative and produce a unified conclusion. As crew chief, Referee has the final decision (on the field) ending any and all dissent.
After the game, in the confines of the Crew's privacy, discussion may continue to verify the accuracy of the decision. If questions linger, the issue should ultimately be reviewed by the Chapter Interpreter, who would decide the issue, and what if any remedial activity is appropriate and how the final determination should be shared with the participating schools.
Referees should encourage such discussion, when appropriate, to insure the full knowledge of the entire crew is being properly utilized to avoid mistakes.
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Crew "discussions" to address differing perspectives are simply part of the game, aimed at clarification. However, they should be held (as much as possible) in private amongst ONLY the crew. When necessary uninvolved crew members should help keep intruders away from the discussion. The discussion should be civil, controlled and never demonstrative and produce a unified conclusion. As crew chief, Referee has the final decision (on the field) ending any and all dissent.
After the game, in the confines of the Crew's privacy, discussion may continue to verify the accuracy of the decision. If questions linger, the issue should ultimately be reviewed by the Chapter Interpreter, who would decide the issue, and what if any remedial activity is appropriate and how the final determination should be shared with the participating schools.
Referees should encourage such discussion, when appropriate, to insure the full knowledge of the entire crew is being properly utilized to avoid mistakes.
I’m impressed. You used a lot more words to say what I said.
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1) I'm a second year official. I'm in no position to tell a WH how to run his games. 2) we are so short handed that personnel blocks sometimes aren't honored, so it's kind of a moot point, no?
What I took from it, was I learned that if/when I whitehat, that's something I'm NOT going to do.
Sounds like you learned, and took from, this exchange the "right" message. There's always two things you can learn from an experience; What to do should you run into a similar problem again, and what to AVOID in similar situations. Discussion, clarification, consensus are GOOD things, confrontation, especially "on the field" is NEVER helpful and can cause all sorts of additional UNNECESSARY problems.
Like arguing with your wife, in front of the children, NEVER a good idea.