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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: zebrastripes on December 20, 2020, 09:04:06 PM
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https://www.footballzebras.com/2020/12/coaches-behavior-in-the-ncaa-is-becoming-unacceptable-again/
I fully anticipate that the 2017 emphasis will once again be in effect for 2021 and this cycle will start all over again. It will continue until league commissioners and officiating coordinators stop kowtowing to these maniacs once and for all.
Matt Campbell's behavior yesterday and the lack of a foul for UNS were an absolute travesty. I am so sick of the pontificating about sportsmanship then seeing conduct like this go unpenalized.
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I was watching, and I felt dumb for a minute because I couldn't figure out what he was screaming and ranting and raving about. When I figured out what he was going into orbit over, I couldn't figure out why HE was so dumb.
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I don't recall any real pontificating over sportsmanship.
Coaches run the show and the conferences don't have the baws to do anything about it. It is a shame to see grown, educated, highly compensated men look like two year olds but here we are.
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I don't recall any real pontificating over sportsmanship.
Coaches run the show and the conferences don't have the baws to do anything about it. It is a shame to see grown, educated, highly compensated men look like two year olds but here we are.
See almost every CFO video.
What exactly is going to happen if officials start regularly flagging coaches? Are the coaches going to rise up and demand the commissioner get a new assigner? Each conference only has a couple bad apples - I would think the well-behaved coaches WANT the Matt Campbells of the world to be penalized. In basketball I have always been taught that if you let one coach get away with acting like an idiot, eventually the other coach is going to do the same thing even if he's normally a saint - especially if a couple calls start going the idiot's way.
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Pretty clearly should have drawn a flag. Maybe if his team was coached on how to correctly respond to a B player in the NZ, simply touch or respond to block him , then his team would have a real call to make? Looks to me to be a coaching issue not an officiating issue. ???
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Pretty clearly should have drawn a flag. Maybe if his team was coached on how to correctly respond to a B player in the NZ, simply touch or respond to block him , then his team would have a real call to make? Looks to me to be a coaching issue not an officiating issue. ???
Even Forrest Guump knew, "Stupid is as stupid does", but even dumber is ignoring (tolerating, excusing, accepting, condoning) bad behavior, which usually ONLY encourages more of it to deal with. Unfortunately, failing to confront childish behavior, ONLY seems to encourage more of it.
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I saw one game this weekend (NFL) where a defensive end jumped just enough to get the top of his helmet into the NZ. The center saw it in his peripheral vision and snapped the ball and got a free play.
In this instance the lack of a call was 1000% coaching. I can hear the conversation:
Coach: We are going to get them to jump; do not snap the ball.
Center: OK Coach.
Coach: QB give them a hard count but we are not going to snap the ball. Do you understand?
QB: Yes sir, we are going for an offsides and we are to not snap the ball.
Coach: Great, go get us five yards.
What the coach failed to say was "unless they jump into the neutral zone; then snap the ball!!!!!!!".
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That was his second tantrum of the game. He also should have been flagged for UNS after the targeting call earlier.
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That was his second tantrum of the game. He also should have been flagged for UNS after the targeting call earlier.
Which was also an idiotic reaction by him to an obvious call that was confirmed by IR.
(And reactions like that are the exact reason the NCAA will not get rid of the targeting DQ or go to different "levels" of targeting - fake tough guys like Campbell don't understand the importance of getting those type hits out of the game.)
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maybe apples & oranges but fascinating that MLB has its limits and everyone's pretty clear on what will get you run. and oftentimes the MLB manager is looking to get run.
Yet we rarely, or ever, see NCAA coach get run, or flagged when he has it coming.
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maybe apples & oranges but fascinating that MLB has its limits and everyone's pretty clear on what will get you run. and oftentimes the MLB manager is looking to get run.
Yet we rarely, or ever, see NCAA coach get run, or flagged when he has it coming.
Blame the assigners and league commissioners who bow down to these coaches who think they are gods.
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What exactly is going to happen if officials start regularly flagging coaches? Are the coaches going to rise up and demand the commissioner get a new assigner?
As the saying goes, "it" rolls down hill. Coach complains to commissioner that he got flagged, commissioner asks assigner why his coaches are getting flagged, assigner tells officials (either through grades, training tapes, or direct communication) to be more tolerant of coaches' behavior. At that point we have two options: do what our bosses tell us to and keep working or keep doing it and eventually not work anymore. Until somebody above us in the food chain actually backs officials for flagging coaches, it's going to continue and you can make your decision about how you want to deal with it.
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Yet we rarely, or ever, see NCAA coach get run, or flagged when he has it coming.
I don't think I've ever seen an NCAA or higher coach actually get ejected. Even Woody Hayes didn't even draw a flag for punching a player.
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As the saying goes, "it" rolls down hill. Coach complains to commissioner that he got flagged, commissioner asks assigner why his coaches are getting flagged, assigner tells officials (either through grades, training tapes, or direct communication) to be more tolerant of coaches' behavior. At that point we have two options: do what our bosses tell us to and keep working or keep doing it and eventually not work anymore. Until somebody above us in the food chain actually backs officials for flagging coaches, it's going to continue and you can make your decision about how you want to deal with it.
I don't think most commissioners are that ignorant just like most coaches don't act like Matt Campbell. I think the "fear of losing my schedule" argument from officials is mostly a convenient excuse to avoid taking care of business. We need to know our worth better than we do.
Money talks I suppose.
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I don't think I've ever seen an NCAA or higher coach actually get ejected. Even Woody Hayes didn't even draw a flag for punching a player.
Short of making contact with an official, NCAA rules didn't allow the ejection of a head coach for two UNS fouls until a few years ago.
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On further review, it turns out that Woody Hayes *was* ejected during his career -- twice, in fact. In 1971 and in 1977 both against Michigan, but still not for punching the player.
The 1971 incident (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6G4XolI2zQ) did involve him getting two UNS flags during the same tirade, but I think that was coincidental rather than an ejection by rule. He also apparently was ejected for punching a cameraman in 1977 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZyvWzpAHck).
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It's not a fear of losing your schedule because you flagged a coach. It's a fear of losing your schedule because you continued to do something your boss didn't want you to do. Whether that's judgement on fouls, mechanics, or flagging coaches. If you do something your boss doesn't like, you won't be working.
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(And reactions like that are the exact reason the NCAA will not get rid of the targeting DQ or go to different "levels" of targeting - fake tough guys like Campbell don't understand the importance of getting those type hits out of the game.)
2 levels of targeting is a bad idea because that is basically the old rule, and nobody ever ejected anybody. That's what will happen if they do 2 levels of targeting.
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It's not a fear of losing your schedule because you flagged a coach. It's a fear of losing your schedule because you continued to do something your boss didn't want you to do. Whether that's judgement on fouls, mechanics, or flagging coaches. If you do something your boss doesn't like, you won't be working.
And the only reason "your boss" doesn't want you flagging coaches is because he's too lazy to stand up to the coach even when his actions clearly are outside the bounds of acceptable sportsmanship.
Really pathetic especially from former officials who are such cowards.
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This thread reminds me of a small college game back in about 2002-2003 in Arkansas. Right before halftime, the teams decided they wanted to fight. There were flags all over the field, one of which was on the home coach for his actions. We finally got them separated and to their locker rooms. I was the first one in our locker room and the AD was sitting there waiting on us. As a first or second year college official thinking about some of my experience in high school football, my first thought was, "Oh great! Now we're going to hear it from the AD." We all sat down and the AD asked what happened. Over a few minutes, we told him our side of the story. He said, "Thanks guys. You can guarantee there will be no problems from our coach or team in the second half today."
We had no problems the rest of the game and I gained a great amount of respect for that AD that Saturday. If they would all take that approach, we wouldn't have to deal with things like this very often at all.
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This thread reminds me of a small college game back in about 2002-2003 in Arkansas. Right before halftime, the teams decided they wanted to fight. There were flags all over the field, one of which was on the home coach for his actions. We finally got them separated and to their locker rooms. I was the first one in our locker room and the AD was sitting there waiting on us. As a first or second year college official thinking about some of my experience in high school football, my first thought was, "Oh great! Now we're going to hear it from the AD." We all sat down and the AD asked what happened. Over a few minutes, we told him our side of the story. He said, "Thanks guys. You can guarantee there will be no problems from our coach or team in the second half today."
We had no problems the rest of the game and I gained a great amount of respect for that AD that Saturday. If they would all take that approach, we wouldn't have to deal with things like this very often at all.
I feel pretty strongly that most athletic directors would take that approach and do not want their coaches acting like lunatics on Saturdays. The perpetual fear of losing your job that assigners and officials embody all too often is really far-fetched. The idea that conference leadership is going to threaten you with your job because one of your officials had the gall to enforce sportsmanship is really ridiculous.
I guess it's a good thing I don't call NCAA football because no coach would get away with this behavior in my games. And it's funny, I have never been afraid to penalize misbehavior in the college basketball games I work - not once have I lost games or been threatened with losing games because of calling technical fouls on coaches. I have been kept away from certain coaches - mainly because assigners don't like to put their officials in a no-win situation - but it was never because I was "wrong" to penalize said coaches. I have lost games before because of mistakes I've made but never because "you T'd up that coach and he complained, so I'm taking away your next game."
Upholding sportsmanship should not be a controversial topic - it's plainly there in Rule 9.
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I feel pretty strongly that most athletic directors would take that approach and do not want their coaches acting like lunatics on Saturdays. The perpetual fear of losing your job that assigners and officials embody all too often is really far-fetched. The idea that conference leadership is going to threaten you with your job because one of your officials had the gall to enforce sportsmanship is really ridiculous.
I guess it's a good thing I don't call NCAA football because no coach would get away with this behavior in my games. And it's funny, I have never been afraid to penalize misbehavior in the college basketball games I work - not once have I lost games or been threatened with losing games because of calling technical fouls on coaches. I have been kept away from certain coaches - mainly because assigners don't like to put their officials in a no-win situation - but it was never because I was "wrong" to penalize said coaches. I have lost games before because of mistakes I've made but never because "you T'd up that coach and he complained, so I'm taking away your next game."
Upholding sportsmanship should not be a controversial topic - it's plainly there in Rule 9.
Nothing has changed, still the ONLY thing you can count on, from ignoring (allowing, tolerating, condoning) really BAD behavior, is having to deal with more of it. the response doesn't have to be an atomic bomb (except when that level response is called for) it can be incremental, but consistent. A cold look (like your mother's cold look) is a place to start, maybe a second one if necessary. then a PRIVATE face to face instruction, asserting that further examples will NOT be tolerated, if there is a repeat behavior, a hammer.
A hammer can be a flag (without further explanation or debate), or in rare cases when a response is excessive, an immediate disqualification (again, with no explanation or debate with the offending party). It's the responsibility of the School Admin, or Game security to remove DQ'd people.
Whenever possible have a crew member close enough at hand to witness all discussions, to support your likely necessary write-up.
Such behavior should NEVER happen, but when it does, stopping it "sooner" is ALWAYS better then allowing it to escalate.
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This is no joke. NFL Combine in Orlando. Training for Semi Pro Officials. One hour spent being told "Do Not Flag the HC" I finally had to ask ."When?"..The presenter was a bigger comic than I was ....."When he has his hands around your throat and you are down to your last breath. Maybe"
Second game, League VP following us up and down the field. DB intentionally stopped to try and draw a Block in the back ..Jumped up and cussed me to no end.
VP steps forward. "We cannot let that happen. No one's mother will sit in the stands to hear that all night." Next day a letter to all players, Coaches and Officials. "If it can be heard in the stands you are to eject the player or coach immediately. No warnings."
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Nothing works EVERY time, but, whenever possible allowing that initial comment to pass over your head, eliminates a lot of further unproductive discussion. if there's any further inappropriate response you can then, choose to act. Sometimes, a delayed, "THAT look" to the offending party can send an effective warning, that eliminates the potential of unnecessary escalation, or any further problems.
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This is no joke. NFL Combine in Orlando. Training for Semi Pro Officials. One hour spent being told "Do Not Flag the HC" I finally had to ask ."When?"..The presenter was a bigger comic than I was ....."When he has his hands around your throat and you are down to your last breath. Maybe"
Second game, League VP following us up and down the field. DB intentionally stopped to try and draw a Block in the back ..Jumped up and cussed me to no end.
VP steps forward. "We cannot let that happen. No one's mother will sit in the stands to hear that all night." Next day a letter to all players, Coaches and Officials. "If it can be heard in the stands you are to eject the player or coach immediately. No warnings."
What did say after "when?" ?
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Nick Saban draws 15 in playoff.
Upset about something, yanks mask off then goes in front of the Wing. Flag flies.
Didn’t appear to anything about the wing on his sideline, something else. But deep inside you know it was due to going in front of the wing about five yards on the field.
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Maybe it was something he said? ;D
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Look forward to seeing Saban's histrionics and correct UNS flag featured on the 2021 POE video as an example of a crew that had the balls to do what's right.
I have very little tolerance for coaches who are blowing their opponent out.
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Look forward to seeing Saban's histrionics and correct UNS flag featured on the 2021 POE video as an example of a crew that had the balls to do what's right.
I have very little tolerance for coaches who are blowing their opponent out.
"To err is human, forgive divine"...after enforcement of appropriate consequences, and avoidance of repeat behavior.
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See almost every CFO video.
What exactly is going to happen if officials start regularly flagging coaches? Are the coaches going to rise up and demand the commissioner get a new assigner? Each conference only has a couple bad apples - I would think the well-behaved coaches WANT the Matt Campbells of the world to be penalized. In basketball I have always been taught that if you let one coach get away with acting like an idiot, eventually the other coach is going to do the same thing even if he's normally a saint - especially if a couple calls start going the idiot's way.
While it is easy to understand why a rational person would think this, most experienced officials such as yourself know that coaching is like a brotherhood of doing no wrong. Rarely is a coach admonished by another coach, even when he's doing something clearly unfair or unethical. It literally blows my mind that coach A wants the game called in certain ways to benefit their team and while the coaches B-Z know this, B-Z don't seem to care because they believe that they will achieve their own advantage at some point themselves.
The only reason the OU coach wanted Campbell penalized is for the 15 yards it would have given him for THAT play. He DID NOT want Campbell penalized if it meant he had to live under the same parameters. Most of the other B12 coaches probably think the same way. Now, once they get on the rules committee and meet in a forum where minutes are taken and they are on the record, their views MIGHT change but we don't know what they say in private.
The other big consideration is what the conference commissions tell the supervisor of officials. Don't think for a second that the supervisor has the final (or, for that matter, a great deal of) say in the behavior of coaches. If the commission is going to get grief from any one or more of the school, the networks, fans, etc. they are going to tell the supervisor to tell the crews to back off enforcing whatever rules are being bitched about. After all, "no one shows up on Saturday to watch the officials."
The CORRECT answer to that is, "Everyone shows up on Saturday expecting the rules to be enforced as written (within reason) and fairly." Except, of course, the fans, coaches, ADs, etc. when things don't go the way these people think they should go.
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No one shows up on Saturdays to watch coaches act like spoiled teenagers, either.
The coaches write the rules. If they don't want the rules to allow us to penalize their actions there is nothing stopping them from taking it out of the book. They (i.e. the rules committee) should certainly stop pontificating about sportsmanship every couple years and how important it is.
And yes, I realize my opinion on this issue doesn't mean anything. I fully expect this to be a 2021 POE, strictly enforced for one season, then in two or three years we'll be right back where we were in 2020.