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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: JDM on January 28, 2021, 11:06:34 AM
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https://youtu.be/QnW_86nu4lU
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I don't see any foul by or against any of the visible team A players. Did not watch it all the way through, and Etref said all I have to say.
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If you are speaking of the slap to the head, rule is striking an opponent
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You could have a USC foul in some cases but not here.
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Happened once to me at a high school game. See-saw game to the end. Losing team (which had not won a game that season) gave up a late, game clinching touchdown. Lined up for the try. All of a sudden 2 Team B DBs were attacked by Inside LB. He lost his cool when they were yelling at him that his play cost them the game. Once we got them separated, sent all 3 off to the coaches for them to handle. Rest of game clock ran very fast.
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That may be the rule, but I think it should be changed. The whole point of 'unsportsmanlike' fouls are that they are, by nature, unsportsmanlike actions. We can throw a flag for taking a swing at the opponent, flipping off the crowd (their side or opponents) or opposing sidelines, but not for being a jackass towards his own teammates or sideline, with potentially player safety implications, if they got into a fistfight and started swinging helmets. (yes, I know the flag won't make hitting someone with a helmet less likely to injure, but as in taunting, it's supposed to be a deterrent to inappropriate behavior.)
Regardless of who he hit or took a swing at or flipped off, it should be penalized the same, because it at its heart, an unsportsmanlike act, regardless of the intended audience. Just my .02 and change
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If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?
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If you are speaking of the slap to the head, rule is striking an opponent
Under 9-1-2, agreed.
What about 9-2-1 / 9-2-1-a-1(j)? "Opponent" is not specified in the rule statement.
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That may be the rule, but I think it should be changed.
Regardless of who he hit or took a swing at or flipped off, it should be penalized the same, because it at its heart, an unsportsmanlike act, regardless of the intended audience. Just my .02 and change
Actually such behavior is NOT "unsportsmanlike", it's just stupid & childish and is something BEST addressed by a parent (or Coach). Because players all wear helmets, you can't grab the offender by the ear and drag him to his Coach, but YOU CAN ESCORT/DIRECT him to his Coach (after separating him from his target) and let his Coach (hopefully acting like a disappointed parent) deal with this unacceptable behavior, as the Coach sees fit.
Doubtful (hopefully) it would necessary, but if so, advising said Coach ANY repeat of such behavior, BY ANYONE will result in instant disqualification, isn't a bad idea.
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Al, you’re saying it’s not unsportsmanlike, but you’re going to force a player to leave the game and disqualify him if he does it again? How can you justify that? If it’s not illegal how can you penalize him for it?
“Coach what he did was stupid, but it’s not illegal. Now if he does it again we’re going to eject him, even though it’s still not illegal.”
This is a team issue and the team can deal with it. IMO, flagging the player in the video is looking for trouble. And I’m dang sure not giving a coach a mandate to deal with the player or threatening to dq him if it happens again.
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If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?
I don't disagree... maybe he should just be forced to not participate for a down or two? I dunno. It just doesn't seem right to me, that there are no specified consequences.
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I would hope, and expect, that ANY/EVERY Coach would NOT condone such behavior, nor allow such behavior to repeat. If so, I'm afraid the problem is much bigger than a player acting like a complete idiot.
Anticipating the Coach would take responsibility and INSURE his overly aggressive player would not repeat his behavior and accept that responsibility to effectively deal with his player, would be my primary objective.
However necessary, I'm confident that Coach, and the Officiating crew, would be able to reach a practical consensus to insure and GUARANTEE that behavior did not repeat and avoid ANY threat of continued, or repeat violence, by WHATEVER means necessary.
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If you flag a player for punching his own teammate you are penalizing the player that got punched as well. He done nothing wrong so why should his team be penalized?
Change the rule and flag it. What's the downside? If A's coach doesn't want the penalty, he'll decline it. ;D
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Change the rule and flag it. What's the downside? If A's coach doesn't want the penalty, he'll decline it. ;D
The downside is our focus should be on opposing players and not teammates. We should never have to keep eyes on teammates when there isn't an opponent in the same area.
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I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.
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I don't work the college level nor NCAA rule set. but I'm not inserting myself into a team problem. Someone on the staff probably saw it and can call in on the headset to somebody on the sideline about it if they didn't. You hear teammates jumping on each other all the time out on the field. Unless the're yelling profanities or other language frowned upon by my state, its a team issue.
Since I'm on the wing, the two players are beyond my speaking range. If the white hat wants to say something to them, they're in his zone.
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I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.
Well said. The problem with hypothetical situations is that everyone is able to paint their own picture, from trivial to extreme. As suggested, neither team is disadvantaged by such foolishness. As often stated, "One size NEVER fits all", so perhaps the most practical approach would be to simply interrupt such foolishness as quickly & quietly as possible and allow (and/or assist) the team parent (Coach) to deal with and prevent any further childish behavior.
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I may be wrong but there is no ambiguity in the rule about when a punch/kick is attempted whether it connects or not. Disqualification.
Now if you don't want to call this a punch but it was more than "come on 68 I am tired of your matador blocking" of as some call it a "Look Out Block" then let the culprit know that next time it will be considered a punch and out he goes.
Just saying.
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I may be wrong but there is no ambiguity in the rule about when a punch/kick is attempted whether it connects or not. Disqualification.
I guess you mean fighting?
Rule 2-32-1 (emphasis mine): "Fighting is any attempt by a player, coach or squad member in uniform to strike an opponent in a combative manner unrelated to football."
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If a player punches another player in the face, they are opponents. :sTiR:
You are right of course and I know this is NCAA but I would like to believe that there is some point where you disqualify a player for fighting even if it is his own teammate. The degree might have to be greater (jerking off his helmet and clobbering him with it) but I was just really promoting preventive officiating.
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I am flabbergasted that anyone would think that this conduct is anything that falls under our jurisdiction. As ugly, despicable, and selfish as it may be, it is simply an intra-team issue. Their coaching staff / school administrators need to address this stuff. We stay outta this.
I am certainly with others in decrying this type of behavior. During my high school days, nobody would dare do something like this. The backlash would be swift and certain. But it would be by coaches, administrators, and parents. Officials would not then, and certainly should not - and actually can't - get involved now. We simply have no rule authority to do so. And I, for one, don't want it. I've got enough to do.
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I am flabbergasted that anyone would think that this conduct is anything that falls under our jurisdiction. As ugly, despicable, and selfish as it may be, it is simply an intra-team issue. Their coaching staff / school administrators need to address this stuff. We stay outta this.
I am certainly with others in decrying this type of behavior. During my high school days, nobody would dare do something like this. The backlash would be swift and certain. But it would be by coaches, administrators, and parents. Officials would not then, and certainly should not - and actually can't - get involved now. We simply have no rule authority to do so. And I, for one, don't want it. I've got enough to do.
What he said. aWaRd
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I think we have two sides here arguing letter vs spirit of. The rule. By strict definition, do we have a UNS or even fighting here? Yeah, probably but why is this rule in place? It's to prevent young athletic and strong men from getting hot headed and getting into a brawl and injuring their opponent. I agree with those saying we should do nothing here except talk to these guys, remind them that they're on the same side and if needed, send them to their coach for a play to get this worked out. Now, if something like this devolves into something that is a spectacle and is delaying the game, that's a different story. Now you're upsetting the balance of the game for everyone, not just your own team. That's when I'd get a little more stern and think about flashing something but even then, it's a tough deal to award a team that was never offended by anything.
I agree, interpreting letter vs. spirit. But - where's the rule support for sending players off the field to their coach, denying them the opportunity to participate for a down or two? How is that any different than a formalized penalty (in spirit)?
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Let me first make you feel better because I retired this year and you don't have to worry any more about me flagging this type of issue.
But I agree with Bobby. Officials make decisions all the time outside the rule book based on preventive officiating and good sense. You ask a wide out to to let his tackle know that he needs to get out of the NZ. You warn a RB to stop the profanity he is directing at his blockers. How many of you have told a player that next time he doesn't let go of the jersey there will be a flag.
Everything is under the R's jurisdiction and player safety is number 1 no matter what.
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I guess you mean fighting?
Rule 2-32-1 (emphasis mine): "Fighting is any attempt by a player, coach or squad member in uniform to strike an opponent in a combative manner unrelated to football."
This is interesting. I know this is the NCAA thread, but the NFHS code is worded differently:
2-11: "Fighting is any attempt by a player or nonplayer to strike or engage a player or nonplayer in a combative manner unrelated to football. Such acts include but are not limited to, attempts to strike an opponent(s) with the arms, hands, legs, or feet, whether or not there is contact." This wording seems to leave room for applying fighting to teammates at the High School level.
FTR, I'm in the group that says leave this alone. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. If I happened to be close, I might tell them to take that junk to the sideline or something, but I'm not flagging it.
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In soccer, fouls can only be committed against an opponent, but misconduct (including violent conduct) can be committed by anyone against anyone. Players have been sent off for attacking their own teammates.
While there is no specific provision to that effect in football, I would penalize, and, if necessary, send off players for unsportsmanlike conduct against their own team (including fighting), because their actions are unsportsmanlike and bring the game into disrepute. I would use the unfair acts rule to allow me to do this, because no rule currently addresses misconduct against a teammate.
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In soccer, fouls can only be committed against an opponent, but misconduct (including violent conduct) can be committed by anyone against anyone. Players have been sent off for attacking their own teammates.
While there is no specific provision to that effect in football, I would penalize, and, if necessary, send off players for unsportsmanlike conduct against their own team (including fighting), because their actions are unsportsmanlike and bring the game into disrepute. I would use the unfair acts rule to allow me to do this, because no rule currently addresses misconduct against a teammate.
Well you could manipulate a rule to apply to a specific situation, or you could recognize the abhorrent behavior as a 'family" matter, and bring it to the attention of
the family member in charge (Coach) to effectively deal with "his" problem and give that family member the benefit of the doubt, that he will take care of it.
If that should fail, or prove inadequate , you may have additional opportunity to make an appropriate adjustment, you will be prepared for.
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While there is no specific provision to that effect in football, I would penalize, and, if necessary, send off players for unsportsmanlike conduct against their own team (including fighting), because their actions are unsportsmanlike and bring the game into disrepute. I would use the unfair acts rule to allow me to do this, because no rule currently addresses misconduct against a teammate.
Actually, the NCAA rules do have this: "No player...shall...engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning...to the image of the game." I'm not convinced that acts against a teammate are always excluded from that, although in the OP video I don't see an act that rises to that relatively high bar. But lets say that the player slapped retaliates and the two end up throwing punches until they are separated, and then continue to loudly verbally abuse each other until they are escorted out of the team area - isn't that demeaning to the image of the game?
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In soccer, fouls can only be committed against an opponent, but misconduct (including violent conduct) can be committed by anyone against anyone. Players have been sent off for attacking their own teammates.
While there is no specific provision to that effect in football, I would penalize, and, if necessary, send off players for unsportsmanlike conduct against their own team (including fighting), because their actions are unsportsmanlike and bring the game into disrepute. I would use the unfair acts rule to allow me to do this, because no rule currently addresses misconduct against a teammate.
Stay away from this. It's none of your business to penalize intra-team drama. Let them handle it. It's a victimless crime.
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Actually, the NCAA rules do have this: "No player...shall...engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning...to the image of the game." I'm not convinced that acts against a teammate are always excluded from that, although in the OP video I don't see an act that rises to that relatively high bar. But lets say that the player slapped retaliates and the two end up throwing punches until they are separated, and then continue to loudly verbally abuse each other until they are escorted out of the team area - isn't that demeaning to the image of the game?
So is a coach screaming at / berating his players and assistants on the sideline, but we don't get involved with that. A bit more subjectively, multi-color and/or wild haircuts, excessive face hair, hair hanging out under a helmet, exposed tattoos, etc., IMHO, are exceptionally demeaning to the game, but we certainly don't get involved with those, either.
As much as we might want to be, we are neither social police, nor are we the parents of these people (at least I would hope none of us would be 1) working our own children's game, or 2) have a child that behaves so boorishly).
Can't speak for other organizations, but, for UIL football (Texas), if any TASO official observes some similar behavior, and he/she feels compelled to do something about it, by all means, feel free to note the time, and send an incident report to the UIL following the game (and hope that it shows up on video). That is not only the official process, but it is one that everyone with UIL and TASO highly endorse. Do not be reluctant to use this process.
But, otherwise, leave it alone on the field.
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multi-color and/or wild haircuts, excessive face hair, hair hanging out under a helmet, exposed tattoos, etc.
Not to derail the thread too much, but there aren’t enough eye roll or face palm emojis in the world to accurately describe my reaction to this take.
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Stay away from this. It's none of your business to penalize intra-team drama. Let them handle it. It's a victimless crime.
Not sure that offensive lineman will agree... ;)
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If a player punches another player in the face, they are opponents. :sTiR:
LOL
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I agree, interpreting letter vs. spirit. But - where's the rule support for sending players off the field to their coach, denying them the opportunity to participate for a down or two? How is that any different than a formalized penalty (in spirit)?
I don't want to seem like I'm insulting your experience or ability here, so please don't take this reply in that way. However, the more you go through your career you learn that it's always better to NOT draw attention to yourself. When I went through baseball training, my VP told us "you're an umpire, trouble will FIND you." Do the rules explicitly say we can do that? No, absolutely not. Is it a really good way to do something quietly and not draw a ton of attention to us? Heck yeah. I mean, if a coach is going to get bent out of shape because I send a player off or refuse to take him out, I can't really do anything to argue it or enforce anything but I've never had that problem in my time as an official. Most of them understand what we're doing and why we're doing it.
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I agree, interpreting letter vs. spirit. But - where's the rule support for sending players off the field to their coach, denying them the opportunity to participate for a down or two? How is that any different than a formalized penalty (in spirit)?
If you feel "justification", in this situation is an absolute necessity, try this. Bring the player to the Coach, and suggest; his behavior (striking a teammate in such a manner to garner your attention), is such a peculiar (excessive, stupid, etc., erratic) behavior, YOU are concerned he may have suffered some "blow to HIS head", threatening a possible concussion. best to have him checked, AND take that opportunity to "calm him down and talk some sense to him" before deciding whether it's safe, or appropriate, for him to return to playing.
Sometimes common sense requires a little creativity, if and when necessary.
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I don't want to seem like I'm insulting your experience or ability here, so please don't take this reply in that way. However, the more you go through your career you learn that it's always better to NOT draw attention to yourself. When I went through baseball training, my VP told us "you're an umpire, trouble will FIND you." Do the rules explicitly say we can do that? No, absolutely not. Is it a really good way to do something quietly and not draw a ton of attention to us? Heck yeah. I mean, if a coach is going to get bent out of shape because I send a player off or refuse to take him out, I can't really do anything to argue it or enforce anything but I've never had that problem in my time as an official. Most of them understand what we're doing and why we're doing it.
Sending a player out is a tool to be used wisely and rarely. Agree with clearwall here.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I don't want to seem like I'm insulting your experience or ability here, so please don't take this reply in that way. However, the more you go through your career you learn that it's always better to NOT draw attention to yourself. When I went through baseball training, my VP told us "you're an umpire, trouble will FIND you." Do the rules explicitly say we can do that? No, absolutely not. Is it a really good way to do something quietly and not draw a ton of attention to us? Heck yeah. I mean, if a coach is going to get bent out of shape because I send a player off or refuse to take him out, I can't really do anything to argue it or enforce anything but I've never had that problem in my time as an official. Most of them understand what we're doing and why we're doing it.
Didn't take it that way at all... I'm here to learn, and I appreciate and respect all the different perspectives on this topic (and may others.)
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I agree, interpreting letter vs. spirit. But - where's the rule support for sending players off the field to their coach, denying them the opportunity to participate for a down or two? How is that any different than a formalized penalty (in spirit)?
There is no rules support for sending a player off unless he is ejected or disqualified. This will get you in trouble with your boss quickly.