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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: ElvisLives on April 26, 2021, 06:29:17 AM
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Please thoroughly analyze and offer a complete answer to this question, including all possible results and clock status, and indicate the most likely result (comments regarding the composition of this question are also encouraged):
Third-and-Ten on A2. With 0:15 remaining in the first half, QBA1, from near the end line, throws a forward swing pass to Back A2 who catches it two yards deep in the end zone. A2 runs toward the sideline and fumbles the ball in the end zone. The ball rolls out to the A2 where A7 recovers the ball (0:09). During the fumble, Tackle A8 clipped B8 near the sideline at the A3.
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Well, if nobody else bites, I will.
First, team B can elect to decline the penalty, resulting in 4/10@A-2, clock on the ready.
If team B takes the penalty, the clipping foul will be enforced with 3-and-1 enforcement with the basic spot on a running play being the previous spot, as the related run ended behind the neutral zone. As the foul is by the team in possession and the foul was beyond the basic spot, the enforcement is from the basic spot. Half the distance to A-1, 3/11@A-1, clock on the snap at the option of team B if team A is ahead in the score.
If team A is ahead in the score, team B will most likely take the penalty to force a potential safety. If team A is not ahead in the score, team B probably could not care less which way the half ends (it is highly unlikely that team A will snap the ball if the game clock starts on the ready). I'd guess they take the safest option ie. the penalty.
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Kalle, this came from a quiz on another web site. Where I was going with this is that the question is not well written, and is incomplete. We would need to know the score to know if Team B would have the option of starting the clock on the snap (default, by rule), or on the ready (B’s option), regardless if they accept or decline the penalty. Also, the lateral location of the succeeding spot following completion of the penalty can’t be known unless we know the lateral locations of the previous spot, and the spot of the foul. That is often overlooked, and can be very important. In this case, accepting the penalty would leave the succeeding spot in line, laterally, with the previous spot. If they decline the penalty, the succeeding spot will be at the hash mark nearest the dead-ball spot. Those could be totally opposite hash marks, which could make a huge difference, especially if a field goal attempt may be imminent.
The ruling totally depends on this information.
And, for the life of me, I can’t understand why these authors won’t make things the least confusing they can. Specifically, always separating yard line numbers from the team number with a dash, i.e., A-20, so as to distinguish them from player numbers, i.e, A20. Even better, always use odd numbers for player numbers (A21) and even numbers for yard line numbers, as much as possible.
C’mon, man.
Well, if nobody else bites, I will.
First, team B can elect to decline the penalty, resulting in 4/10@A-2, clock on the ready.
If team B takes the penalty, the clipping foul will be enforced with 3-and-1 enforcement with the basic spot on a running play being the previous spot, as the related run ended behind the neutral zone. As the foul is by the team in possession and the foul was beyond the basic spot, the enforcement is from the basic spot. Half the distance to A-1, 3/11@A-1, clock on the snap at the option of team B if team A is ahead in the score.
If team A is ahead in the score, team B will most likely take the penalty to force a potential safety. If team A is not ahead in the score, team B probably could not care less which way the half ends (it is highly unlikely that team A will snap the ball if the game clock starts on the ready). I'd guess they take the safest option ie. the penalty.
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Hih, the L-word converter made your reply a bit harder to understand at first :) Yeah, I think this is a good reminder to all of us who write rules questions - in this particular case there is little importance result-wise about the l-a-t-e-r-a-l location of the spots, but it is a good practice to always include those, so that when it is important, you do not forget to include it. And I fully agree with you about the numbering - I've started using both approaches, so players are A11, A33, etc, and yard lines are A-10, A-20.
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As someone who writes test questions for football, another sport, and who has been trained to do so professionally in the past, the first thing I tend to do with most test questions I see is to re-write them to improve their clarity and remove ambiguities.
Things I do/use:
Player numbers - use numbers above 50 where possible (so they can't be possibly confused with a yard line). A10 or B2 could be either, A88 and B56 can't possibly be yard lines. Where it makes sense to use numbers below 50 (e.g. for quarterbacks and kickers), use a number that is obviously different from any of the yard lines involved. e.g. if all the yard lines are single digit, I'll use A19 for the QB.
Yard lines - "A10" vs "A-10" (or "the A-11") is still too close and risks confusion. We use the format "Team A's 11-yard line" in our questions. Yes, it's longer, but it makes it much, much clearer as to whether you are referring to a player or a yard line.
Assumptions - this is a biggie for me, and one of my pet peeves with many rules questions. What assumptions have been made in writing the question? For example, if the question says "throws a pass", is it a forward pass or a backward pass? Does that make a difference to the question and the ruling? (It often can.) If the question makes an assumption, the question taker is then in a position where they have to guess what that assumption is, and that should never be the case.
If there are multiple plays in the down and there is a foul, which play does the foul occur in and does that make a difference to the ruling? e.g. a down with a forward pass play followed by a running play, on which there's an offensive hold. Is the hold during the forward pass play or during the running play? Does it make a difference?
These are things we often deal with instinctively on the field, but they do need stating in a rules question.
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As someone who writes test questions for football, another sport, and who has been trained to do so professionally in the past, the first thing I tend to do with most test questions I see is to re-write them to improve their clarity and remove ambiguities.
Things I do/use:
Player numbers - use numbers above 50 where possible (so they can't be possibly confused with a yard line). A10 or B2 could be either, A88 and B56 can't possibly be yard lines. Where it makes sense to use numbers below 50 (e.g. for quarterbacks and kickers), use a number that is obviously different from any of the yard lines involved. e.g. if all the yard lines are single digit, I'll use A19 for the QB.
Yard lines - "A10" vs "A-10" (or "the A-11") is still too close and risks confusion. We use the format "Team A's 11-yard line" in our questions. Yes, it's longer, but it makes it much, much clearer as to whether you are referring to a player or a yard line.
Assumptions - this is a biggie for me, and one of my pet peeves with many rules questions. What assumptions have been made in writing the question? For example, if the question says "throws a pass", is it a forward pass or a backward pass? Does that make a difference to the question and the ruling? (It often can.) If the question makes an assumption, the question taker is then in a position where they have to guess what that assumption is, and that should never be the case.
If there are multiple plays in the down and there is a foul, which play does the foul occur in and does that make a difference to the ruling? e.g. a down with a forward pass play followed by a running play, on which there's an offensive hold. Is the hold during the forward pass play or during the running play? Does it make a difference?
These are things we often deal with instinctively on the field, but they do need stating in a rules question.
You are 100% correct, although I give our fellow officials enough credit to distinguish A-33 from A33. But, that does, indeed, require discipline on the part of the author to know and always offer the correct formats, and discipline by the reader to know and always recognize the difference. Your yard line method is probably more foolproof, but it does, indeed, take more time to write (and read).
The most important thing is to offer all necessary information, even if that means offering more information than is always required. Like you say: Is a pass forward or backward?
In the original quiz question, they referred to "Tackle A8..." Really? Yeah, possible. But how likely, in the given type of down? We don't need player positions, other than "end," "back," "snapper," or "interior lineman," - and those only in certain specific circumstances, mostly to distinguish their eligibility, or positional restrictions.
Something else I failed to mention, but to which you alluded, we should always use the term "down," rather than 'play,' when referring to that unit of a game. There are always at least two 'plays' during a scrimmage down (the snap is the first running play, followed by whatever happens afterward). So, we need to use those, and all defined terms, properly, when discussing rules.
And you are 'right on' about assumptions. To make quiz writing easier, we need to define a few things - for quiz purposes only - such as the terms "grounded," and "downed." Those can be huge time savers for everybody, but they need to be defined beforehand, since they have no true rule meaning. Also, the reader should be told that the ball is dead in the field of play, unless specifically told otherwise. Etc., etc. Those things should be put in a pre-amble to every quiz.
Write on! (See what I did there? :))
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There are always at least two 'plays' during a scrimmage down (the snap is the first running play, followed by whatever happens afterward).
Actually, not always :) Play situation: 4/20 at A-2. Snapper A55 snaps the ball to A11 who is standing on the end line when he catches the snap. There is only one running play here, the snap.
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Actually, not always :) Play situation: 4/20 at A-2. Snapper A55 snaps the ball to A11 who is standing on the end line when he catches the snap. There is only one running play here, the snap.
Good catch! I stand corrected.
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Great point about using player position descriptions where numbers don't matter. This is something I've tried to work on in the last couple of years, and came from feedback from those who have to answer the questions I write. I'm a numbers person, but I now try to be mindful of those who are not.
Same with the idea of a list of definitions. We provide a set of stated definitions/assumptions that apply to all questions unless stated otherwise. It does simplify things a lot.
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Great point about using player position descriptions where numbers don't matter. This is something I've tried to work on in the last couple of years, and came from feedback from those who have to answer the questions I write. I'm a numbers person, but I now try to be mindful of those who are not.
Same with the idea of a list of definitions. We provide a set of stated definitions/assumptions that apply to all questions unless stated otherwise. It does simplify things a lot.
We're probably saying the same thing, but what I meant is that it does not matter if A77 was a "center," "guard," or "tackle," (as designated by his team) if he is an interior lineman. That simply makes no difference to us. However, if he is the "snapper," whether an interior lineman, or an end, it can make a difference, because, by labeling a player as the "snapper," that means he has established himself as such, and may NOT move to another position (even if he is also an "end"). If the snapper is an "end," and wearing a number other than 50-79, he is eligible.
What really annoys me is something like, "Tackle A77 is in the backfield..." We don't care if his team position is a 'tackle,' or whatever. If he is in the backfield, he is a back. Or, "QB A1 takes a position on the line..." He may be the team's designated QB, in this case, but he is just a "lineman" (perhaps an "end," but possibly an interior lineman).
Let's stay away from team-assigned position designations, and just stick with rule defined designations.
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I'm suggesting going further than that. In the original question, do we care what number the QB is wearing? It makes no difference to the question, so it can be taken out and reduce the number of numbers used in the question. In contrast, the number of the player who caught the forward pass is needed because of the eligibility rules. However, strictly speaking, that player is the only one in the question whose number actually matters, so the rest of it could be written without using player numbers at all. For example:
Third-and-Ten on A-2. With 0:15 remaining in the first half, the Quarterback, from near the end line, throws a forward swing pass to Back A2 who catches it two yards deep in the end zone. A2 runs toward the sideline and fumbles the ball in the end zone. The ball rolls out to the A-2 where a teammate recovers the ball (0:09). During the fumble, a Team A player clips a Team B player near the sideline at the A-3.
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I also prefer questions to have fouls, LOS, and dead ball spots be on major yardlines.
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I'm suggesting going further than that. In the original question, do we care what number the QB is wearing? It makes no difference to the question, so it can be taken out and reduce the number of numbers used in the question. In contrast, the number of the player who caught the forward pass is needed because of the eligibility rules. However, strictly speaking, that player is the only one in the question whose number actually matters, so the rest of it could be written without using player numbers at all. For example:
Third-and-Ten on A-2. With 0:15 remaining in the first half, the Quarterback, from near the end line, throws a forward swing pass to Back A2 who catches it two yards deep in the end zone. A2 runs toward the sideline and fumbles the ball in the end zone. The ball rolls out to the A-2 where a teammate recovers the ball (0:09). During the fumble, a Team A player clips a Team B player near the sideline at the A-3.
That is exactly correct. And, we could condense this even further, using your formatting:
Third-and-Ten on A-2. With 0:15 remaining in the first half, back A2 catches a legal forward pass two yards deep in the end zone, then fumbles the ball in the end zone, which travels to the A-2 where a grounded teammate recovers the ball (0:09). During the fumble, a Team A player clips a Team B player at the A-3, near the sideline.
But, we don’t know what to do with the clock, and we don’t know where the succeeding spot will be. We’d need to know the score, and the original succeeding spot. Like this (my format):
3/10, A-2, right hash, 0:15 (2), A=10, B=7. Back A81 catches a legal forward pass two yards behind his goal line, and fumbles the ball there. The ball travels to the A-2 where grounded A73 recovers it near the left sideline (0:09). During the fumble, A35 clips B99 at the A-3, in the left side zone.
That tells us everything we need to know.
With this information, there are four potential outcomes:
(Decline, snap): A, 4/10, A-2, left hash, snap (25).
(Decline, ready): A, 4/10, A-2, left hash, ready, (no play clock).
(Accept, snap): A, 3/11, A-1, right hash, snap (35).
(Accept, ready): A, 3/11, A-1, right hash, ready (no play clock).
Personally, I believe B would accept Decline/snap, to force a punt, in hopes of blocking the kick, scoring a TD or safety, or making a fair catch, or otherwise getting the ball in position for a field goal attempt.
But I’m not a coach. 😀