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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: lonnieritch1981 on June 09, 2023, 08:11:07 AM
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4th & 8 @ A35. A34 is deep in a scrimmage kick formation. The ball is snapped to A34 who kicks the ball to the B15 where B85 makes a successful fair catch. During the play B78 holds A72 at the A36 or B12 holds A13 a gunner on the right side of the formation he tries to make his way downfield. What's the ruling?
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Need a little more info. WHEN do these fouls occur? If they occur before the ball is actually kicked, then the Basic Spot is the previous spot. However, if they occur “…during a scrimmage kick…” (10-2-3-b), then they are considered as occurring after team B is in team possession, and PSK applies.
This can seem a bit tricky, because there is difference between “a scrimmage kick” and a “scrimmage kick play.” A “scrimmage kick” is literally that - from the moment the kicker actually kicks the ball, until it comes into player possession or becomes dead. A “scrimmage kick play” is the portion of a down that actually begins at the snap, and ends when the kick ends (by player possession or the ball becoming dead). For this question regarding Team B fouls during a scrimmage kick down, we need to know if they occurred before the ball was kicked, during the scrimmage kick, or after the end of the kick (and the ball remained alive when the foul occurred). B78’s foul could easily have occurred prior the kick, and would be a previous spot enforcement. B12’s foul most likely occurred during the kick (and, by philosophy, a foul against a flyer/gunner who is generally up to speed and trying to get past a defender is to be considered as happening during the kick, even if, technically, the ball hadn’t actually been kicked at the moment the foul occurred), and would be PSK. Fouls that occur after the end of the kick comply with Basic Spot/3 & 1 enforcement. The calling official MUST know the status of the ball when the foul occurred, and report that to the R.
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Need a little more info. WHEN do these fouls occur? If they occur before the ball is actually kicked, then the Basic Spot is the previous spot. However, if they occur “…during a scrimmage kick…” (10-2-3-b), then they are considered as occurring after team B is in team possession, and PSK applies.
This can seem a bit tricky, because there is difference between “a scrimmage kick” and a “scrimmage kick play.” A “scrimmage kick” is literally that - from the moment the kicker actually kicks the ball, until it comes into player possession or becomes dead. A “scrimmage kick play” is the portion of a down that actually begins at the snap, and ends when the kick ends (by player possession or the ball becoming dead). For this question regarding Team B fouls during a scrimmage kick down, we need to know if they occurred before the ball was kicked, during the scrimmage kick, or after the end of the kick (and the ball remained alive when the foul occurred). B78’s foul could easily have occurred prior the kick, and would be a previous spot enforcement. B12’s foul most likely occurred during the kick (and, by philosophy, a foul against a flyer/gunner who is generally up to speed and trying to get past a defender is to be considered as happening during the kick, even if, technically, the ball hadn’t actually been kicked at the moment the foul occurred), and would be PSK. Fouls that occur after the end of the kick comply with Basic Spot/3 & 1 enforcement. The calling official MUST know the status of the ball when the foul occurred, and report that to the R.
"B78’s foul could easily have occurred prior the kick, and would be a previous spot enforcement." - which now carries AFD, correct?
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Yes.
Is there any philosophical guidance (at any level) as to a preference one way or another if it (the hold) is close to being during the kick, or prior? The AFD change makes this a potentially very significant enforcement.
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"B78’s foul could easily have occurred prior the kick, and would be a previous spot enforcement." - which now carries AFD, correct?
Yes, the penalty includes a first down for Team A. Yes, it is a huge penalty. So, don't hold. :)
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Yes.
Is there any philosophical guidance (at any level) as to a preference one way or another if it (the hold) is close to being during the kick, or prior? The AFD change makes this a potentially very significant enforcement.
As always, we want all fouls to be "big," and, just like targeting, we want to be 100% certain that all elements of the foul are present before we make the maximum ruling. If in question regarding a defensive holding during a scrimmage kick play, make it 'during the kick.' But, if (for example) the 'pull and shoot' starts immediately after the snap, then there should be no question.
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Is there any philosophical guidance (at any level) as to a preference one way or another if it (the hold) is close to being during the kick, or prior? The AFD change makes this a potentially very significant enforcement.
Yes. When in question, the foul is during the kick. That is listed in the newly renamed “Officiating Standards”.
Also most if not all supervisors would say that if the foul is related to protecting or setting up the return, to make it during the kick even if the foul technically may have been just prior to the kick. That is not written anywhere, but is pretty widely accepted.
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Curious about this - guessing they renamed the Philosophies section in the mechanics manuals?
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Correct. They took a what used to be called philosophies, changed the name to “Officiating Standards” and put them in the actual rule book rather than just the mechanics manual.
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Yep. They wanted the coaches to know that the 'philosophies' were (in theory) universally applied, and not (in theory) subject to localized interpretation. Because the philosophies were in the mechanics manuals, coaches never saw them. Not that many will see them, now. But, at least, they have less excuse to not be aware of them, now. The name was changed to 'Standards' to help reinforce that they aren't supposed to be nebulous or subject to interpretation.
Changes nothing for us, except that we can now say, "The Officiating Standards direct us to [you choose the 'standard']."
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Your comments confirm what I suspected was the correct way to officiate this situation. You've all been very helpful, as usual. Thanks.