RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => War Stories => Topic started by: elewis023 on May 16, 2007, 10:03:59 AM
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After reading through some of these, I couldn't help but post:
Cross-over game where both teams are out of the playoffs, but had a good enough record for the extra game. Visiting team Coach apparently got shafted by some formula that had a lower ranked team pushed ahead of him. He is a very accomplished basketball official and I have officiated with him in a rec flag football league.
His star QB is running a sweep and keeps it himself. As he get close to the tackler, he swings his hand striking the player in the helmet. I keep pace with the play, I drop my flag at the foul. As I'm finishing the play, I hear: "Eric, how can you call that....You know he didn't mean it!!"
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Background:
Head Coach w/20+ years at school
Referee w/25+ years in chapter
Before the game they are chatting and the Coach says "You've gotten fat since the last time I saw you".
Without skipping a beat, Referee says "Now that we've established that, which 20 yd line would you like to kick from?"
Thought I would crack up laughing at both....... ^flag ;D
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Coach comes to me and says "Ref the defensive line is cut blocking my offensive linemen." "And.....the problem is?" "They can't do that!" I didn't respond and watched the next play ...... THERE WAS NO ONE ON THE GROUND!
"Ref they are cut blocking my offensive linemen!" "Coach, for the second play in a row there is no one on the ground." "I don't care, they are cut blocking!" "Coach do you understand that there is a free blocking zone?" "You mean there is one?"
At halftime I asked if we could switch sides. It was just too rediculous to describe.
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Had a varsity game as the R this year with one of the habitual "whinning" coaches in our association. First play, visitors havent even handed off the ball yet and all i hear is HOLDING! from the sideline. Then he spends a fair amount of time on my LJ about the opponent not lining up on the line of scrimmage. After a coaches conference for that, then he belly aches because we dont have a loss of down on ineligible down feild. The last play of the first half he throws a 50 yard bomb and kicks the extra point for a 28-0 lead and then gripes about wanting roughing the kicker. Going off the field he wants to chat. I figure ok because I have now decided it will be mine turn to talk. I listened to him and now it's my turn, rather LOUDLY. (I had told my umpire that I didn't care if we got cut or not but I wasn't taking it for another half.) I told the coach he ought to join our association because he can see better on the sidelines than any one of us 5 on the field. And I just pretty much laid into him about everything. Finally he told me I didn't have to holler and I said why not, you have been doing it to me for the last hour. A few weeks later I ran into him at a JV game and he and the other coach and I were talking and they were pretty much wearing out another official in our association. Finally I looked at the coach and said "You need to take back everything you said and thought about my crew." He just turned around laughing and then told me you got me on that one. Things have been good with him since!
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Long, long ago my father warned me, "Never trust people who talk to you about others, because they always talk the same way about you, to others dumb enough to listen."
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Long, long ago my father warned me, "Never trust people who talk to you about others, because they always talk the same way about you, to others dumb enough to listen."
Wise words from your father.
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Good words Al. I didn't trust him before and still don't trust him now-LOL. :)
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From a Player in a Semi Pro game..... there's a reason the NFL has an intellegence test
"White you've won the toss, you can receive the kick or choose to defend a goal." "We'll defer" "White Captain, you have two choices, receive the kick or choose to defend a goal" "We'll defer" "One last time White" "We'll kick" "White the choices are...""Hey I've played Madden 2007, we can defer." "Again, for the final time White" "OK,OK we'll kick" "It's not a choice White." "We'll defend that goal."
And to think that they were mad as hell when asked at the end of the half "White which direction do you want to kick the ball from?"
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Excuse me, but shouldn't the first option, to either team, include the choice to "Kick", along with choices to "Receive" and "To Defend a Goal"?
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Excuse me, but shouldn't the first option, to either team, include the choice to "Kick", along with choices to "Receive" and "To Defend a Goal"?
I don't believe that "Kick" is an option in professional rules.
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You are correct. Technically the options you choose from are designating which team will receive or designating the goal you wish to defend. Obviously, when you choose who is receiving you are by default also designating the kicking team.
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for what it's worth, here's how Coin Toss is described on an NFL rules site.
"The toss of coin will take place within three minutes of kickoff in center of field. The toss will be called by the visiting captain before the coin is flipped. The winner may choose one of two privileges and the loser gets the other:
(a) Receive or kick
(b) Goal his team will defend
Immediately prior to the start of the second half, the captains of both teams must inform the officials of their respective choices. The loser of the original coin toss gets first choice. "
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Actual wording of the 2005 rulebook:
The winner of the toss must choose one of two privileges and the loser is given the other. The two privileges are::
(a) which team is to receive; or
(b) the goal his team will defend.
So the captain, under (a), can select the other team to receive the ball, so that his team will kick.
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Exactly... There are only two choices not three.
Receive
Defend a goal
Personally I liked the "I've played Madden response" That.....was priceless !
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I've gotten that several times in youth games: "That's not how it is in Madden". I just smile at them until they understand the stupidity of their comment.
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I worked 5 or 6 semi-pro ("semi" sums it up) games last spring. If I remember correctly, under NFL rules, defer is not an option.
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I forgot about this comment we got from a visiting coach in a game last year.
Home team scores for the fourth time in the first half. On the try, one of their defensive guys plows into the holder. We of course throw the flag for running intothe holder. No lie, the coach yells, "why can't we tackle him, he has the ball". We laughed for an hour on the way home.
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Worked a game (line judge) last Saturday. After a try, one of the Team B players was yanking away at an opponents facemask, I threw my flag and separated the two (wings pinching in all the way after a try is a good mechanic - try it if you don't use it). As the B player is walking away, and has gotten some distance away, he turns around and utters a statement defining either me or the A player behind me as less than smart (with an F-word thrown in for good measure). Got to use my backup flag for that one.
Before the free kick I go to his coach (on my sideline) to tell them what happened.
Coach: Did you toss him?
Me: No, but there will be two 15 yarders enforced on this kick off.
Coach: Ok, but could you?
Apparently not the coach's most favorite player...
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coach must want you to do some paper work
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I worked 5 or 6 semi-pro ("semi" sums it up) games last spring. If I remember correctly, under NFL rules, defer is not an option.
You're correct, defering to the second half was not an option for the 2007 - 2008 season. However, beginning with the regular season starting in September 2008, NFL teams will be able to defer.
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A few years ago I had a head coach tell me after just giving up another score 49-0 that we wanted to kickoff. I told him, coach they just scored on you. His reply was, "If that jerk (the opposing coach) wants the ball he can have it". This was before the rule change so his team kickoff. Don't you know the other coach is throwing bombs down field to try and score again. I guess he was right.
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A few years ago I had a head coach tell me after just giving up another score 49-0 that we wanted to kickoff. I told him, coach they just scored on you. His reply was, "If that jerk (the opposing coach) wants the ball he can have it". This was before the rule change so his team kickoff. Don't you know the other coach is throwing bombs down field to try and score again. I guess he was right.
Has that rule changed? I thought it was still the decision of the team that was scored upon who would kick.
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A few years ago I had a head coach tell me after just giving up another score 49-0 that we wanted to kickoff. I told him, coach they just scored on you. His reply was, "If that jerk (the opposing coach) wants the ball he can have it". This was before the rule change so his team kickoff. Don't you know the other coach is throwing bombs down field to try and score again. I guess he was right.
Has that rule changed? I thought it was still the decision of the team that was scored upon who would kick.
Did you have a mental ooopsie? :o
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Has that rule changed? I thought it was still the decision of the team that was scored upon who would kick.
Did you have a mental ooopsie? :o
Actually, no for NFHS I am pretty confident in my interpretation of 8.3.9. "After a try, the opponent of the scoring team (aka the team that was scored upon) shall designate which team will kick off."
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This year already, one varsity game and one jv game:
1. Two requests for horse collar tackle penalties.
2. One request for 12 men in the huddle call (They called it on us Friday!)
3. One coach yelling at me as Umpire about the offensive line "not being on the line".
4. Wanting an illegal shift when the o-line went from a two-point to a three-point stance on the second sound.
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I've flagging teams for having 12 in the huddle when the replaced player does not immediately leave. I believe this is correct according to 3-7-1.
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[quote author=busman link=topic=2110.msg35272#msg35272 date=1221082378
2. One request for 12 men in the huddle call (They called it on us Friday!)
I've flagging teams for having 12 in the huddle when the replaced player does not immediately leave. I believe this is correct according to 3-7-1.
There is no rule against having 12 in the huddle. The penalty is because the team did not send the replaced player off the field in a timely manner.
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I had a great one yesterday from the coach (I'm U and the play dies right at my feet)
"How could you see a facemask? Can you see through bodies?" AND
"He couldn't have done it, he is the left end (pile ended a little right of center)"
I thought that was just stupid, but then a few plays later one of his players got hurt on a punt return and he was screaming at me for not calling a facemask that time. First - both side officials saw the tackle and described it as similar to a horsecollar, but they fell forward. Secondly, what would I as U be doing seeing a facemask 40 yards away from me right on a sideline (the opposite from the coach who was just as far away) at all.
But - since I saw a facemask in the game, I must be the guy who throws facemask penalties...
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Don't know why I did this. Wasn't proud of it ..... Don't know where it came from ...
Bench behind me is on defense. Ball at the 48. Snap, QB and running back coming in my direction in that classic option pitch series. Stepped back and then toward the backfield of the offense as the QB beagn to make his turn. Running back slightly ahead of the QB, last minute QB pitches the ball forward, running back catches the ball both behind the LOS ..... Coaches on my sideline go nuts ... "He pitched it forward, He pitched it forward!" "That's illegal, it's illegal" Tackle, marked the forward progress. Don't know where this came from ..... In a booming voice I respond "He was behind the Line of Scrimmage!" ..... crickets ....... The most silent I've ever heard a sideline ..... I wlked over to the Head Coach and said "I don't know where that came from, I apologize for my response" "Apologize hell, it's the only way to get our attention, that told us right away that you know what your doing and that you won't put up with any crap from us. It was a dang good call" I was stunned .....
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There is no rule against having 12 in the huddle. The penalty is because the team did not send the replaced player off the field in a timely manner.
If you have 12 in the huddle, doesn't that mean a replaced player did not leave immediately?
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If you have 12 in the huddle, doesn't that mean a replaced player did not leave immediately?
Not necessarily. You could have the substitute join the huddle, inform the player he is replacing and the replaced player leaves the huddle. It wasn't for very long, but you did have 12 in the huddle.
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Exactly.
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yarnnelg, I had a similar situation happen to me.
qb drops back to pass, is pressured, steps up and tosses the ball underhanded to a back,( the Utah pass), play gains 5 yds. Coach of the defense loses his mind screaming for an illegal forward pass. Not because the qb was over the line of scrimmage, but because he threw it underhand. He took a timeout to "discuss" the call. I let him rant, told him it was a legal pass, and went on my way. He however, was not finished. "You're f!@#$ing killing me!"
15 yd unsportsmanlike
Later in the same game, back on defense, A has 11 in the huddle. for some reason, the 11th man thinks he is should not be in on this play, and leaves the field as they break the huddle. Offense lines up with 10 men (7 on the line) and runs the play. Coach screams "too many men, they broke the huddle with 12".
He again calls time out to "discuss" the situation. I tell him that the player that left the field, was not the 12th player, but the 11th, that they ran the play with 10. He didn't believe me, and continued to protest. There was nothing left to say, so I turn to begin play again.
He continues "C'mon, give me a call, I'm begging you". ( Several snappy retorts raced through my mind at that point, but I thought it best to leave it alone). Then he came out with " This is absolute Bull****!"
2nd USC, coach is ejected. Had to get the game manager and the police officer to escort him off the field.
This was a game between 2 10 year old teams, and he was leading 32-0 at the time.
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Great role model for 10 year olds. I hope the league takes some further action.
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I had a coach (Middle School) last Tuesday behind 48-0 with a running clock (Mercy Rule)still calling time outs at 2 min.'s wanting to make sure he had the right call for his 1st string offense.
The other team was playing all their bench players at the time.
He wonders why he can't get officials who want to call their games.
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Loved this one. Private schools, Varsity High School Game. Tackle on my side in three point stance, lifts his hand to reset closer to the guard.... flag, whistle .....
Booming voice from the opposite sideline ... "He doesn't understand, He's from England!"
So I sent a message back via the Umpire and Line Judge ... "If I had known he was one of the Beatles I wouldn't have flagged him."
Message back .... "What's a Beatle?"
I'm getting old ......
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Hmm, I wonder what excuse the use for this foul in the UK? ;-)
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Last night close game. Visitors scored touchdown and two point conversion on a fake field goal (still can't figure out why you would burn your last TO in an attempt to ice the kisker on a try for point) 49 seconds left on the board for the Home team. Home team actually hitting passes on the sides and getting OOB on each play to stop the clock. Pass on the opposite sideline. I've got receivers in my zone and never looked over there. Head Coach asks... "Tell me true, did you see that receiver drop the ball on the other sideline?" "Never looked over there Coach" "Oh that's all right your wearing glasses, you wouldn't have seen it" "Uh, coach, you're wearing glasses too."
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Last Thursday night I was working a Jr. High game....3rd quarter, running clock, the home team scoring on every possession. Coach backs off and finally puts his 7th graders in. After a couple of sacks and a false start they're 3rd and 20. Next play we get a PF facemask and after the walk off I signal 3rd down...He said "It was a personnel foul, that's a first down" I told him nope, sorry it's not. After the game, coach came to the locker room and asked me why PF weren't 1st downs. I told him there are 5 fouls in NFHS that are automatic 1st, can you name them? He said well PFs aren't, I see now...so it's defensive holding....I just stopped him, and told him what they were.
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Friday night I talk to visiting coach who wants to know this a number of odd things. Let's me know tonight's game is really a playoff game because the winner will have an inside track on a spot in lower-level pairings. In a previous game the white hat screwed up and it cost them the game.
Throughout the game, there are a couple of rulings, including a USC on the opponent on a scoring play which he wants to take on the kick, but it's on A, so they have to take it on the try. Again, he wants to know if I'm sure because a previous referee screwed up and it cost them big time. On and on about some game I had nothing to do with and can't do a thing about.
Finally, after the game I talk to him and he compliments my crew. I asked what happened in the other game. Turns out the game went to 4 OTs and the R flipped before each and every OT period. Not only that, but this coach's team lost every flip. I asked him how losing a flip lost the game, in light of losing the first three flips didn't lose it. He said it was done wrong (it was). It just still hurts, to lose that game on such a mistake. He's still hurting.
Then, almost as an after-thought he drops this little nugget. "Really, it shouldn't have mattered because we let them convert four 4th downs on their final drive and gave up a 26 yard TD on the last play of regulation, then didn't cover right and let them tie it with a 2 pt try to force overtime."
I guess that didn't matter nearly as much as the coin toss that shouldn't have been.
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Last Thursday night I was working a Jr. High game....3rd quarter, running clock, the home team scoring on every possession. Coach backs off and finally puts his 7th graders in. After a couple of sacks and a false start they're 3rd and 20. Next play we get a PF facemask and after the walk off I signal 3rd down...He said "It was a personnel foul, that's a first down" I told him nope, sorry it's not. After the game, coach came to the locker room and asked me why PF weren't 1st downs. I told him there are 5 fouls in NFHS that are automatic 1st, can you name them? He said well PFs aren't, I see now...so it's defensive holding....I just stopped him, and told him what they were.
I'm guessing you are turning "roughing kicker/holder" into 2 fouls?
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We had a new twist of "twelve men in the huddle" Friday.
"They can't huddle on the sideline, then come in and huddle on the field. You can't huddle twice in one play."
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We had a new twist of "twelve men in the huddle" Friday.
"They can't huddle on the sideline, then come in and huddle on the field. You can't huddle twice in one play."
That would be a Double Huddle!
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To quote my 10 and under softball team I used to coach "Huddle, huddle, must be trouble!"
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Had a head coach tell me we had the wrong spot on a close 1st down play. I was over near the sideline after a timeout and he told me the player step out short of the line to gain and was pointing to the spot where player step out. I told him the player did stepped out where he was pointing but he had the ball stretched out to the line to gain. That's why the other team got the 1st down. Then he says thats fine but I just wanted to show you where he step out just in case and was still pointing to the ground :)
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We have an unwritten law. Mercy rule in effect, running clock. Team ahead with two timeouts left. Team trying to score one more time ....
There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....
Had one coach screaming at me after the White Hat had shaken his head to disallow any more timeouts in the 45-0 drumming of an opponent. "I called time out ! I called time out !"
"Coach you can yell all you wish, only one person on this field grants time out, and you ain't it" "That's absolute Bull IT and you know it!" FLAG ! "That's one way to get a time out Coach, want to try for another?" 10 year olds on the sidelines....
So after the mark off, he calls a long pass for his offense .... Pass thrown deep (for 10 year olds) flag down in the backfield. Pass complete for a touchdown .... coming back for the hold .... "Absolute Bull $ !!!! You guys are cheating !" FLAG "And that ends your day Coach"
Coach left .... and we stood in the middle of the field watching the last two minutes run off the clock. Assistant comes up to me and asks. "Why were we preventing from scoring?" "It's called sportsmanship, if you don't have it, we enforce it."
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I think you are walking in a minefield with that sort of officiating, just making stuff up and denying teams from their rights to take TO's. Sure, it sucks, and I guess you can get a bit stricter, but this is taking it too far in my opinion.
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We have an unwritten law. Mercy rule in effect, running clock. Team ahead with two timeouts left. Team trying to score one more time ....
There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....
Had one coach screaming at me after the White Hat had shaken his head to disallow any more timeouts in the 45-0 drumming of an opponent. "I called time out ! I called time out !"
"Coach you can yell all you wish, only one person on this field grants time out, and you ain't it" "That's absolute Bull IT and you know it!" FLAG ! "That's one way to get a time out Coach, want to try for another?" 10 year olds on the sidelines....
So after the mark off, he calls a long pass for his offense .... Pass thrown deep (for 10 year olds) flag down in the backfield. Pass complete for a touchdown .... coming back for the hold .... "Absolute Bull $ !!!! You guys are cheating !" FLAG "And that ends your day Coach"
Coach left .... and we stood in the middle of the field watching the last two minutes run off the clock. Assistant comes up to me and asks. "Why were we preventing from scoring?" "It's called sportsmanship, if you don't have it, we enforce it."
With all due respect, V, this type of officiating gives us all a bad name.
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I respectfully disagree. I would never deny a TO in a varsity game. I might try to quickly talk the coach out of it, or make him ask 2 or 3 times and pretend that I just didn't hear him. But in a 10 year old game...we are often the only rational adults in the joint. If it's 50-0 in a pop warner game, it's time to go get a coke and go home.
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I disagree, as well. That's dangerous territory right there. Varsity, I'm by the book. WV has no mercy rule. They can only agree to shorten the qtrs, and that has never happened with me. So it is what it is. We might do things like if it's a first down, be a little slower on stopping the clock.
Youth league, I'll admit. We roll the clock if things are out of hand. If we notice a team running the score up on purpose......we don't go looking for penalties, but we start to call it like it's a Friday night. If nothing is there, nothing is there. We don't make things up. But there better not be anything borderline (block in the backs, etc etc).
It sucks that people display that kind of sportsmanship, but you could definitely go another route in trying to discourage it rather than the way you did.
One thing we do on the time outs is simply pull our wing guys in off the sideline. That way.....sometimes they don't "hear" the time out called. By the time they turn around to look to make sure it's the head coach, shoot........seconds have rolled off the clock.
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I know I said I was finished with youth ball, but I got asked to do a playoff game, so I figured what the heck.
Then this...
K is leading by 4 pts late in the 4th qtr. They are forced to punt (which, I guess is why I am using K instead of A, but you knew that already).
K's punt is blocked, the ball never crosses the neutral zone, is picked up by a K player and advanced past the line to gain, for a first down.
R's coach disgrees I explain to him that any K player can recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance.
He doesn't believe me. I restate the rule.
He protests. (In this league coaches can protest on the spot, pay a $50 fee to the League and it has to be settled right then and there). We get the game administrator, he gathers the money from his coaches and pays the $50, I go get the rule book, and show him the rule.
Coach says "I've been coaching in this league for 10 years, that must be a new rule. I've never seen that before."
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Ah, I had a new one Friday night. QB drops back to pass and rolls to my side. I'm keying on the tight end, who gets downfield, then one of the linebackers grabs him by the shoulder pads and throws him to the ground. QB has to run for it, and picks up a couple. I report the hold to the WH, then turn around to explain it to the coach, and the coach says "but my guy was 5 yards downfield!"
"Coach, it doesn't matter how far downfield he is, he still can't grab a guy a throw him down."
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It's hard to tell from your description, but it all depends what the Tight End was doing downfield whether the LB can "grabs him by the shoulder pads and throws him to the ground". NF: 2.3.5.b, "A defensive player may also: push pull or ward off an opponent in an actual attempt to get at the runner or a loose ball if such contact is not pass interference, a personal foul or illegal use of the hands."
If the LB was attempting to get to the QB rolling out, and the TE was between the LB and the QB the contact may have been legal. If the TE was moving away from the LB, as a receiver, then there is a foul.
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He wasn't trying to make a play on the QB - he had dropped back into zone coverage. Still, the "he was more than five yards downfield" just killed me. Coach, on Sundays, illegal contact can only happen at least five yards downfield, so i would be a flag then, too...
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I know I said I was finished with youth ball, but I got asked to do a playoff game, so I figured what the heck.
Then this...
K is leading by 4 pts late in the 4th qtr. They are forced to punt (which, I guess is why I am using K instead of A, but you knew that already).
K's punt is blocked, the ball never crosses the neutral zone, is picked up by a K player and advanced past the line to gain, for a first down.
R's coach disgrees I explain to him that any K player can recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance.
He doesn't believe me. I restate the rule.
He protests. (In this league coaches can protest on the spot, pay a $50 fee to the League and it has to be settled right then and there). We get the game administrator, he gathers the money from his coaches and pays the $50, I go get the rule book, and show him the rule.
Coach says "I've been coaching in this league for 10 years, that must be a new rule. I've never seen that before."
Surely you get some of that $50. ;D 8)
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Nope. Fines (for ejections, unsportsmanlike, etc) and protest fees go into a fund that the Association uses to award scholarships to former players and cheerleaders.
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What do the 22 players on the field, and the 20 or more substitutes on each sideline do while the adults are going through the "dance" of securing a rule book, looking up a rule
(which most likely involves several different rule references) to cover some situation that the adult participants saw from completely different perspectives?
That may be a league procedure that would apply when you have parent volunteers acting as officials, but makes no sense when you hire professional officials.
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In this case it was treated as an extended water break. Initially, the teams were out on the field, but as the time wore on, they started to jaw at each other so they were sent to the sidelines.
I agree, Al, I don't like the procedure, and it is not one that I would ever implement were I the commissioner, however, the rule is in place at present, so it had to be followed.
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We have an unwritten law. Mercy rule in effect, running clock. Team ahead with two timeouts left. Team trying to score one more time ....
There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....
Had one coach screaming at me after the White Hat had shaken his head to disallow any more timeouts in the 45-0 drumming of an opponent. "I called time out ! I called time out !"
"Coach you can yell all you wish, only one person on this field grants time out, and you ain't it" "That's absolute Bull IT and you know it!" FLAG ! "That's one way to get a time out Coach, want to try for another?" 10 year olds on the sidelines....
So after the mark off, he calls a long pass for his offense .... Pass thrown deep (for 10 year olds) flag down in the backfield. Pass complete for a touchdown .... coming back for the hold .... "Absolute Bull $ !!!! You guys are cheating !" FLAG "And that ends your day Coach"
Coach left .... and we stood in the middle of the field watching the last two minutes run off the clock. Assistant comes up to me and asks. "Why were we preventing from scoring?" "It's called sportsmanship, if you don't have it, we enforce it."
You did this??? Coaches sometimes call time outs in these situations to get their subs in. You have no idea why they're calling it, but they're rarely rubbing it in. It is none of your business why they need time outs or how much they want to score.
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I respectfully disagree. I would never deny a TO in a varsity game. I might try to quickly talk the coach out of it, or make him ask 2 or 3 times and pretend that I just didn't hear him. But in a 10 year old game...we are often the only rational adults in the joint. If it's 50-0 in a pop warner game, it's time to go get a coke and go home.
That's none of our business. He may be using time outs to get subs in. He may be using them to give his kids a break in the heat. But ultimately, it's none of our business what he's calling them for.
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Lighten up Harry. The 2 posts that you have responded to are 1) youth league, which most of the time has clueless coaches and 2) 45-0 and 50-0 blowouts that need concluded as quickly as possible. I have heard the excuse before about needing to get subs in and quite frankly, that's BS. With the score like it is and usually limited numbers of players, the "coach" has had ample opportunities to get all his subs in. I have done similar to yarnnelg and blindref757, have not felt badly and was often commended.
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Lighten up Harry. The 2 posts that you have responded to are 1) youth league, which most of the time has clueless coaches and 2) 45-0 and 50-0 blowouts that need concluded as quickly as possible. I have heard the excuse before about needing to get subs in and quite frankly, that's BS. With the score like it is and usually limited numbers of players, the "coach" has had ample opportunities to get all his subs in. I have done similar to yarnnelg and blindref757, have not felt badly and was often commended.
I don't think I'm being overly serious about this. I just truly believe that it's none of our business to get involved in how coaches want to use time outs. The conversation that the official above had is beyond what we're supposed to be doing. It's not BS that coaches want to get their subs in. I've had to deal with these situations a few times in my short career. There've been a few game where coaches have called time out when they realize they will not get their subs in correctly. In some of those cases the team has gotten hit with illegal substitution penalties because they screwed up the substitution. In another case, the winning team didn't want us to kill the clock because it was a rare opportunity to allow his subs to play. And they didn't run up the score. The game went 7-7 the rest of the way including a few turn overs.
I understand that officials are concerned with sportsmanship. Sportsmanship is part of the rules, but it's also none of our business to tell the coaches how to coach and to deny them rights bestowed by the rules. Time outs are the ultimate right.
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Harry and JJ,
You are both right. I have given extended time outs during blowouts so that the coaches could come in and get their subs lined up and a little coaching carried out.
However, I have also seen a hold when a coach calls a timeout in a blowout and then coaches his starters concerning a pass or trick play.
This using our brains. If the coaches are going to work with subs, let them. If they are going to do something to demean their opponent they must carry out the play perfectly. No I will not keep a coach from calling a timeout but I will know what he is doing.
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I can't argue with what you say, Harry, but you might also consider that not all coaches at the youth football level, always, have best intentions in mind. The requirements that all players play a certain number of downs is not intended to allow coaches to get their secondary players into the game, when it's long been decided.
Unfortunately, there are times when the officials are the only clear thinking adults present and rational, mature judgment needs to be applied. When such a situation arises, it has absolutely nothing to do with, "it's for the kids" and is all about some adult with an axe to grind, an ego to polish or to cover up for not allowing his secondary players to play meaningful downs.
In most situations, Time outs are the exclusive decision of coaches and we no input in how or when they are used, nor should we want to get involved. However, when you are certain they are being used to abuse a situation, you have to decide whether you are going to abett the abuse. Of course you have to be willing to defend your actions, but when you're right, doing what's right usually has less consequence that allowing something that's obviously wrong to go forward. It boils down to you making a management decision, that may not appeal to everyone on circumstances they may be unique to the situation you are dealing with.
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I enjoy being raked over the coals ....
These are not times in which wanna be John Gruden's are trying to get their last nose pickers on the field. These are times in which the coaches are hell bent on trying to rack up that one last score before the game ends. The majority of the time we get a thank you from the Administrators and sometimes all of the Coaches. I've heard the Coach in question finally give up and tell his players, "They aren't going to let us score so take a knee and end it ..." We've had White Hats and Umpires openly discuss who will throw the holding flag to stop that last long pass with seconds to go and a 50-0 score on the board.
If playoff spots were tabulated by points scored, then I'd be against our trying to implement sportsmanship .... but just to rub someone's nose in it .... give me a break.
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Tough spot here. I agree with everyone.
Somehow, though I keep thinking of this: in situations like the ones we're describing, the kids are going to learn some lesson, whether we want them to or not. By trying to step in and control the progress of the game -- even though I would be doing it for the right reason -- I'm afraid that I might unwittingly teach them that sportsmanship is something to be externally enforced rather than something that is an outgrowth of one's own character.
Of course, in other settings we enforce appropriate sportsmanship, but usually with regard to the specific actions of an individual, not as an effort to force an entire team to behave in some manner or another.
'Tis a conundrum. I believe that I shall ponder it further, while calling upon the assistance of the sacred essence of the blessed hops.
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More importantly, who gets the 50 bucks?
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Tough spot here. I agree with everyone.
Somehow, though I keep thinking of this: in situations like the ones we're describing, the kids are going to learn some lesson, whether we want them to or not. By trying to step in and control the progress of the game -- even though I would be doing it for the right reason -- I'm afraid that I might unwittingly teach them that sportsmanship is something to be externally enforced rather than something that is an outgrowth of one's own character.
Of course, in other settings we enforce appropriate sportsmanship, but usually with regard to the specific actions of an individual, not as an effort to force an entire team to behave in some manner or another.
'Tis a conundrum. I believe that I shall ponder it further, while calling upon the assistance of the sacred essence of the blessed hops.
I always call on the sacred essence of the blessed hops.
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It's one thing to call the game closer to the rule book than is usual for that level of play, it is quite another to be manufacturing fouls because your sense of sportsmanship is offended. I agree with whomever posted it earlier... this kind of officiating makes the rest of us look just as bad as you.
There shall be no allowed timeouts used and there shall be no more scores ....... It's amazing how many holds suddenly appear ....
In our area, a person using this "law" would fall under a different "law" - Thou shalt not work in this league again.
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As I've never thrown a flag on any manufactured call .... I report it as I've seen it done. My flags come out for a clear reason .... I let the White Hat take the gruff for what I see as phantom calls ....
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Not to try and bring up the dead horse for more beating, but just wanted to throw my 2 pennies in. (Feel free to tell me that I'm due some change back. :))
Fortunately for us in VA, we did institute a mercy rule a few years back. In the second half, if the game reaches a 35-point or more lead, we go to a running clock (only times the clock stops are for a score, a time out, and injuries, IIRC). Now, we have been known in the last couple minutes of those 31-0 games to make sure that they player's forward progress was stopped in bounds. I've also had white hats tell me "let me stop the clock for first downs" instead of killing the clock immediately as we normally do, and we've been known to walk the ball in to the umpire for him to set it rather than toss it in using the triangle to relay it. I can't say I've ever seen a phantom foul called, though I've heard of them, though, and I'll confess that I've thought about it but never done it.
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As I've never thrown a flag on any manufactured call .... I report it as I've seen it done. My flags come out for a clear reason ....
I used to have the problem of never getting them out at all:
Early in my first season at UK senior level I was working LJ. Up until that point I had spent most of my time as Umpire and wasn't 100% comfortable back on the wing. The home team were getting thrashed pretty badly and had spent most of their time going three and out.
During the course of the game the offensive coach on my sideline offered to lend me his clipboard and play book if I let him borrow my flag and whistle on the grounds that we would both get more use out of them if we swapped... LOL
As it happened I saw him again at the end of the season when I was again LJ on his side and he shook my hand at the end of the game and said that I had called a good game, but hoped I would be heading back into the middle soon "where you like to be". What a lovely backhanded compliment :)
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Sounds like the coach was Irish. Being able to, "tell someone to go to hell, and make them look forward to taking the trip" is a skill reserved for the Irish.
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I was officiating a youth league game (7 & 8 yr. olds) and one of the teams is from one of the reservations out here in AZ. They barely have enough money to purchase equipment, but these kids LOVE the game. The team they were playing was from the more wealthy part of the valley and were ahead by four or five touchdowns at the end of the fourth quarter. The coach from the wealthier team called a timeout with less than a minute left in the game. At first I rolled my eyes...it's 95 degrees out here and you wanna prolong the agony for these kids!
But then the coach did something I will remember forever. His team was on defense. He came out to speak to all of us officials and told us he instructed his players not to tackle the runner of the Native American team. And if they did could we please throw a flag and make up something to give them another chance. We (the crew) kinda chuckled but agreed.
The next play the Native team handed the ball to the runner and he ran his heart out while the kids on defense chased after him pretending to trip and stumble all the way. When the runner crossed the goal line I rang up the touchdown. The other 10 players on offense ran down the field and dogpiled the runner in the endzone. the game ended, and the coach for the Native team walked over to the other coach and thanked him.
The score didn't matter to these kids...they played because they love the game. They will always remember the touchdown they scored on that one Saturday!
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Had similar situation in a varsity game, without the score. At halftime, the home team was leading 65-0. (As Umpire, I'd already made the post-score 60-yard dash 10 times!) At halftime, the home coach busts into our locker room and literally begs us to start throwing flags on his team to slow them down so they won't score again. We politely said we couldn't make up fouls, but we appreciated how he felt. His was a fairly affluent Catholic school while the visitor was a city team made up of players their coach told me spoke 8 different native languages amonst them.
After the half, we noticed that while the home defense still played tough, the home offense's runner would run into the ground right after crossing the LOS. They never made another first down, and we did what we could by keeping the clock running. I'll never forget how hurt the home coach was at the thought that his team might be poisoning the love of the game for the opponents -- class guy.
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Heck of a lot better than mine on the weekend.
Youth league 9 man with some modified rules. Kicks have no returns, if caught in the air the return team gets 10 yards advantage, if off the ground, they get it where they pick it up (or first touch it if that spot is worse)
The best vs the worst in the area, and shortly before halftime they are up 33-0.
We have 'Mercy Rule' for the clock above 28 points difference in this league. The clock then only stops for injuries and team time outs.
With about 20 sec left we have a punt from the losing team, and then half time is called. The winning coach starts flipping out that the clock should have stopped and his team gets the ball again.
His argument - 'The clock stops when a runner goes OOB - even in 'Mercy Rules' '. Which is untrue, AND - it was a kick caught in the air and declared dead (sort of like a fair catch), so even if it was how we ran the clock it wouldn't apply in the situation.
Then came 'It's not about running up the score.', but I have a hard time figuring out why he would NEED the ball again with under 20 seconds.
Left a bad taste in my mouth.
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To quote Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does (or in this case, says)"
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Great role model for 10 year olds. I hope the league takes some further action.
In a pre-atom (8-9 -year olds) league I once officiated, the league allowed the coaches to be on the field. After the end of one really botched play, this one hot-head coach starts droping f-bombs AT HIS OWN KIDS loud enough for everyone to hear. I turfed the coach toute suite.
"What did I do?"
"Coach, you're swearing at 9-year-olds, and loud enough the fans can hear."
"I can F-ing yell at my own f-ing team!"
"Not anymore, coach."
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We've had White Hats and Umpires openly discuss who will throw the holding flag to stop that last long pass with seconds to go and a 50-0 score on the board.
This has to be the most offensive thing I've seen from an official, in any sport, in my career.
I think you - and your peers - need to re-evalute your duties.
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This has to be the most offensive thing I've seen from an official, in any sport, in my career.
I think you - and your peers - need to re-evalute your duties.
For sure!! Why would you call holding? At least call something that includes the loss of down provision!! ;D
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For sure!! Why would you call holding? At least call something that includes the loss of down provision!! ;D
Jaybird!!!!
Be reverent!!!!
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Doing things like that (the phantom holding calls on a team during a blowout) take us out of the realm of ensuring safety and fairness and move us into the realm of punishing boorish behavior. It's not our job to punish people for being merciless - even in Connecticut where I hear there is a rule that fines the coach for running up the score. Their fine is assessed by the state, not the officials on the field.
Stick with the tasks you ARE given and stop trying to change a coaches' moral compass. It wouldn't work anyway as their compass is permanently askew. LOL
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Sometimes the integrity of the game requires "upholding", of course what you do involves your judgment of what constitutes integrity of the game which may not be the same for everybody.
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The main problem I have with phantom calls is that you're calling a foul on an innocent person. Explain to me how a phantom call - because of what the coach wants - is teaching the player who got flagged sportsmanship? All it is teaching them is that it doesn't matter how "clean" they play the game, they're going to get flagged anyway. So why should they bother "keeping it clean"?
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(http://theroadshowversion.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/mommiedearest.jpg)
NO PHANTOM CALLS! EVEAHHH!
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NO PHANTOM CALLS! EVEAHHH!
Or, alternately, there's a wight way and a wrong way?
:drums
I'll be here all season folks.
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High School varsity game Friday night.
A coach asked our R for a measurement of his bean bag after the R bagged the QB's spot for a pass a few yards past the line of scrimmage....
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OK, THAT one is a definite "LOLWUT?" moment. LOL
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Great "Mouths of Coaches" moment this past friday. Rivalry game and they REALLY don't like each other.
A36 is hit at the sideline and winds up out of bounds at about B's 20 along with B22. As A36 is attemting to get up off the ground, B22 pushes him back to the ground. I flag him for a PF.
B's head coach is way at the other end of the team box, so I give the info to the H so that he can relay the info to B's head coach when he gets a chance.
A B assistant standing right there gets visibly upset when he hears that the foul was on B22 and starts yelling at the both of us that "We don't even have a #22, how in the hell can you call that (and I have no doubt that the coach saw the entire thing, as it happened about 6 yards from where he was standing) We don't have a 22."
So then I pointed out B22 (who was standing at about the numbers) to the coach, and said "22 is right there coach."
He just hung his head in defeat. It was a beautiful moment.
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I've gotten to the point where anything out of an assistant's mouth is ignored unless it falls under USC rules. We had a punt last Friday where R muffed it and it went into R's end zone. After we signal touchback, an assistant for K starts yelling at me that "He touched it before it went in!!!" The head coach turned to the assistant and said, "Chill out. They got it right." I had to smile a little (while looking away, of course) and my estimation of the HC went up a little for that exchange. :thumbup
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Not really from the mouth of a coach, but it was pretty darn funny.
There's a commotion on the visitor's sideline just after I've hacked it in & I'm trying to figure out what the heck their problem is because both teams are in huddles and the last play was really nothing special. Then I see one of the assitants (whose primary job all night appeared to be hanging on to their game ball even when we needed it on the field) wind up and spike the ball after which he immediately drops to the ground like he's been shot. Yep, you guessed it, that ball came right back up and hit him where no guy wants to get hit :o. Since he's laying right on the sideline I have to call my first ever officials time out for an injured coach while trying not to crack up :-X. Which became even more difficult when he eventually got up to his hands and knees to crawl over to the bench.
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Not really from the mouth of a coach, but it was pretty darn funny.
There's a commotion on the visitor's sideline just after I've hacked it in & I'm trying to figure out what the heck their problem is because both teams are in huddles and the last play was really nothing special. Then I see one of the assitants (whose primary job all night appeared to be hanging on to their game ball even when we needed it on the field) wind up and spike the ball after which he immediately drops to the ground like he's been shot. Yep, you guessed it, that ball came right back up and hit him where no guy wants to get hit :o. Since he's laying right on the sideline I have to call my first ever officials time out for an injured coach while trying not to crack up :-X. Which became even more difficult when he eventually got up to his hands and knees to crawl over to the bench.
LOL
Did you hit him with a USC for spiking the ball? pi1eOn
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During a pregame conference with a coach, he described a substitution play that I felt was illegal.
"Coach, that play can be deemed deceptive and is illegal."
He replied "Hell Duffy, the option's deceptive!"
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I had a game the other week in the british league where we had a bit of a scuffle after the play was dead and two players started shoving each other.
Flags came in and the penalties were assessed. (Live ball Holding on offense, which resulted in the player being held going on to retaliate after the play was over, and another player coming into the fray getting involved after that.)
After all the penalties had been sorted out and we were getting back to our positions for the next play, the coach on my sideline came up to me and claimed that the player from the opposing team had punched his player with a closed fist and should be ejected.
I calmly replied to him that none of the officials had seen a closed fist punch, only a bit of shoving, and that he had been flagged for it.
The coach then replied with the immortal line:
"How could you not see that he used a closed fist to punch my guy? I saw it from where I was standing, and there were three players in the way."
I decided not to reply with the obvious retort of "If there were three guys in the way, did you use your x-ray vision to see the punch?"
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X-Ray vision and Telescopic vision are apparently two of the requirements to be a head coach. ::)
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The main problem I have with phantom calls is that you're calling a foul on an innocent person. Explain to me how a phantom call - because of what the coach wants - is teaching the player who got flagged sportsmanship? All it is teaching them is that it doesn't matter how "clean" they play the game, they're going to get flagged anyway. So why should they bother "keeping it clean"?
Agree. Anytime this happens in a game I am in, I signal to the other guys that the next play had better be perfect. No phantom calls, but anything that is boarderline WILL be called. The last time it happened, the play was run to perfection and there was no way we could justify a flag. Touchdown for A and they win 42-0.
I've heard guys say they have thrown a phantom flag and it didn't sit well with me. Just didn't seem right.
You can tighten it up or loosen it up, but don't make something up.
Also, remember, that just about every game is filmed, so think about having to explain your call that isn't there. Don't cheat the kid who throws a perfect block.
Stay healthy. The season starts in about 3 months!!!
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Aaaaannd another season starts! I heard "They broke the huddle with 12!" last night at a scrimmage. When informed that there was no such foul in high school ball, the assistant coach tried a different tack... "They only had 10 on the field then! That's an illegal formation!" ::)
I refrained from asking how it felt to have 20+ yards gained on you if they were 1-man down.
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Friday night, first high school game of the year and we call an illegal formation for O having only 6 on the line. The opposite wing from me has the team on defense at the time and their coach says to him, "hey ref, does that needing 6 guys on the line rule go both ways?". My wing says, "coach its seven on the line and it only applies to the offense so you are fine for now." This was not his first year either... Where do they get these guys???
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I got a "Hey! Hey! They can't sub after they break the (defensive) huddle!" this week.
* rolls eyes *
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When officiating youth games, I generally during the pregame conference with the coach like to make sure that his captains choose wisely at the coin toss. One coach in particular generally has little time for me during the conference and tries to ignore our discussion. I asked the coach what choice he wanted his captains to make. He turned away from me as if I was a leper. I asked again thinking maybe I just didn't hear his response. He turned towards me in disgust and said gruffly, "They know!" I asked again if he could share their choice with me and with fire in his eyes stated, "Heads! We want heads!" Ironically, his captains did select heads and won the toss and elected to kick so they could have the ball in the second half. Too bad they kicked off twice that game.
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Some assistant coaches just don't know when to keep their mouth shut. I was working a JV game as the WH last night and an assistant coach wanted a foul called and didn't get it. He decided to come on the field during the play and express his opinion. ^flag As I was signaling the unsportmanlike conduct foul, another assistant coach decided it was his turn ^flag. Not to be outdone, a third assistant coach questioned my heritage and ability. ^flag I guess when you lose 4 fumbles, 2 interceptions, muff a kickoff and a punt, it's the officials fault you lost the game. Looking forward to tonights Varsity game.
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Doing things like that (the phantom holding calls on a team during a blowout) take us out of the realm of ensuring safety and fairness and move us into the realm of punishing boorish behavior. It's not our job to punish people for being merciless - even in Connecticut where I hear there is a rule that fines the coach for running up the score. Their fine is assessed by the state, not the officials on the field.
Stick with the tasks you ARE given and stop trying to change a coaches' moral compass. It wouldn't work anyway as their compass is permanently askew. LOL
Actually, the rule here in CT is that the HC is suspended from the next game if his team's winning margin is 50+ points. Dumbest rule ever.
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Well, I'll be damned.
Interesting thing tonight. Under Canadian rules, an intentional grounding originating from the endzone gives an option to the defence - safety or treat as if the pass were incomplete, roll the down and go from there.
The coach of the defence was up by a zillion - and declined the chance to score two more points. I clarified this after the game.
Of course, we had a weird play on the next down that resulted in a safety anyhow.
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Every once in a while you run into a coach that "gets it". Sounds like you just found one! ^good
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Tonight, JV game--NCAA rules. Team B blocks Team A's extra point attempt behind the NZ and the ball trickles down to the B 1yd line and comes to rest. No whistle...No action--but players still moving. Both teams looking to their bench for instruction...still no whistle. Finally B goes and surrounds it with 3 players, but refuses to touch the ball. After about 3-4 seconds of waiting for any other action, I blow the whistle. The B team coach comes out hollering at me for not blowing the whistle quicker and then asks me about the rule. I told him that the ball was live and that his team could have easily picked it up and attempted to run it 99 yards for 2 points. He then delivers the line of the night..."But if we don't touch it, could the clock run until the quarter runs out?" He was dead serious. Yes...I laughed at him!!! LOL
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NFHS rules:
Visitor QB in shotgun formation, rolls left, pressured. Receiver on my side gets held around the waist by the DB as he begins to pass him. They subsequently trip on each other. QB gets pushed OOB behind the LOS. I flag the hold and report to the WH.
Visiting HC loves the foul, hates the enforcement. First he demands a spot foul. When I tell them that isn't happening, he begs for previous spot enforcement:
HC- "Wouldn't that be previous spot?"
Me: "No sir, running play, your QB got pushed out of bounds. We'll enforce from the end of the run."
HC: "But the PASS WASN'T THROWN!" (with this "a-ha! got you! expression on his face")
Me: "Exactly- and you do get your down back."
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A calls a screen pass. The linebacker from B (down by about 6 touchdowns in the second quarter) tackles the receiver before the ball gets even halfway to the receiver. I (working as the L) and the U both have flags down that land within about 6 inches of each other. The B coach (on my sideline, and what a joy he was all night) goes absolutely nuts, saying that we can't call that foul on a pass behind the line of scrimmage. I tell him that he's correct, IF we were calling DPI, and that if his LB had just hit the receiver, we wouldn't have thrown our flags. But, since he tackled the man before the ball got there, it was holding. Of course, it was a terrible call, and it was terrible that we were "taking the game away from his kids."
Apparently, his team would have scored 7 unanswered touchdowns if it weren't for our "terrible" holding call.
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Apparently, his team would have scored 7 unanswered touchdowns if it weren't for our "terrible" holding call.
Ever notice you're only ever responsible for losses, never for wins?
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Oh, definitely. Nobody ever says "Dammit, you're giving us the game, ref!" :)
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Heh. Regional Semifinals this past Friday. I didn't have a game to work so I get to watch the home team for a change as a spectator. During the game I counted five flags for inelligibles downfield with most coming later in the game along with some other "not thinking" penalties. Home team wins despite all that and by a comfortable margin. After the game one of the assistant coaches (who knows I officiate) see me and "thanks" me - with "me" being our official's association - for "throwing all those flags to prevent us running up the score more." I was very confused until I realized he was being sarcastic. He then said something about how EVERYBODY has inelligibles downfield and why are we starting to call it now? hEaDbAnG
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The difference bewtween ignorant and stupid. Ignorant can be corrected by providing knowledge, stupid is forever.
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I have an 8 man game at Langston University. There are temporary sidelines for the game on the field. The players and coaches are to stay behind the college sidelines, according to the university's rules.
We have a play where the visiting team throws a pass in the end zone. Defender jumps up in front of the receiver and bats it away. Receiver is knocked down after the pass flies by. Nothing to call. Visiting team HC goes ballistic and is out to the field. I am working H that night, but am normally the U. Needless to say, my flag goes up. My R says" Sideline warning Ryan?" I say, within earshot of the HC, "Hell no! 15 yards for that garbage!
Did not hear another word the rest of the night. I have been a HS Basketball Coach for 10 years, I'm not putting up with that stuff.
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New coach to our league hadn't won a game all year but was looking for every break he could.
Forward pass landed on the ground behind the LOS. Coach starts yelling 'live ball live ball get it' We had blown it incomplete. Not sure what type of game he was playing.
This one not from a coach but a captain. Just had our grand final couple weekends back. Team A was on 4th down and caught the ball short of the first down. Now we always start our series on a hash mark so it is easy to see when a first down is made. Easy right? Well for us yes but with the ball an easy half yard short captain comes in questioning my signal for first down, other captain speaks to U and walks off in agreement it is turnover of downs while my captain gets on bended knee lining himself up with the hash mark in the middle of the field and the ball about 6ft away towards the sideline. Was about to walk away when I decided nope not happy about that at all, clearly short half a yard, USC to the captain.
It was a real shame because this team payed well but only after they had 4 x PF/USC penalties in the one play, but alas there were a few more to come. Naturally we cost them the game.
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Our GF's this Saturday - feel like coming over to do a game Grant ?
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I had a coach (Middle School) last Tuesday behind 48-0 with a running clock (Mercy Rule)still calling time outs at 2 min.'s wanting to make sure he had the right call for his 1st string offense.
The other team was playing all their bench players at the time.
He wonders why he can't get officials who want to call their games.
I don't believe a running clock is legal. The teams may choose to shorten the period lengths but they cannot have the clock continue to run.
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I don't believe a running clock is legal. The teams may choose to shorten the period lengths but they cannot have the clock continue to run.
I think the running clock is a league-adopted mercy rule.
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Agreed. The mercy rule is determined by the State. If they want to go with a true running clock, then it's legal.
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I don't believe a running clock is legal. The teams may choose to shorten the period lengths but they cannot have the clock continue to run.
NF:3-1-4" A period or periods may be shortened in any emergency by greement of the opposing coaches and the Referee. By mutual agreement of the opposing coaches and the referee, any remaining period may be shortenedat any time or the game terminated". Thankfully this rule is sufficiently vague and is ambiguous enough to allow rational adults, given the authority to shorten a game, the flexibility to determine how they want to shorten it.
The rule does not address how the remaining time will be shortened, nor prohibit any specific means of doing so. That seems to suggest that if the opposing coaches and the Referee agree to a running clock, that would fit within the parameters of the rule, and once that adjustment begins, changing it would require the agreement, again, of both coaches AND the Referee.
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Al, I don't think one team dominating another would qualify as an "emergency", which is what the rule you quote is designed for. This rule was put in for the purpose of weather or other disaster-related issues.
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Al, I don't think one team dominating another would qualify as an "emergency", which is what the rule you quote is designed for. This rule was put in for the purpose of weather or other disaster-related issues.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and NF: 1-1-6 firmly designates the Referee as "the beholder". Keep in mind, we're talking about a 48-0 Middle School game, during which you've given both coaches the opportunity to agree, or disagree.
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NF:3-1-4" A period or periods may be shortened in any emergency by agreement of the opposing coaches and the Referee. By mutual agreement of the opposing coaches and the referee, any remaining period may be shortened at any time or the game terminated".
Well, the beholder better be ready to explain to the applicable league why that particular beholder decided to throw out the league's existing mercy rules in favor of declaring that a state of "emergency" existed because of the score. I'm sure the winning team would LOVE to know they caused the beholder to declare a state of "emergency". They would then try to have one called in every subsequent game.
The beholder is not going to have an easy job parsing that bit of creative rule-reading. If he tries to claim that the second sentence is separate from the first and so the "in any emergency" clause does not apply, then he'll have to explain why the first sentence was even necessary to be written as the second one would seem to apply equally well in both emergency and non-emergency situations alike.
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I'll tell you, I am not used to working white hat!
Late in a blow out game (equivalent to PeeWee for you, but the kids are bigger). Winning coach is running up the score big. We have 'mercy rule' of running clock in this league if the score difference is 30 points.
Late in the game - about 1/2 minute left.
Winning team has a long run for a TD. Flags for offensive holding and defensive illegal use of hands (I think, it was 2 live ball fouls in any event)...
I signal offsetting penalties and a replay of the down.
Winning coach - 'But it was a touchdown!'
Me - 'Yes coach, but we have 2 live ball fouls that offset, we replay the down.'
WC - 'But it was a touchdown, you can't take away a touchdown!' (said about 6 times as we walk back to the previous spot)
WC - 'I don't get the touchdown?'
Me - 'No coach, we have offsetting penalties and are going to replay the down.'
WC - 'Well give me the time back then, OK?'
(For completeness sake, the next play was the last, and they scored a TD on it).