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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: Big Wave Dave on January 01, 2011, 09:23:24 PM
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Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was. It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.
I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality. And that's the way it should be. But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten. I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State. I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game. I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play". Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.
I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make. I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not. By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call. It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games. And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing. Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration". I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him. As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it. It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl. If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.
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Feel better now?
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What really made it seem even worse was the Music City bowl right after it. Tenn players were saluting, stomping, etc yet no call. Agreed, that call was a HORRIBLE decision. Even if you think that was "drawing attention to himself" how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?
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How do you NOT flag it at THAT point if you would have flagged it at ANOTHER point?
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How do you NOT flag it at THAT point if you would have flagged it at ANOTHER point?
I wouldnt have flagged that at all. I didnt watch the whole game, but I cant imagine there wasnt anything more demonstrative in that game than that. It was a bad time and place, imho.
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Well if you would not have flagged at all then obviously you would not flag at THAT point in the game. Have you read Redding's memo on unbsportsmanlike conduct?
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Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was. It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.
I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality. And that's the way it should be. But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten. I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State. I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game. I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play". Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.
I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make. I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not. By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call. It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games. And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing. Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration". I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him. As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it. It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl. If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.
...Nice first post. hEaDbAnG
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When a D-1 Head Football Coach, chairman of the rules committee says that the "salute" call was correct and the type of actions they want to get rid of in the game, then it really doesn't matter what fans think of the rule. When the head man says it was correct. Guess what? It is correct. We work for the folks who create the rules. You should research who the makers of the rules are.
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It's simple - don't like my judgment, don't make me use it.
But a fanboy will never understand that.
You just go ahead and be embarrassed by your "association with the Big 10."
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Even if you think that was "drawing attention to himself" how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?
This part doesn't even make sense. If you believe a player celebrating is drawing attention to oneself, it's a penalty period. We as officials get a bad rap when we decide to "swallow our whistle" at the end of the game.
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i would focus on being more embarrased by 0-5 for the big 11 on new years day
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i would focus on being more embarrased by 0-5 for the big 11 on new years day
+1
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Well if you would not have flagged at all then obviously you would not flag at THAT point in the game. Have you read Redding's memo on unbsportsmanlike conduct?
So you're saying there's never a case where you let something go even if its technically a foul? You've never had a holding behind a play where you just let it happen and didnt flag it because it didnt affect a play?
And no, I havent read the memo.
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I have seen "fouls" that did not affect the play and I did not flag but it did not matter if it was the start of the game or the end. If it did not afect the play it was not flagged. Dead ball fouls like this ine NEVER affect the play as they are after it end so that is a faulty comparison. You have not read the memo college officials have read and which I suspect the crew of this game has read. So they were operating with guiodance you are not aware of.
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So you're saying there's never a case where you let something go even if its technically a foul? You've never had a holding behind a play where you just let it happen and didnt flag it because it didnt affect a play?
And no, I havent read the memo.
You're previous comment ("how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?") was dumb enough and trying to spin yourself out of that hole with further explanations is an impossible task. The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game". How this game affects, or should be affected by, what happens at some other game is totally beyond the control, or concern, of the officials at either game.
Whether you would have thrown that flag, or chose not to, would be entirely your decision and you are free to agree, or disagree with the decision made by the actual field officials, but that's where it should end. Perhaps some day, you will be selected, or assigned, to work a specific game and you will be in a position to decide whether what you see merits a flag, or not. Hopefully you'll have the courage to make what you believe is the right call, which may not be the popular one.
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You're previous comment ("how in the world do you call it at THAT point in the game?") was dumb enough and trying to spin yourself out of that hole with further explanations is an impossible task. The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game". How this game affects, or should be affected by, what happens at some other game is totally beyond the control, or concern, of the officials at either game.
Whether you would have thrown that flag, or chose not to, would be entirely your decision and you are free to agree, or disagree with the decision made by the actual field officials, but that's where it should end. Perhaps some day, you will be selected, or assigned, to work a specific game and you will be in a position to decide whether what you see merits a flag, or not. Hopefully you'll have the courage to make what you believe is the right call, which may not be the popular one.
Well said...
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The Holy Grail of "consistency" everyone seems to pine for begins with the requirement that "you officiate the end of the game exactly as you did the beginning of the game".
I have the strong sense, and some experiences, that a LOT of officials advidly voice that position but a significant number do not practice it.
When faced with a situation akin to the last 16 sec in the Tenn-NC game or the end of the Pinstripe Bowl, your mind does not always follow thru on prior mental committments.
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When a D-1 Head Football Coach, chairman of the rules committee says that the "salute" call was correct and the type of actions they want to get rid of in the game, then it really doesn't matter what fans think of the rule. When the head man says it was correct. Guess what? It is correct. We work for the folks who create the rules. You should research who the makers of the rules are.
It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this. He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score. The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit. All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right. This call was marginal at best. It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo. Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.
Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that. We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air? Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.
We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.
Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.
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I don't know this to be a fact, but if it were, would your opinion change? Assume these 2 officials (or others in their conference) were downgraded by their TA/observer/supervisor earlier in the year for NOt flagging this or a very similar act? Wouldn't you expect them to flag it now?
Or assume they HAD flagged this or a similar act earlier in the year and received an attaboy? Wouldn't you expect them to flag again?
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I find it hard to believe that this is a "Make it be there" foul. That phrase by the way originated out of this conference. Additionally, it is hard to support by the guidelines of our rules editor or even by rule as suggested. I pretty much guarantee that if no flag was thrown in this situation, this post and the one like it would not be 2 pages long...
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It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this. He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score. The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit. All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right. This call was marginal at best. It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo. Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.
Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that. We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air? Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.
We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.
Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.
I never said I liked the call, but I find it hard to argue with the man responsible for the content of the rule book If that is what they want flagged, then I suspect there are a great number of us who have had quite a few incorrect no calls. If the chair of the rules committee says it was correct then what else is there. His word is fact. Ours are left as opinions.
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I find it hard to believe that this is a "Make it be there" foul. That phrase by the way originated out of this conference. Additionally, it is hard to support by the guidelines of our rules editor or even by rule as suggested. I pretty much guarantee that if no flag was thrown in this situation, this post and the one like it would not be 2 pages long...
Perhaps the reason this issue is two pages long is because some feel the world has to know exactly how THEY would have handled the situation. The harsh reality is, however, none of that matters. The call was made, obviously it was one that just as easily could not have been made, as was made.
Having second guessed myself way more times than I should have had to, I can appreciate that all this "coulda, shoulda" second guessing leads this discussion nowhere. If you saw the play, and agree with the call and believe why you agree with it, great. If you saw the call and don't agree with it and believe why you don't agree with it, just as great. If a similar situation presents itself in YOUR future, you'll be better prepared to deal with it as you see fit, presuming you have the courage to follow your heart at that moment, the way that covering official did without hesitation.
But second guessing and imagining why the call was made, the way the call was made simply doesn't clarify a damn thing or add anything useful.
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Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was. It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.
I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality. And that's the way it should be. But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten. I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State. I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game. I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play". Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.
I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make. I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not. By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call. It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games. And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing. Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration". I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him. As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it. It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl. If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.
^flag
Well said, Dave! Even at the high school and even at the junior high level, the official should simply have made a b-line for the offender in question and gave him a very stern BUTT-chewing greatly to the effect that you're letting him off the hook this time but if you see it again, you're throwing his butt out! Then convey that very same message to his head coach! Trust me; they would deeply appreciate it being handled that way!
The only reason I can even speculate that the official called this particular foul was to either make some futile attempt at scoring some "brownie points" or "atta-boy's" from his conference commissioner, or if it was his particular sideline, to aid in appeasing a coach who had been royally doling out an "BUTT-chewing" of his own on that particular official during the course of the game!
Had they just exercised that little bit of common-sense, it would have made for a much better ending to that football game! z^
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It doesn't matter if Randy Edsall stated this. He would not want this call going against his team in any situation much less a bowl game (assuming he actually had chance in hell of winning) after a score. The coaches only like what is convenient about the rules as they're written when they can benefit. All of the press releases by head of this committee or that committee or the head of CFO doesn't make this right. This call was marginal at best. It's amazing we have had press releases from Parry, Edsall and others BUT Bill Carollo. Considering his pedigree is the same as many others (Austin, McAulay, Anderson) heading up an officiating dept of guys we regularly see working these bowls, it is my belief a talk to would have worked out best rather than the "I gotcha mentality" of the calling official.
Just to reiterate my position, that salute was not excessive and saluting the fans is exactly that. We don't throw flags whenever a player raises his arm into the air? Not because it isn't specifically mentioned in Rule 9 but because common sense for those of us who perhaps at one point had an emotional attachment to the game understand when a spectacular play was made.
We can sit here and say they acted to the letter of the law to protect our own, but the intent of that player was not to draw excessive focus on himself insofar as it was to celebrate a play in the heat of the moment.
Some guys are just the fun Gestapo.
:thumbup
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The way the rule is written, it was a foul. Change the rule whereas the enforcement is on the KO with no option for PAT enforcement on UNS and we are not discussing this. Those Officials were put in a very difficult position. We have all worked games where this has occurred, and the Official has two choices; react or ignore. Ignore and you are asked why, react and you are asked why. You action will be scrutinized either way.
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Taken on its own, the gesture does not look that serious, but as with the other discussion we have had on this subject, what we don't have is the context of the game when the call was made. If this was a first offense, I would also like to think that in that situation I would also just warn the player.
But what if this was a second or subsequent event? What if the player/coach/team were already warned? At some point the flag has to come out or the warning has no meaning. I did not see the game, so I don't know if there were other situations like this.
Now I know that there are those who will say that even if there were a previous warning, that the action itself would not have been enough to warrant a flag, but I gotta believe the officials on the field earned the right to be there by exercising good judgment in previous assignments. I am not saying that they are incapable of making mistakes or that they did not make a mistake in this instance, but without knowing the whole situation, they deserve, and will get- from me at least- the benefit of the doubt.
We are often quick to criticize other officials for their actions, I am as guilty of that as anyone. But to call them idiots or disparage them personnally seems out of line. There are many differing opinions expressed on this forum, and I have learned a great deal here, but I just wish the personal stuff would be kept to a minimum if not eliminated entirely. There is enough of that coming from the stands and the sidelines. It shouldn't come from other officials
Criticize their decisions, disagree with my opinions, but it serves no purpose to tear each other down.
A Happy and Healthy New Year to you all.
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We have all worked games where this has occurred, and the Official has two choices; react or ignore. Ignore and you are asked why, react and you are asked why. You action will be scrutinized either way.
But on this particular play, wouldn't you rather be defending a no-call?
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...Change the rule whereas the enforcement is on the KO with no option for PAT enforcement on UNS...
With the ability of some kickers these days that would make many UNS enforcements a non-event.
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The only reason I can even speculate that the official called this particular foul was to either make some futile attempt at scoring some "brownie points" or "atta-boy's" from his conference commissioner, or if it was his particular sideline, to aid in appeasing a coach who had been royally doling out an "BUTT-chewing" of his own on that particular official during the course of the game!
Had they just exercised that little bit of common-sense, it would have made for a much better ending to that football game! z^
I think that is just a tad unfair, especially considering it was flagged by two different officials.
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I think that is just a tad unfair, especially considering it was flagged by two different officials.
^flag
Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al. or someone whom we may never know. But he didn't get in an opposing players face and do it; had he done that, then I could really not argue with the call. By the same token, are we going to call a foul on someone who, after scoring, either points to the heavens or simply drops to a knee in a word of prayer or meditation? Isn't that also emblematic of bringing attention to oneself?
NCAA Rules Committee, Coaches, and AD's: let's try to fine-tune this rule and give the players a little deserved leeway in this truely gray area! z^
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now the KState hoopsters are weighing in.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Wally-Judge-leads-clever-protest-of-Kansas-State?urn=ncaab-302790
so is the next step imploring Big 12 b-ball officials to lob a few retaliatory T's? ;D
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^flag
Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al. or someone whom we may never know.
If only 1 had chosen the "discrete warning" route there would still be a flag down.
An official who was in that corner advised the player went to a TV camera and saluted into the camera, not a salute of the crowd as widely reported.
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^flag
Even though two officials allegedly saw it, I agree that it's still a numbers game. One of the two of those calling officials could very well have just discreetly warned the offender and his head coach and gone on from there. It was a simple salute... to maybe the players parents, relatives, girlfriend, et. al. or someone whom we may never know. But he didn't get in an opposing players face and do it; had he done that, then I could really not argue with the call. By the same token, are we going to call a foul on someone who, after scoring, either points to the heavens or simply drops to a knee in a word of prayer or meditation? Isn't that also emblematic of bringing attention to oneself?
It appears, arbitrator, you would not have thrown a flag in this situation, which is fine and would have been your call, HAD YOU BEEN WORKING THIS CONTEST. Apparently you disagree with the judgment made by the official who was working this contest, which is also fine. More importantly, should you ever be confronted with a similar situation, you and only you, will decide whether or not YOU decide a flag is warranted.
At this point in time, it really doesn't matter what the covering officials "coulda/ shoulda" done, what counts is what they actually did. It's possible that confronted with a similar situation at some point down the road, this experience might either influence these same two officials to react exactly the same, or maybe choose not to. There is no absolute answer, they did what they thought was right, if given a similar situation you can choose to do whatever you thinkk is right....and life goes on.
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It appears, arbitrator, you would not have thrown a flag in this situation, which is fine and would have been your call, HAD YOU BEEN WORKING THIS CONTEST. Apparently you disagree with the judgment made by the official who was working this contest, which is also fine. More importantly, should you ever be confronted with a similar situation, you and only you, will decide whether or not YOU decide a flag is warranted.
At this point in time, it really doesn't matter what the covering officials "coulda/ shoulda" done, what counts is what they actually did. It's possible that confronted with a similar situation at some point down the road, this experience might either influence these same two officials to react exactly the same, or maybe choose not to. There is no absolute answer, they did what they thought was right, if given a similar situation you can choose to do whatever you thinkk is right....and life goes on.
I know there are different officiating philosophies, but I didn't know moral relativism was one of them. ;)
But seriously, aren't we supposed to learn from our own--and each others'--mistakes? It CAN matter what a covering official coulda/shoulda done--not for the purpose of raking them over the coals. But for the purpose of mutual education. Or fine-tuning a collective understanding of a rule. (Especially one that leaves as much up to the individual's interpretation as the celebration rule.)
I think sometimes we as officials can be a little too quick to circle the wagons. I understand the impulse to protect our own. But if we hastily say, "Nothing to see here. It was an individual's judgment. Who's to say what's right or wrong in one person's mind? Let's move on."--then I think we do ourselves a disservice by glossing over a potentially valuable teaching moment.
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But seriously, aren't we supposed to learn from our own--and each others'--mistakes? It CAN matter what a covering official coulda/shoulda done--not for the purpose of raking them over the coals. But for the purpose of mutual education. Or fine-tuning a collective understanding of a rule. (Especially one that leaves as much up to the individual's interpretation as the celebration rule.)
I think sometimes we as officials can be a little too quick to circle the wagons. I understand the impulse to protect our own. But if we hastily say, "Nothing to see here. It was an individual's judgment. Who's to say what's right or wrong in one person's mind? Let's move on."--then I think we do ourselves a disservice by glossing over a potentially valuable teaching moment.
Agreed. tiphat:
We all know that the game is directed by our individual judgements to what we call or do not call. However, as stated above, doesn't each of us have a goal of getting better each game, contest, and year? What if, just maybe, we actually learn something from this situation and have more insight into what actually goes into making this call or passing on it if faced with a similar situation. This type of information only comes to us through analysis of plays, film review, discussion with other officials (either here or our respective meetings), and instruction from our supervisors.
Doesn't that make more sense than simply saying, "oh well, we weren't there so we can't comment on it."? I, for one, have learned a lot of information and philosophies from being on this site. Thank you to all the contributors; especially, Grant, Mike, Jim, Brad, Matt, Diablo, Elvis (miss him) and the many others who post videos and play situations on here.
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We might tend to circle the wagons quickly sometimes - but look at this discussion... Almost everyone is pointing to the one flag and action and asking if it was necessary or if they would do it in a similar manner.
GAHSUMPIRE has a very important point. We don't know the context leading up to that action.
Many here think a talk to was in order. We don't know that they haven't already had a talk to. Or that this player was a problem earlier. Or.. Whatever.
We don't throw a a flag for seeing the end of an action without seeing the complete action, and we can't necessarily issue an opinion about this flag without seeing the whole context.
Of course it is possible that there was nothing before hand and they were over zealous with their flags. Don't know.
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Another possibility for your consideration: we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!
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Another possibility for your consideration: we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!
Excellent point -- do your celebrating with teammates in your team area and we got nothing.
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Another possibility for your consideration: we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!
In other words, act like you've been there before!
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Another possibility for your consideration: we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Head Coach, OC, or position coach had done their job and taught this kid to, when scoring a td, immediately return the ball to the nearest official, then get his fanny to the team area - where he can salute everyone up to the Pope or President if he wants!!
You can teach a kid all day long, but that won't stop a brief, non-confrontational spontaneous reaction on their part, which is excactly what I considered this to be.
I could argue the same thing. If the official took his time and thought about the entire action, it's brevity, it's lack of taunting or confrontation, etc., he might not have thrown a flag either. But he reacted, just as kids, even kids who are taught, are apt to do on occassion.
Look at the NFL official two weeks ago who got shoved. His "reaction" was terrible, and he is an incredibly well trained professional.
Spontaneous reactions happen. Redding even makes note of that is his explanations of what should and shouldn't be called.
I wonder, in his own mind, if the official that called this foul , in retrospect, now thinks he shouldn't have.
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Which official, Blue?
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Which official, Blue?
The one that threw the flag, not the one that mirrored the call.
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So now one of them mirrored the call?
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The one that threw the flag, not the one that mirrored the call.
Are you sure it was mirrored? I thought that both flags came out at the same time, with not enough time in between to see that the other official was throwing his. Plus, at this level I don't think any official would "mirror" someone unless they also judged the act to be illegal.
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Assuming facts not in evidence there Blue. Someone who was present at that game has reported the flags came out simultaneously.
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Assuming facts not in evidence there Blue. Someone who was present at that game has reported the flags came out simultaneously.
That same person also said the salute was to the TV camera and not the crowd, and the video you posted clearly shows that is not true. The camera is off of his left shoulder, while the direction he is facing is clearly to the cameraman's left and to the crowd.
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There were multiple cameras from the network as well as other media covering the game.
What evidence do you have to suggest, much less prove, the 2d flag was a "mirror"?
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Back, and to the left.
Back....and to the left.
(http://rogersbest.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jfk.jpg)
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Back, and to the left.
Back....and to the left.
(http://rogersbest.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jfk.jpg)
Or... ;D
(http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_arts_john/052510loogie.jpg)
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I have noticed that, after this incident that more players are tossing the ball to the nearest official. Just an observation.
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I have noticed that, after this incident that more players are tossing the ball to the nearest official. Just an observation.
Now, THAT'S something Barry Sanders would be proud of!
(Still a "horse s%$#" call)
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Now, THAT'S something Barry Sanders would be proud of!
(Still a "horse s%$#" call)
As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.
As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times. And no, I don't have it.
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And tossing them from different spots on the field would have no affect on the landing time?
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As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.
As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times. And no, I don't have it.
Wow...so just because flags come out one after another they are "mirrored"? One of the biggest misconceptions among coaches is that officials "mirror" flags. If I'm an official and I see my buddy throw a flag that I wasn't going to flag...why in the hell would I put my butt on the line as well by throwing a flag just to "mirror" him?
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oh...and the other big misconception is that when we don't have a number of the fouler...we made the foul up. ok...glad I got those off my chest, I feel better now.
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My thoughts:
1. The salute was not excessive or prolonged, but less than a second
2. The salute did not bring any more attention to the player than he did by scoring in the first place. This attention was no more than pointing to the sky, raising both arms overhead, jumping up and down, or any other of a list of actions we do not flag as excessive.
3. Could this be construed as excessive by some officials? Yes. However, in my opinion this was not worthy of my flag, but I was not in the game.
4. For some who think the officials should have warned the player, we are not instructed to issue warnings, even though we do every game. In cases of USC we are specifically instructed not to issue warnings, yet many of us do just that. (for NFHS, I cannot speak to instructions for NCAA)
5. It is the judgement of the official covering the play, and he must stand by his call or wave off the flag.
Bottom line: I would not have called this foul, but I will mark off the yardage just the same if my crew mate did flag it, and I'll sell it the coach if need be.
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As would Herschel, who always tossed the ball to the official and actged like he had scored before.
As to the mirroring, there was a view somewhere that showed flags arriving at very different times. And no, I don't have it.
I wonder what coaches would think about an official, who presumed that every time a player committed a personal foul, he did so because he was instructed to play dirty by his coach?
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There is another unseen camera that captured the flight of the supposed second flag; thrown from the grassy knoll! ^flag
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The rule states: "Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player attempts to focus attention on himself (or themselves)." The act in question met NONE of the four characteristics mentioned in the rule. It was immediate, not delayed. It was minor, not excessive. It was brief, not prolonged. Obviously, no choreography was required.
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Man, I can't vent enough about what a joke that last Pinstripe Bowl penalty was. It was a sad end to a good game; so bad that even the Syracuse fans are talking about how ridiculous it was.
I'm a Big Ten fan, and in both football and basketball we pride ourselves on physical play that happens in many cases because the officials seem to have the "Let them play" mentality. And that's the way it should be. But after watching the end of that game I'm embarrassed to be associated with the Big Ten. I live in Kansas City and I was rooting against K-State. I don't like the Big 12, but I would never wish a "blown" call to decide the outcome of a game. I'd much rather see everyone healthy and active, and as long as certain penalties don't decide the outcome, "Let them play". Then I'm happy to watch them get their butts kicked.
I realize that the official's superiors and the National Officiating Coordinator have to publicly stand by their man, but I can't believe any one of them thinks it was the correct call to make. I'm not disputing whether it was a penalty or not. By the book it was a penalty, but that's a sad defense in justifying the call. It was far less an excessive celebration than seen a thousand times during the season, and dozens of times throughout all the bowl games. And I guarantee the offficial in question saw similar or worse infractions during the year and did nothing. Then after a whole season of team preparation, on and off field ups and downs, and the wins and losses, the official decided the last seconds of a teams final game were the perfect time to be an ambassador against "excessive celebration". I guess the idiot that made the call thought the game was supposed to be all about him. As far as I'm concerned he got his wish because I watched the whole game and the only thing I can think about is the 2 second brain-fart that ruined it. It might as well been called the Zebra Stripe Bowl. If there were any truth to the comments the player said came from the official after the call, the "bad decision, buddy" comment, this guy needs to be demoted to intermural woman's flag football.
Who's "Blown call" are you talking about????
Why are you not talking about a Kansas State failed fake field goal at the SYR 11 yard line?
Or, That Coach Snyder himself said "wasn't a good call" on his part?
OR that The KState defense surrendered 498 yards and failed to account for Marcus Sales who had 172 yards and three touchdowns?
Or telling the world why of the OTHER 62 offensive plays that Kansas State ran in the game, it was this Dead Ball foul that cost them the game?
Or how KState QB Carson Coffman himself said, "It's something you can't do, we know that."
Yeah, right.
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Who's "Blown call" are you talking about????
Why are you not talking about a Kansas State failed fake field goal at the SYR 11 yard line?
Or, That Coach Snyder himself said "wasn't a good call" on his part?
OR that The KState defense surrendered 498 yards and failed to account for Marcus Sales who had 172 yards and three touchdowns?
Or telling the world why of the OTHER 62 offensive plays that Kansas State ran in the game, it was this Dead Ball foul that cost them the game?
Or how KState QB Carson Coffman himself said, "It's something you can't do, we know that."
Yeah, right.
Jim,
A spade is a spade.
In each of the examples you cited the K-State team owned up to their mistake in performance, effort and judgement. The officiating crew did/has not.
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In each of the examples you cited the K-State team owned up to their mistake in performance, effort and judgement. The officiating crew did/has not.
Sorry, but I just can't let one get by...
What do you mean by "[the crew] did/has not" ??
Is not the fact that the NCAA CFO coordinator of officials and the chairman of the NCAA Football Rules committee stating publicly in major media that it was the correct call enough?
What do you want or expect the crew to do? Please, be specific.
I would like to hear your recommendations for the circumstances you propose in which an official or crew would be compelled to "own up" as you said, to a judgement call beyond that of their supervisor's internal review process, or that of the CFO, or the rules committee ...in a way that public should know and hear about it.
Based on the 1st post of this thread, there are many fans who believe they are entitled to be part of some sort of public and televised evaluation process that results in the castigating or firing of officials for calls they neither understand nor agree with.
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"Correct call" while the rest of the college football world dances and prances....C'mon Man....nope, that's not enough. It creates cynicism with and about the whole lot of us.
Perhaps the slash "has" was a mistake? The crew did make comment immediately following the game. Had they at the time, "owned up" that they just blew the call it shifts the entire discussion. For a representative example I would point to Jim Joyce this past summer.
Listen we all make mistakes, I've yet to work a perfect game. My point and my position is that we as officials do need to take responsibility. We need to say when we blow it. I believe it gives us more credibility when we do. For the most part people DO understand we make mistakes....It's only when our egos get in the way that it seems to get us (as officials in general) in trouble.
The crew's specific response to that specific call following the game in attempting to justify their judgement of the celebration, when the rest of the nation could see evidence to the contrary from that same game and games throughout the bowl season, is what I was referring to.
So you are correct, I don't expect them to say anything more, but at the time they chose to speak and what they DID say wasn't a proper self examination of their judgment. Otherwise, if they only want to be subject to their supervisors review, I'd say don't speak at all.
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Excuse me, Jackhammer, but why do you expect anyone has to beg forgiveness from you, for any call they made? You are entitled to your opinion, but as far as ego being a problem is concerned YOU just have to accept that YOUR opinion simply doesn't matter to anyone but you. If the official making the call is comfortable with his judgment, who are you to insist anyone "own up" to agree with you.
Yes, we all do make mistakes and dealing with our judgments, whether they be right or wrong, is a majhor part of our job. When exactly did the King die and you get coronated to be the one to decide, "what they DID say wasn't a proper self examination of their judgment."
The harsh reality is simply that YOU don't get to decide squat, unless and until you are assigned to work the contest you're opinining on. If you are assigned, then you get to make all the calls and I would certainly wish you well. Otherwise you are just one of many spectators who gets to enjoy watching the game and pontificating to your hearts content to those around you, but to be honest, that's as far as your opinion goes.
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Right call or wrong call, Al?
That's what it comes down to and to suggest one can't make it, observe, think about it and comment on it from afar is ludicrous. It's all part of the process of trying to get better....if you don't own up to your shortcomings, you don't in fact, get better.
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Right call or wrong call, Al?
That's what it comes down to and to suggest one can't make it, observe, think about it and comment on it from afar is ludicrous. It's all part of the process of trying to get better....if you don't own up to your shortcomings, you don't in fact, get better.
but asking someone to "own up" and criticizing them if they don't - is nothing more than you advancing you opinion (which is your right) that the call was incorrect and that the officials agree with you!
There are many calls in football that can be supported either way - I hear that from my supervisor often - it's not an exact science, zero sum endeavor.
On this play I'm not critical that a flag was thrown and I wouldn't be critical if they passed on it. The whole debate was not caused by the officials - it was caused by the player putting the officials in a tough spot - if you steal from the cookie jar, you can't complain when Mom catches you, that she didn't catch your sister.
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but asking someone to "own up" and criticizing them if they don't - is nothing more than you advancing you opinion (which is your right) that the call was incorrect and that the officials agree with you!
There are many calls in football that can be supported either way - I hear that from my supervisor often - it's not an exact science, zero sum endeavor.
On this play I'm not critical that a flag was thrown and I wouldn't be critical if they passed on it. The whole debate was not caused by the officials - it was caused by the player putting the officials in a tough spot - if you steal from the cookie jar, you can't complain when Mom catches you, that she didn't catch your sister.
I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this. My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.
You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice. The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.
The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case.
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I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this. My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.
You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice. The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.
The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case.
thanks - good discussion - not sure where it gets us in the heat of battle, though. This wasn't the first controversy over post-TD player actions and certainly won't be the last.
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I agree with you Zebra, but that's not exactly the context of any of this. My response has been to a rebuttal that essentially justifies the call by examining a number of other factors present in the game....all of which were "owned up" by the offending individuals/units.
You really can't say officials are blameless, the player made a choice, the official made a choice. The counter question is when the sister, multiple times in the same game, reached into the cookie jar Mom didn't "choose" to catch her. When "choosing" to speak to the media immediately following the game the officials chose to say, it's a technical violation of the rules....when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame.
The "rulebook made me do it" is a fairly weak argument in this case
"Blameless?"
"an official" did not make a choice, two officials make choices in this case.
"...when all could see that it had not been enforced prior to that point in the ballgame." You mean what ESPN showed? Have you ever enforced anything through talking, explaining, or warnings to coaches or players? I'm quite sure you do not know what the crew may have or did not say to any coaches before or during the game regarding conduct during the game.
My problem with your posts in this thread are "you say you can't own up to shortcomings you can't get better," but your augment uses words like "blame" and continues to strongly imply that two officials one call cost K-state the football game.
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No Jim, that's your inference.....in fact my opinion is at the total opposite, I'm convinced K-State would've lost the game for the very reasons you noted.
However, I do believe two wrongs don't make a right, so just because two officials threw the flag it doesn't matter and is irrelevant. I did watch the whole game and am capable of discerning commentator blather. There was in fact multiple occasions by both teams of celebrations that rose to the same level as the salute. I believe there would've been ZERO discussion about this topic if the officiating crew had chosen to enforce this particular part of the rulebook in the prior 58:40 of the game.
The officiating crew did not say immediately following the game, we warned K-State on multiple occasions and this was just the straw that broke the camels back. I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that? They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game
We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see.
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No Jim, that's your inference.....in fact my opinion is at the total opposite, I'm convinced K-State would've lost the game for the very reasons you noted.
However, I do believe two wrongs don't make a right, so just because two officials threw the flag it doesn't matter and is irrelevant. I did watch the whole game and am capable of discerning commentator blather. There was in fact multiple occasions by both teams of celebrations that rose to the same level as the salute. I believe there would've been ZERO discussion about this topic if the officiating crew had chosen to enforce this particular part of the rulebook in the prior 58:40 of the game.
The officiating crew did not say immediately following the game, we warned K-State on multiple occasions and this was just the straw that broke the camels back. I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that? They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game
We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see.
gotta disagree that two officials making the same call is irrelevant - in fact, it's very relevant as two identical judgments were made, certainly a factor to consider - what if 4 officials ruled UNS on this conduct? wouldn't that be a factor to consider when performing the "post mortem?"
Bottom line here - is that you firmly believe it should not have been flagged so your comments are in that direction - nothing wrong with that but others disagree with your view, and that's ok too
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hEaDbAnG
Is Jackhammer's argument possibly coming from a K-State fan who thinks his team was jobbed?
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I mean they did speak about this play after the game, why wouldn't they say that? They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game
We can sit around and make up hypotheticals about how it's a justifiable call, when the evidence to the contrary is there for all to see.
Excuse me but, what "evidence" it there for "who to see? What exactly does, "They hid behind the rulebook at that moment, when it was clear they had exercised judgment throughout the game" mean? Aren't we all supposed to stand behind the rulebook AND exercise judgment throughout the game?
You may be entitled to your opinion, Jackhammer, but it only covers you.
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I'm glad my initial post got so much discussion time, and I appreciate everything that was said. Maybe I went off a little too much at first, but as HACKED off as I was, I needed this site to get it off my chest. I'm just glad that I got so many points of view.
After calming down and reading all the responses, let me straighten out my perceived opinion. First of all, I completely respect what all officials have to go through in their careers. I know firsthand how tough it can be just to get to the level of HS, college, and pro officiating. My father was a baseball, basketball, and football official for nearly 20 years, and only missed out on D1 football because of injuries. I grew up with my opinions about this or that call, but I always had him there to give me the "official" point of view; a view that most fans don't get an opportunity to understand, and most probably wouldn't care to hear. It eventually turned me into a well informed fan and I often find myself being the defender of those calls I used to question.
I never said that the late game flag (or flags) in that particular game was incorrect. I just said it was a bad call. The fact that it was "officially" a penalty makes it easy for the supervising officials to say "it was the correct call", but it's like someone getting ticketed for driving 3 miles over the speed limit. Were you speeding? Yes. Should you have been pulled over? No. Why was that driver pulled over for such a minor offense while hundreds of other drivers are ignored for driving 10-15 mph over the limit. In this case most judges would throw out the charge and would likely reprimand the officer for wasting the courts time. I hear the officials justify the call by saying it's clearly in the rule book, and they say controlling "excessive celebration" has been a priority. I just question how many times the official (or officials) made a similar call during the season for something as "UN" expressive as a salute to the crowd. If they didn't call it regularly during the year why should they wait till the final moments of their final game of the season to make up for similar or worse infractions they previously ignored? No-calls happen hundreds of times per game, but that's for the good of the game. If every official had the mentality that every violation should be called we'd have 6 hour games and a lot less fans. As fans, we don't want to see a flag for every hold, every hand to the face, and every push and shove after the whistle. In 80% of plays, officials use an intelligent sense of restraint when it comes to these infractions. Thank god. Obviously, "restraint" was not in the vocabulary of 1 or 2 Big 10 officials at the end of that game.
As far as whether the end of game penalty would have made a difference? That's beside the point. My opinion wasn't about K-State losing out on a chance to win. I don't even like K-State. Prior to that call I was glad to see them getting beat. It's just too bad for the fans that the game was decided by a yellow flag that shouldn't have been thrown, instead of the play of 2 good teams that worked a whole season to get to that point.
On a little different note, I'd like to ask the opinion of you officials out there. Just for a second, let's assume that the words of the K-State player at the end of the game are true. He said the official that flagged him said, "Bad decision, Buddy", prior to throwing the flag. IF the comment was accurate are there any of you that want to defend that comment, or if you think it was wrong for him to say, what kind of reprimand should that official receive?
And for the response about how embarrassed I should be about the Big 10 Bowl record? I am embarrassed, but then I don't care about any of the teams that lost. I only care about my lowly Hawkeyes saving face and thumping the might MU Kittens. I guess the Big 12's got as much to be embarrassed about as the Big 10.
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Nobody defended the ALLEGED comment. If he did say that and it was proven, then he should be disciplined in accordance with his conference's policies.
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This is how ridiculous you want this issue to become, you want people to comment on the validity of something that may never have been said, to what end I cannot imagine. You happen to think the call should have gone one way, and blatantly assume that those who disagreed with your assessment were guilty of a lack of restraint. Apparently you believe you have the credentials to make that assessment, for everybody.
Life is all about different "slippery slopes" and how we choose to deal with them. Is going 12 miles over the speed limit really any worse than going 10 or 11 miles over the limit? Who decides that 12 is the magic number, and who is responsible for insuring everyone agrees with 12? Whose fault is when you run into a State Trooper who has decided 10 is the magic number? The only answer is that the number is 55 and each of us has a choice on when, and for how much we each choose to gamble on what the number "might" stretch into.
The bottom line is the K-State player chose the wrong time to gamble. I doubt there was any question about his understanding it was a gamble and he simply chose wrong. As for what may have happened at some other bowl game, or during the previous season, that's all part of the gamble. When you might be thinking 12 miles over the limit is acceptable and you run into a Trooper who set his limit at 10 mph, just inform him what the number might be in some other State, or what it was 2-3 months ago. It's likely you'll find the same response as what might have happened in another bowl game, or some game somewhere else in the past.
Whether I'd thow a flag, or choose to issue a warning, or choose to simply ignore the gesture doesn't matter any more than what you might have done. The only opinion that matters is that of the official (or Trooper) you're dealing with at that spot and point in time, and how much you might be willing to gamble.
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you put your hand in the cookie jar - you can't complain because sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get caught - I swear that's in our rule book somewhere.
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you put your hand in the cookie jar - you can't complain because sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get caught - I swear that's in our rule book somewhere.
zebra99, I think I saw that in the list of axioms the other day. :thumbup
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Another one of those things from Rule 13
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you put your hand in the cookie jar - you can't complain because sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get caught - I swear that's in our rule book somewhere.
Practising this signal almost got a buddy of mine in trouble with the police. Next time, he'll close the drapes.
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Was at the game with my son, brother, and two brother-in-laws. Fun time.