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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: zys on January 19, 2011, 10:59:26 AM
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Football is really growing fast in Brazil, but our biggest problem is officiating. For instance, only in 2010 we had official council responsible for officiating our games. We know we are far from being at least average, but we are working hard to get there.
We have many questions, about rules and mechanics, mostly mechanics, as we are still working on our mechanics. I would like to make some questions that, for most of you, will be really noob questions, but we have no one else to ask, so it would really help us grow here if you could help us. Many will notice that many questions will involve some differences between NFL and NCAA rules. That's because we have much more NFL games transmitted here so we're not very familiar with NCAA games.
Our first doubt is about Defensive Pass Interference. Any Brazilian official can make a right call if we are talking about NFL rules, but we don't really understand the NCAA rules. One thing I know is there's no Illegal Contact (NFL has it). So, as I see it, a Team B player may legally block downfield, as long as the pass has not been thrown yet (Rule 7-3-8-c-3) and the Team A player has not "passed" the Team B player (Rule 9-3-4-c). It's also legal to block a Team A player who's not in position to receive a pass (Rule 7-3-9-c). Is that correct?
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Football is really growing fast in Brazil, but our biggest problem is officiating. For instance, only in 2010 we had official council responsible for officiating our games. We know we are far from being at least average, but we are working hard to get there.
We have many questions, about rules and mechanics, mostly mechanics, as we are still working on our mechanics. I would like to make some questions that, for most of you, will be really noob questions, but we have no one else to ask, so it would really help us grow here if you could help us. Many will notice that many questions will involve some differences between NFL and NCAA rules. That's because we have much more NFL games transmitted here so we're not very familiar with NCAA games.
zys, welcome to the board. You will find that there are many, many officials on here who are more than happy to answer any questions you might have. They range from first year officials to officials with more than 20 years of experience at the D1 level. Please ask any and all questions you might have. Also, feel free to send me a personal message on here or an email at grant@refstripes.com if you have questions that you don't want to post in the forum.
Our first doubt is about Defensive Pass Interference. Any Brazilian official can make a right call if we are talking about NFL rules, but we don't really understand the NCAA rules. One thing I know is there's no Illegal Contact (NFL has it). So, as I see it, a Team B player may legally block downfield, as long as the pass has not been thrown yet (Rule 7-3-8-c-3) and the Team A player has not "passed" the Team B player (Rule 9-3-4-c). It's also legal to block a Team A player who's not in position to receive a pass (Rule 7-3-9-c). Is that correct?
I think you just about have it down for pass interference. You are correct that there is no illegal contact the way the NFL rule is written. There are 6 basic categories of defensive pass interference. They are:
- Not playing the ball
- Playing through the back
- Arm bar
- Cutting off the receiver's path to the ball
- Hook and turn
- Grab and restrict
Offensive pass interference includes blocking downfield, creating separation, and driving through the defender.
Just remember that to have pass interference, you have to have a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and it must be catchable by the receiver being interfered with.
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Just remember that to have pass interference, you have to have a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and it must be catchable by the receiver being interfered with.
Lastly, there must be contact.
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xys,
If you have purchased one already, I suggest to get a copy of Redding's Study Guide - NCAA Football. It is an excellent companion to read alongside the NCAA Football Rules & Interpretations. I think you can get one at Double S Distributors or Honigs.
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I could be making this up, but I seem to recall reading something somewhere a while back about a possible arrangement for you guys to take the BAFRA mechanics manual. Did that work out, or did I dream it?
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Just remember that to have pass interference, you have to have a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and it must be catchable by the receiver being interfered with.
Lastly, there must be contact.
Good point, Rick. :D
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Just remember that to have pass interference, you have to have a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and it must be catchable by the receiver being interfered with.
Lastly, there must be contact.
With some INTENT to impede. ;)
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Football is really growing fast in Brazil, but our biggest problem is officiating. For instance, only in 2010 we had official council responsible for officiating our games. We know we are far from being at least average, but we are working hard to get there.
We have many questions, about rules and mechanics, mostly mechanics, as we are still working on our mechanics. I would like to make some questions that, for most of you, will be really noob questions, but we have no one else to ask, so it would really help us grow here if you could help us. Many will notice that many questions will involve some differences between NFL and NCAA rules. That's because we have much more NFL games transmitted here so we're not very familiar with NCAA games.
Our first doubt is about Defensive Pass Interference. Any Brazilian official can make a right call if we are talking about NFL rules, but we don't really understand the NCAA rules. One thing I know is there's no Illegal Contact (NFL has it). So, as I see it, a Team B player may legally block downfield, as long as the pass has not been thrown yet (Rule 7-3-8-c-3) and the Team A player has not "passed" the Team B player (Rule 9-3-4-c). It's also legal to block a Team A player who's not in position to receive a pass (Rule 7-3-9-c). Is that correct?
Are you Mr Vasques from Rio?
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I could be making this up, but I seem to recall reading something somewhere a while back about a possible arrangement for you guys to take the BAFRA mechanics manual. Did that work out, or did I dream it?
I'm not aware of that, but sounds like a good idea.
xys,
If you have purchased one already, I suggest to get a copy of Redding's Study Guide - NCAA Football. It is an excellent companion to read alongside the NCAA Football Rules & Interpretations. I think you can get one at Double S Distributors or Honigs.
I'll check if they have international shipping.
Are you Mr Vasques from Rio?
No. My name is Thiago Zys and I live in Cuiabá. We could say Daniel Vasques is my mentor. He's not officiating anymore, as he's into other projects now.
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Are you Mr Vasques from Rio?
This sounds like film noir dialogue. :)
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I met Daniel during the Pan Am games down there. Even went out to one of his training sessions/games. He was trying to translate the rulebook which had to be a huge undertaking. Best wishes to him if you see him.
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I met Daniel during the Pan Am games down there. Even went out to one of his training sessions/games. He was trying to translate the rulebook which had to be a huge undertaking. Best wishes to him if you see him.
Sure, what's your name? Just to mention, I'm updating his work with the rulebook: he translated the 2008 version, I'm working on the current version. We will make sure we have the A. R. published this time.
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Hi Thiago
greetings from Germany.
You have found the best place to get advice and counselling. The point about the BAFRA manual is important - the have a really well thought our manual (last one I saw at least) that will help you a lot.
Good luck with all the work you are going to have, and don't be afraid that any question is too simple or stupid to post. If you are wondering about something there are at least 2 other people here that read the forum and also would like to know.
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I think you just about have it down for pass interference. You are correct that there is no illegal contact the way the NFL rule is written. There are 6 basic categories of defensive pass interference. They are:
- Not playing the ball
- Playing through the back
- Arm bar
- Cutting off the receiver's path to the ball
- Hook and turn
- Grab and restrict
Offensive pass interference includes blocking downfield, creating separation, and driving through the defender.
Just remember that to have pass interference, you have to have a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone and it must be catchable by the receiver being interfered with.
Let me get this straight: what is considered continuous contact stated on Rule 9-3-4-c? I mean, if a Team B player may block a Team A player, as long as the pass has not been thrown, he can only bump him?
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zys!
Welcome to the board! This is an excellent place to learn.
I had some contact with Vasques through IFAF, and please feel free to continue where he left off. You can reach me through my nickname with "@hotmail.com" added to it.
I strongly suggest you get the BAFRA/EFAF manual. It's the best written and most complete officiating manual I have seen. And I've seen the ones from NF, CCA, NFL stuff, JUCO stuff.
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This is a great place to get help with rules and more, but should supplement other formal training. I would recommend the books others have, and also clinics, film review, and classroom style training. I hope you're gettin some of that.
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Forgive my ignorance but what does Noob mean?
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it's an ethnic slur for south americans.
haha, no. it's short for NEWBIE. someone new to a forum, often.
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Clearly Chester does not play World of Warcraft.
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First, thanks to all for the wellcoming.
Now my next doubt is about A. R. 1-4-2-IV and V.
A.R. 1-4-2-IV says: "A33, an exception to the mandatory numbering rule, assumes a position on the line of scrimmage next to end A88. Before the snap, A88 shifts to a backfield position with the flanker on the opposite side of the line shifting to an end position on the line. RULING: Illegal formation. Since A33 is now an end, he is in an illegal position at the snap (live-ball foul). Penalty—five yards, previous spot."
A. R. 1-4-2-V says: "A33, an exception to the mandatory numbering rule, assumes a position on the line of scrimmage to the left of snapper A85, who is on the end of the line. All other Team A players on the line are to A33’s left. After a one-second stop, all players on the line except A85 legally shift to the other side of the ball, with A33 now positioned as an end. RULING: If the ball is snapped with A33 in this position, it is a foul for an illegal formation. A33 must be between the end players at the snap. Penalty—five yards, previous spot."
Why can't A33 be an end?
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Why can't A33 be an end?
Because he is an exception to the mandatory numbering. The players are designated as exceptions when the snapper touches (or simulates touching) the ball and will stay as exceptions unless there is a timeout. Rules 1-4-2-b-1 and 2.
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First, thanks to all for the wellcoming.
Now my next doubt is about A. R. 1-4-2-IV and V.
A.R. 1-4-2-IV says: "A33, an exception to the mandatory numbering rule, assumes a position on the line of scrimmage next to end A88. Before the snap, A88 shifts to a backfield position with the flanker on the opposite side of the line shifting to an end position on the line. RULING: Illegal formation. Since A33 is now an end, he is in an illegal position at the snap (live-ball foul). Penalty—five yards, previous spot."
A. R. 1-4-2-V says: "A33, an exception to the mandatory numbering rule, assumes a position on the line of scrimmage to the left of snapper A85, who is on the end of the line. All other Team A players on the line are to A33’s left. After a one-second stop, all players on the line except A85 legally shift to the other side of the ball, with A33 now positioned as an end. RULING: If the ball is snapped with A33 in this position, it is a foul for an illegal formation. A33 must be between the end players at the snap. Penalty—five yards, previous spot."
Why can't A33 be an end?
A33 was an exception to the numbering rule which was allowable for scrimmage kick formation. He originally assumed a position as a "tackle" (ineligible by position) or restricted lineman and will remain as such during the down.
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Because he is an exception to the mandatory numbering. The players are designated as exceptions when the snapper touches (or simulates touching) the ball and will stay as exceptions unless there is a timeout. Rules 1-4-2-b-1 and 2.
A33 was an exception to the numbering rule which was allowable for scrimmage kick formation. He originally assumed a position as a "tackle" (ineligible by position) or restricted lineman and will remain as such during the down.
OK, I see it. Thanks.
On A. R. 3-5-2-VII, the ruling states a penalty of five or 15 yards "depending upon defensive coverage". How does that work?
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On A. R. 3-5-2-VII, the ruling states a penalty of five or 15 yards "depending upon defensive coverage". How does that work?
If the defense doesn't cover the non-player, it's 15, if he is covered it is only five. Basically, if the defense is fooled into thinking he isn't going to play, it's 15.
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If the defense doesn't cover the non-player, it's 15, if he is covered it is only five. Basically, if the defense is fooled into thinking he isn't going to play, it's 15.
OK, thanks.
On A. R. 6-3-2-II Team A gets the ball, besides their touching violation, but A. R. 6-3-2-I states that Team B "may play the ball with the assurance that it later may elect the ball at any spot of illegal touching". So why on A. R. 6-3-2-II Team B can't get the ball on the spot of illegal touching?
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OK, thanks.
On A. R. 6-3-2-II Team A gets the ball, besides their touching violation, but A. R. 6-3-2-I states that Team B "may play the ball with the assurance that it later may elect the ball at any spot of illegal touching". So why on A. R. 6-3-2-II Team B can't get the ball on the spot of illegal touching?
An accepted penalty nullifies the illegal touching provision.
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On A. R. 6-3-2-II Team A gets the ball, besides their touching violation, but A. R. 6-3-2-I states that Team B "may play the ball with the assurance that it later may elect the ball at any spot of illegal touching". So why on A. R. 6-3-2-II Team B can't get the ball on the spot of illegal touching?
What is the major difference between the two ARs?
Hint: Read 6-3-2-b.
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An accepted penalty nullifies the illegal touching provision.
What is the major difference between the two ARs?
Hint: Read 6-3-2-b.
OK, thanks.
Now, on A. R. 6-3-2-V Team B holding penalty is declined by rule, because of the score by Team A, so the ball goes to Team B because of the illegal touching. Rule 10-2-5-a-2 says that the penalties for no-personal fouls by the nonscoring team "are not enforced on try or the succeeding try. Such penalties are declined by rule unless enforcement is made possible by illegal touching of a kick during the down". How does this enforcement works? Isn't this the case of A. R. 6-3-2-V?
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How does this enforcement works? Isn't this the case of A. R. 6-3-2-V?
Think basic spot. See A.R. 6-3-2-VII.
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Think basic spot. See A.R. 6-3-2-VII.
So if A20 on A. R. 6-3-2-V didn't score Team A would've kept the ball?
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So if A20 on A. R. 6-3-2-V didn't score Team A would've kept the ball?
Yes.
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Zys - Welcome to THE best place to be for officials.
I also remember Daniel Vasques. He and I swapped a bunch of E-mails regularly for about 2 years answering his questions about Rules. It was when he was translating the Rule book during your change to NCAA rules from NFL Rules. Happy to continue where he left off if I can be of help to you. Feel free to send me a private message so we can swap E-mail addresses.
As for mechanics manuals - of course I have to agree with what dommer1 said about the BAFRA/EFAF manual. I'm the BAFRA Deputy President and I had discussions with Daniel about Brazil adopting the BAFRA/EFAF mechanics manual. Happy to continue those discussions with you. Many countries have adopted it as their countries manual, so you wouldn't be the first.
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Zys - Welcome to THE best place to be for officials.
I also remember Daniel Vasques. He and I swapped a bunch of E-mails regularly for about 2 years answering his questions about Rules. It was when he was translating the Rule book during your change to NCAA rules from NFL Rules. Happy to continue where he left off if I can be of help to you. Feel free to send me a private message so we can swap E-mail addresses.
As for mechanics manuals - of course I have to agree with what dommer1 said about the BAFRA/EFAF manual. I'm the BAFRA Deputy President and I had discussions with Daniel about Brazil adopting the BAFRA/EFAF mechanics manual. Happy to continue those discussions with you. Many countries have adopted it as their countries manual, so you wouldn't be the first.
Thank you. I would really like to use BAFRA manual here.
Continuing with my questions, when is a lineman restrict? This is quoted on the A. R.'s but I didn't found the definition of a restrict lineman.
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Continuing with my questions, when is a lineman restrict? This is quoted on the A. R.'s but I didn't found the definition of a restrict lineman.
See rule 7-1-3-a-4-c.
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See rule 7-1-3-a-4-c.
So it is a player between the snapper and the player on the end of the line. But is the snapper also a restricted lineman?
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So it is a player between the snapper and the player on the end of the line. But is the snapper also a restricted lineman?
Yes, rule 7-1-3-a-4-b.
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As we are on the topic of offensive formations, I have many doubts about this. If an offensive formation has five lineman on the LOS numbered 50-79 and A82 and A88 on the same side of the formation and both on the LOS, with A88 wider, only A88 is eligible, correct? So A82 can't go more than three yards beyond the LOS. If he does is it illegal formation or ineligible receiver downfield?
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Nothing illegal about the formation, it is just not very efficient as it gives the offense a smaller number of eligible receivers. Usually it is because of a mistake by one of the receivers, but I have seen some teams in the UK who deliberately line up in formations like this for running plays. But if there is a pass that crosses the NZ and A82 does indeed go more than 3yds downfield then a foul for ineligible downfield.
Our philosophy is that the wing official should do what he can to make the formation legal. If I can move 6 inches one way and now I can see a blade of grass between them, then A88 is off the line and I wont have any fouls if a pass is thrown. At the end of the play, I'll try and let the kid know about it so they don't make the same error again. No-one comes to games to see me throw my flag.
A follow-on question is which official should be expected to see this foul?
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A follow-on question is which official should be expected to see this foul?
The line official would be the one to make this call. He is the one who knows for certain that the receiver is covered up. The flag should be thrown after a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone.
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The line official would be the one to make this call. He is the one who knows for certain that the receiver is covered up. The flag should be thrown after a legal forward pass crosses the neutral zone.
I guess this answers my next question: on running plays there's no foul for ineligible receiver downfield, correct? Is this valid even if it is a delay run, or if the QB was looking for a receiver and, when he didn't find any, he ran?
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I guess this answers my next question: on running plays there's no foul for ineligible receiver downfield, correct? Is this valid even if it is a delay run, or if the QB was looking for a receiver and, when he didn't find any, he ran?
That is correct. In order to have an ineligible receiver down field, there must be a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone. A common screen pass play by many teams in America is one where the linemen go down field at the snap like it is a running play. Then the QB drops back and throws a pass to a receiver at the line of scrimmage. When executed properly, the pass is caught behind or at the line of scrimmage with linemen down field from the receiver to block for him. None of the linemen are down field illegally because the pass doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.
Here is an example of this type of screen pass. Watch the widest receiver and ignore the commentary. ;D
[yt=425,350]mxa4Vv3GUuc[/yt]
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Still on offensive formation, I've on NFL games players with ineligible numbers report to the referee as eligible and play that way. I didn't find this anyware on NCAA rules. Is this possible on NCAA?
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Still on offensive formation, I've on NFL games players with ineligible numbers report to the referee as eligible and play that way. I didn't find this anyware on NCAA rules. Is this possible on NCAA?
No such provison under NCAA rules. I have had players try to report, but they were confused between rule sets. At no time can a player #50-79 be an elgible receiver to first touch the pass.
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No, not possible. If you have a 50-79 number on offense then no matter what you do you are not eligible to be first to touch a forward pass (whether it crosses the NZ or not).
You are asking all the same questions that Daniel asked me a couple of years ago. I'll try and find the E-mails that he and I exchanged and send them to you, that might help some...
UPDATE
I found them real easy, already sent.
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Still on offensive formation, I've on NFL games players with ineligible numbers report to the referee as eligible and play that way. I didn't find this anyware on NCAA rules. Is this possible on NCAA?
NFL has a different rule. In the NFL, they are required to have an eligible receiver on the end of the line. Since teams often want an extra lineman rather than a receiver, the NFL allows players numberd 50-79 to report as eligible receivers on a play by play basis. While they ARE eligible to catch a pass, most are reporting simply to comply with the eligible receiver on the end of the line rule. With playing rosters of only 45 players, players often have to play dual roles.
Since the NCAA does not require an eligible receiver on the end of the line, the reporting exception is not a rule that has found it's way to the NCAA. And since NCAA teams usually have far more than 45 players, so it is easier for them to find that extra blocking lineman.
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An offensive formation has five lineman on the LOS numbered 50-79 and A82 and A88 on the same side of the formation and both on the LOS, with A88 wider, only A88 is eligible.
Take zys formation above. Assume A82 & A88 are on the L's side of the formation. Now, add one receiver outside the tackle on the opposite side of the formation and 2 set backs.
Should the B key A82?
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Take zys formation above. Assume A82 & A88 are on the L's side of the formation. Now, add one receiver outside the tackle on the opposite side of the formation and 2 set backs.
Should the B key A82?
I believe so, but I'm not sure.
No such provison under NCAA rules. I have had players try to report, but they were confused between rule sets. At no time can a player #50-79 be an elgible receiver to first touch the pass.
And the other way around? Is it possible? Is it legal to have an offensive formation with four lineman numbered 50-79 and one player not numbered 50-79 declare himself ineligible and play as an ineligible player? I'm referring to normal situations, not the exception stated on rules 1-4-2-b-1 and 2.
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And the other way around? Is it possible? Is it legal to have an offensive formation with four lineman numbered 50-79 and one player not numbered 50-79 declare himself ineligible and play as an ineligible player? I'm referring to normal situations, not the exception stated on rules 1-4-2-b-1 and 2.
Nope, it's not possible.
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Again with offensive formations... A player in lateral motion at the snap, facing the opponent's goal line, with his head breaking the plane of the waistline of the snapper, is on the line of scrimmage?
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Only backs can be in motion at the snap. See 7.1.3.b.4: "One player may be in motion, but not in motion toward his opponent’s goal line. A lineman may not be in motion at the snap."
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... At no time can a player #50-79 be an elgible receiver to first touch the pass.
Technical clarification - he can't touch the pass until it has been touched by an opponent or an official (not necessarily first touch). A teammate might touch it first, then he touches it (intentionally). That's a foul.
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Again with offensive formations... A player in lateral motion at the snap, facing the opponent's goal line, with his head breaking the plane of the waistline of the snapper, is on the line of scrimmage?
Technically yes. So as NVFOA_Ump correctly said, only a back (which this guy isnt) can be in motion.
But don't nit pick this sort of thing. If you can move 5cm to the left and now you can see a "blade of grass" between him and the linemen, then he's a back and the motion is legal. Have a quiet word at the end of the play with the player, his captain or his coach so they know.
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Agree 100% that we don't want to be too nit-picky here. If we've got 11 in the game with 7 on the line and the guy in motion has a "blade of grass" between him and the linemen then most wing officials let that go these days. On the other hand if he's actually in a position "with his head breaking the plane of the waistline of the snapper" while he's still moving sideways the "blade of grass" can't fit in there.
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Agree 100% that we don't want to be too nit-picky here. If we've got 11 in the game with 7 on the line and the guy in motion has a "blade of grass" between him and the linemen then most wing officials let that go these days. On the other hand if he's actually in a position "with his head breaking the plane of the waistline of the snapper" while he's still moving sideways the "blade of grass" can't fit in there.
If this is the case, what's the situation? Illegal motion?
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If this is the case, what's the situation? Illegal motion?
Certainly another of those judgment calls, but yes, the correct call would be Illegal Motion since to be legal motion we need the minimum "blade of grass" separation so we can say that the man in motion is not moving forward and is in the backfield at the snap. Another judgment option would be to advise the potential offender that he needs to stay in the backfield if he continues his motion, and the next time he doesn't he'll get the flag. A little preventive officiating.
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Another judgment option would be to advise the potential offender that he needs to stay in the backfield if he continues his motion, and the next time he doesn't he'll get the flag. A little preventive officiating.
Not a good idea to threaten calling a foul the next time.
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Not a good idea to threaten calling a foul the next time.
Maybe not, but that is precisely what is done for certain conditions at the FBS level, as directed by the coordinators. Wide guys (or motion guys) not lined up to be clear as whether they are on the line or in the backfield, motion guys shaving fractionally forward at the snap, defenders with hands or facemask in the NZ, backs leaning forward ever so slightly at the snap, etc. Warn 'em the first time, notify his position coach that he was warned, then bust 'em after that.
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Maybe not, but that is precisely what is done for certain conditions at the FBS level, as directed by the coordinators. Wide guys (or motion guys) not lined up to be clear as whether they are on the line or in the backfield, motion guys shaving fractionally forward at the snap, defenders with hands or facemask in the NZ, backs leaning forward ever so slightly at the snap, etc. Warn 'em the first time, notify his position coach that he was warned, then bust 'em after that.
Explaining what's legal and illegal is good.
Threatening to flag it the next time is asking for trouble.
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Not a good idea to threaten calling a foul the next time.
I agree my choice of words should have been more politically correct. Simply stating that the motion was not legal and why would suffice.
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Thanks everyone for answering. I believe that now I can move on to a new topic.
A. R. 3-5-2-IX has a situation with late substitutions by Team A. It clearly states that Team B has the same rights to substitute players and, therefor, the umpire tries to prevent the snap, but can't. My doubt is: if Team A makes late substitutions, gets set for the snap while Team B is substituting in response, in the case the umpire does prevent the snap, but the play clock expires, what is the ruling?
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See A.R. 3-5-2-V.
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I strongly suggest you get the BAFRA/EFAF manual. It's the best written and most complete officiating manual I have seen. And I've seen the ones from NF, CCA, NFL stuff, JUCO stuff.
I'm liking the BAFRA manual for its portability being digital rather than hard copy, making access immediate and not waiting 2 weeks for delivery - and being digital you can do a online search within the document.
Which do you prefer BAFRA or CCA and why ?
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See A.R. 3-5-2-V.
A. R. 3-5-2-V states that either team may be charged with delay of game. In the case I mentioned is Team B the one that fouled?
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A. R. 3-5-2-V states that either team may be charged with delay of game. In the case I mentioned is Team B the one that fouled?
It depends on how promptly you deem team B to have reacted. If team A substituted so late that team B had no chance, it's a foul on team A, but if team B delays, it's on team B.
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I'm liking the BAFRA manual for its portability being digital rather than hard copy, making access immediate and not waiting 2 weeks for delivery - and being digital you can do a online search within the document.
Which do you prefer BAFRA or CCA and why ?
For me, the BAFRA/EFAF manual obviously.
Even thought I'm a bit of a Luddite (I still buy music on vinyl, I still wear stirrup socks, I like to be able to hold a Rule book or Mech Manual in my hand) I have to admit find it quite useful to be able to do online searches.
For a large country like Australia, I guess the portability issue helps too. I don't know what the Australian postal service is like for speed and price but however fast they are, internet is faster and cheaper. I think the pricing for E-copies and license to translate into a countries own language are reasonable
It would be good if it became the standard for the Rest of the World. There are already reps from many different countries on the Ctte that writes it. I guess I'm somewhat biased as I'm one of that Ctte.
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Steve - why do you think its better than CCA ?
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Steve - why do you think its better than CCA ?
Tony - sent you a PM. Dont want us to be hijacking zys's thread....
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Tony - sent you a PM. Dont want us to be hijacking zys's thread....
It was interesting...
Continuing with my questions...
"A player blocked by an opponent into a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone shall not, while inbounds, be deemed to have touched the
kick" (Rule 6-3-4). In NFL rules, if the blocked player was active blocking, the touching is not disregarded. Is it true in NCAA rules too?
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It was interesting...
Continuing with my questions...
"A player blocked by an opponent into a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone shall not, while inbounds, be deemed to have touched the
kick" (Rule 6-3-4). In NFL rules, if the blocked player was active blocking, the touching is not disregarded. Is it true in NCAA rules too?
You won't find a definitive answer to your question. The concept of "active or passive" as it relates to a player that gets forced into a loose ball is not addressed officially by NCAA rules or any interpretation. Those concepts have been offered by NFL folks to NCAA folks. Some NCAA folks may use those concepts, but I'm sure it is, at best, conference specific, if even that formal. Certainly, it is something that is worthy of attention by RR, at least within the "Philosophy Document," if not by formal interpretation.
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It was interesting...
In that case, Tony please feel free to forward my PM to zys, I dont have a copy of it or would do it myself...
Continuing with my questions...
"A player blocked by an opponent into a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone shall not, while inbounds, be deemed to have touched the
kick" (Rule 6-3-4). In NFL rules, if the blocked player was active blocking, the touching is not disregarded. Is it true in NCAA rules too?
None of the senior US clinicians has ever told us in the UK to call it like the NFL do. So we don't. But it's a great question, I'll be sure to ask our clinician this year about it.
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Sounds like the concept behind something I read about "The Dance". The gist of it was, when you have two players engaged in a block, and the ball hits one of them, forced touching depends on whether the guy hit was leading the dance.
If he was, and therefore was winning the block, he therefore logically can't have been blocked into the ball, and he's touched it.
If he wasn't, and therefore was losing the block, he therefore must have been blocked into the ball.
It sounded like such a sound philosophy that I never questioned it or double-checked to see if it was in our manual...
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Another NFL-NCAA rules difference: I believe that in NFL rules a fair catch signal loses effect when the ball hits the ground, is it the same in NCAA rules?
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Another NFL-NCAA rules difference: I believe that in NFL rules a fair catch signal loses effect when the ball hits the ground, is it the same in NCAA rules?
Can the receiver catch the ball after it hits the ground?
Which effect are you inquirying about?
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Can the receiver catch the ball after it hits the ground?
Which effect are you inquirying about?
Take this example:
The kick is in flight when the PR signals for the fair catch. Before he catches it, the ball hits the ground and bounces in his direction. He then catches the ball. In this case, can he advance the ball and be tackled?
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zys - think of it this way:
A fair catch signal precludes the signaler and all teammates from advancing ball, and precludes the signaler from blocking. If the official is on top of his game he will kill the play once B gets possession and you need not worry about advancing or tackling.
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Take this example:
The kick is in flight when the PR signals for the fair catch. Before he catches it, the ball hits the ground and bounces in his direction. He then catches the ball. In this case, can he advance the ball and be tackled?
Diablo was trying to get you to check the definition of a catch versus a recovery. Once the ball hits the ground, it is no longer in flight, thus, can't be "caught." Fair catch rules apply to "catches" only - not to recoveries. There is no such thing as a fair recovery. ;)
But, one of the provisions of the fair catch rules is that, once any B player makes ANY kind of signal - valid or invalid - no one on B will be able to advance the ball - period - caught or recovered. Only a player that makes a VALID signal and CATCHES the ball is afforded fair catch protection. i.e., he can't be tackled or blocked after he completes the catch. Any other B player that catches or recovers is prohibited from advancing, AND he will not draw a foul if he is simply tackled or blocked after the catch.