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Football Officiating => National Federation Discussion => Topic started by: GoGoGo on March 01, 2011, 07:48:26 AM
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This should make for some interesting conversation. In Fed Rules can the snapper lift the ball?
Can the snapper leave the huddle come to the LOS and lift the ball? Lets say he is lifting the ball to get the strings laces positioned where he wants them and not to draw off the defense.
Is that good or do you want me to modify anything else? tiphat: :bOW :bOW
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Our U's had this discussion two seasons ago. I remembered the rule citing before, but it has slipped my mind. 3.3. something maybe. It said that teh center may lift the ball to adjust it. It never said how high or anything really specific. but that was two seasons ago and I didnt look in last years rule book for it.
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7-1-2:
The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.
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What AB said. Also, once he puts his hands on the ball he can't remove both hands prior to the snap or it's a foul.
So a snapper can come to the line, rotate the ball around its long axis, then remove ONE of the two hands from the ball and all is legal.
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to minimize the chance of a problem, on the first play from scrimmage the Umpire can ask each snapper to set the ball on the ground the way he wants to find it (laces up, laces down, laces right or left) and tell the snapper if he doesn't find it the way he wants it, to tell the Umpire who will re-set it, but that he is not to lift the ball.
It's really no big deal to remember how each team's snapper wants to find the ball and it will reduce the chance of a silly situation dramatically. If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off. When you remember to place the ball the way he wants, it makes for a smooth evening/afternoon.
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to minimize the chance of a problem, on the first play from scrimmage the Umpire can ask each snapper to set the ball on the ground the way he wants to find it (laces up, laces down, laces right or left) and tell the snapper if he doesn't find it the way he wants it, to tell the Umpire who will re-set it, but that he is not to lift the ball.
It's really no big deal to remember how each team's snapper wants to find the ball and it will reduce the chance of a silly situation dramatically. If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off. When you remember to place the ball the way he wants, it makes for a smooth evening/afternoon.
Why would you tell him not to lift the ball when the rules specifically allow him to lift the ball?
I appreciate that you are going to try to put it the way he wants it. But if you don't, you can't "bite his head off" for doing something that by rule is allowed.
Or is this more of your "common sense" over the rule book officiating?
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Why would you tell him not to lift the ball when the rules specifically allow him to lift the ball? I appreciate that you are going to try to put it the way he wants it. But if you don't, you can't "bite his head off" for doing something that by rule is allowed. Or is this more of your "common sense" over the rule book officiating?
Although not always easily visible at first, the Rule Book is absolutely intended to be all about common sense. We don't want to forget that the participants in this game are "student" athletes, and despite all the pomp and pagentry, there are times their retention skills might need subtle reinforcement.
Sometimes, not always, before reinforcement can actually happen it's necessary to secure the studens's attention.
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When I worked the U position I tried to place the ball the way the snapper liked it but I would never tell him not to pick up the ball because he is allowed to by rule.
That is not preventive officiating - that is making up your own rules (IMHO).
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What AB said. Also, once he puts his hands on the ball he can't remove both hands prior to the snap or it's a foul.
So a snapper can come to the line, rotate the ball around its long axis, then remove ONE of the two hands from the ball and all is legal.
Absolutely correct by the technical definition of the rule. Hopefully in pratice this is not something anyone should nit too much. Talk to the snappers about what they should and shouldn't do but unless he's doing something to move the ball forward a lot when inches matter or he does something that simulates a snap, I'm not flagging it. There's a good saying I've learned: "don't trouble trouble" This is a great example. If you want to be a rule book official, go for it. I guarantee it will be a deal breaker if you are trying to advance to higher levels.
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GoGo
Not to be smart but the strings are called laces.
Now for your question. I like the others place the ball the way that the center requests but should I forget or be distracted I am not going to say anything about him making an adjustment. To define adjustment, he may pick the ball an inch or two off the ground and rotate it to adjust the laces position.
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I put the laces up for both teams; let them adjust it and snap the ball. I have watched several teams that have the laces one way for a pass and the laces the other way for a running play. With the laces up everytime it helps eliminate a quick snap (preventive officiating).
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If asked, I'll place the ball where they want when they're allowed to choose. But as for the laces position, they can deal with themselves. I let the snappers know they can turn the ball to get laces where they prefer, but nothing more. If our high school kids can't handle that, then we've got bigger problems.
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This is amazing:
"If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off."
"To define adjustment, he may pick the ball an inch or two off the ground and rotate it to adjust the laces position."
"I let the snappers know they can turn the ball to get laces where they prefer, but nothing more."
How are ANY of these statements recitifed with:
7-1-2:
The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.
The snapper can lift the ball. He isn't limited to an inch or two, he isn't limited it to rotating only, he isn't to have his head bitten off. He can lift the ball for rotation. and it's legal!
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Over here in the UK, we worried about this sort of thing. Granted we use NCAA rules not Fed, but we asked our guest US clinician about it one year.
His advice was...
There's a lot more artificial turf fields being used these days and the wind can blow the ball away. Figure out which way the wind is blowing and then put the ball laces down so that the laces stop the ball rolling away. Let the snapper adjust it however he likes. Its one of the few things the kids CAN usefully pick up from watching NFL. Those guys adjust the heck out of the ball, the D don't react and no-one cares.
So whether you are on real grass or artificial, get into the habit of consistently putting it laces down.
The only time to care about ball adjustment is if the wings see the snapper come up to the ball and move it way forward. Usually its because the snapper is coming too close to the ball before he gets into his stance and has to move tha ball forward to get comfortable. One warning and if that's ignored then a flag will soon fix that in my experience.
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If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off.
LOL
This is amazing:
"If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off."
Rest easy AB.
By using common sense and an intelligent determination of the rules, the above idiocy, if ever even contemplated by any rational thinking human, should simply be ignored. ;)
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Guys - thanks for your opinions and comments on this subject.
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This is amazing:
"If the snapper forgets and lifts the ball more than you like him to, gently correct him the first time, after that bite his head off."
"To define adjustment, he may pick the ball an inch or two off the ground and rotate it to adjust the laces position."
"I let the snappers know they can turn the ball to get laces where they prefer, but nothing more." (This is my statement, RickKY)
How are ANY of these statements recitifed with:
7-1-2:
The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.
The snapper can lift the ball. He isn't limited to an inch or two, he isn't limited it to rotating only, he isn't to have his head bitten off. He can lift the ball for rotation. and it's legal!
AB, when I talk to the snappers I explain to him exactly how he can rotate the ball according to the rule you reference, nothing more. My point being, he can do it himsielf without asking me. I'm not going to position the ball for him, other than soppting it, which I mostly do with laces straight up. If he wants them to the left or right, he can do it. How is my statement contrary to the rule?
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LOL
Rest easy AB.
By using common sense and an intelligent determination of the rules, the above idiocy, if ever even contemplated by any rational thinking human, should simply be ignored. ;)
It’s truly laughable how petty, picky and presumptuous some choose to get in responding to, what seemed like a fairly obvious, sarcastic exaggeration. For those of you who interpreted my remark to believe it suggested actually contacting the snappers head with my teeth, relax and let me assure you it was intended as a metaphor, and no suggestion of decapitation was intended. Forgive me for presuming that those reading the comment would have some personal experience with, the unique interaction and banter between Umpires and linemen and didn’t think detailed explanation was necessary. I was also seeking to avoid some of the usual,” weeping and gnashing of teeth” about a lack of brevity, and assumed eveyone, reading this link, knew the details of the relevant rules.
Offering to place the ball, where the snapper likes it, is NOT intended as any big deal or “silver bullet”. It’s a simple, easy habit to get into, starts the game on a conciliatory, helpful note and may (not guaranteed) help set a cooperative tone that can be very helpful, not only with the snapper, but with those around him. If it seems uncomfortable or awkard, don't consider it.
It would be a lot more accurate, and oh so proper, to recite the detauls of NF:2-40 and 7-1-1,2 & 3 as repetitive reminders to a snapper who may be somewhat careless with his handling of the ball, but sometimes a simple, “Hey, don’t do that” accomplishes the same result without all the dialog. It seems to work better if that tone has somewhat been “worked up to”, however.
Sometimes (sadly, not always) if you’ve taken the time, extended the effort to establish an informal working (in the trenches) relationship with young linemen during a game, they respond remarkably different and more favorably to suggestion, producing results even better than by “intelligent determination of the rules”. However, it may not be a good idea for those who may have difficulty lowering themselves from some, self constructed lofty perch above the fray, to communicate on such a direct level, nor is it likely they would be believable or successful in doing so.
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I was also seeking to avoid some of the usual,” weeping and gnashing of teeth” about a lack of brevity, and assumed eveyone, reading this link, knew the details of the relevant rules.
editted because after posting I realized I violating my own vow of not wasting my breath this year.
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AB, when I talk to the snappers I explain to him exactly how he can rotate the ball according to the rule you reference, nothing more. My point being, he can do it himsielf without asking me. I'm not going to position the ball for him, other than soppting it, which I mostly do with laces straight up. If he wants them to the left or right, he can do it. How is my statement contrary to the rule?
Because your post said he could "TURN the ball, but nothing else". He IS allowed something else, he can LIFT the ball as well.
If you allow the lift, fine no problem, we are on the same page. But I took it from your post that he could turn ONLY, and not lift it to do so.
We had one umpire this year that flagged our left handed snapper (on a try) because he rolled the ball to get the laces to the proper side. His explanation was he "changed the location of the ball". Of course, I was later informed by a member of his association that he was "teaching us a lesson" because of an earlier incident where we showed we were right and he was wrong on a rule (during that conference, the R even said, "Wow, I learned something tonight"). A real FU call. Class act.
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editted because after posting I realized I violating my own vow of not wasting my breath this year.
Thank you Mike, I appreciate not having to deal with breath you refrain from wasting.
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We had one umpire this year that flagged our left handed snapper (on a try) because he rolled the ball to get the laces to the proper side. His explanation was he "changed the location of the ball".
Then teach your snapper to lift, rotate, & replace the ball as he's allowed to do by rule. ;) >:D
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Yeah, I didn't see anywhere in the rules where a snapper is allowed to roll the ball on the ground prior to the snap.
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The only time to care about ball adjustment is if the wings see the snapper come up to the ball and move it way forward. Usually its because the snapper is coming too close to the ball before he gets into his stance and has to move tha ball forward to get comfortable. One warning and if that's ignored then a flag will soon fix that in my experience.
Heh - that reminds me of the first snap infraction whistle I ever had. Third and short, and when the offense broke the huddle, the snapper put his feet down straddling the football, grabbed the ball, and stretched it as far forward as he could reach. They started at third and about 9 inches, and by the time the snapper was done lining up, the ball was a half yard past the front stake. ^flag
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I sure hope you gave him the first down.
I have had a few wings call snap infractions on the snapper because he picked the ball straight up to rotate the laces.
hEaDbAnG ^no ^flag
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Because your post said he could "TURN the ball, but nothing else". He IS allowed something else, he can LIFT the ball as well.
If you allow the lift, fine no problem, we are on the same page. But I took it from your post that he could turn ONLY, and not lift it to do so.
We had one umpire this year that flagged our left handed snapper (on a try) because he rolled the ball to get the laces to the proper side. His explanation was he "changed the location of the ball". Of course, I was later informed by a member of his association that he was "teaching us a lesson" because of an earlier incident where we showed we were right and he was wrong on a rule (during that conference, the R even said, "Wow, I learned something tonight"). A real FU call. Class act.
I keep telling you that you guys use the wrong association. When will you listen to me? ;D
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What happened to common sense and impact on the play? Yes, by rule it may be a foul, but is that a call you would be proud of?
If the snapper does what was posted earlier and moves it forward, then yes, that changes things. If the snapper lifts, rotates, (or folds, spindles or mutilates for that matter) the ball when a snap is not imminent and gains no advantage in doing so - except perhaps a better grip on the ball, what impact does that have?
Well, I guess mutilating would have an impact, but other than that, come on. Very rarely, if at all, is any advantage gained in doing that.
In the original post, it sounded as if the snapper left the huddle, but the rest of the team was still in it. The snap is not imminent, so any intent to deceive is lacking, Why look for trouble?
For what it's worth, I will ask at the beginning of the game how they want the laces, but if I forget, I have no problem with him making the adjustment.
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It's really no big deal to remember how each team's snapper wants to find the ball ... When you remember to place the ball the way he wants, it makes for a smooth evening/afternoon.
I *LIKE* this. Consider it put into my bag of tricks, if I remember.
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As a former center and 15 years as an U, I would always place the ball with the laces straight up, let the snapper rotate the ball as he needs it for the type of play they are going to run. On a regular snap to the QB, I had the laces away from my fingers so they were ready for the QB to grip. On a shotgun/deep snap, I gripped the laces. So the latitude U's gave me as a player to place the ball as I needed it (not wanted it) was appreciated. I was always very aware to just spin the ball, trying not to lift it and definitely not moving it forward. In almost 8 yrs of snapping the ball, I never had a foul called because I moved the ball prior to the rest of the team getting to the LOS.
So when I moved to the other side, I gave my snappers the same latitude I had as a player. No advantage gained by lifting it an inch or two or rotating it or even rolling it somewhat. If I noticed a snapper move the ball forward, I would talk to him and 99% of the time, no more problems. And I damn sure am not going to talk to the snapper as he comes to the line, he will probably forget the snapcount, based on personal experience.
Just another point we as officials do not want to be too good. Nonsafety related, no one but the center and U will know what happened, hell most of the time a center comes to the line, the D isn't even in its set as they are waiting to see what formation the O comes out in. No advantage gained, no one trying to cheat, no aggrieved parties and no one knows what he did, just one player trying to get a grip on the ball so he can start the madness.
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No advantage gained by lifting it an inch or two or rotating it or even rolling it somewhat.
Or 4" or 6" or 2'. The rule specifically ALLOWS the snapper to lift the ball in order to rotate it. There is no distance limit. If he picks it up, rotates it while keeping the long axis parallel to the sideline, and puts it back down, leave him alone!
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AB, Exactly, have never put a limit on it, it is actually a nonissue as far as i am concerned, never had it called on me and never called it on a snapper. Alot more important things to concern myself with before the snap. never had a coach say anything about it either one way or the other.
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Somehow, the WH figured that we needed to give the offense another crack at third down, from a distance that the center couldn't make a first down before he snapped the ball.
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On this subject after reading the NCAA rules 7-1-3 & 7-1-4 can the snapper rotate the ball on its axis ?
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As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion.
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Here's the thing, 7-1-4-b-2 states
The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders or buttocks
there is no exception for "As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion." and the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.
So is this an unwritten but accepted practice ?
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the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.
Sure it does, in 7-1-2:
The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate
end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.
He can lift the ball, he can rotate it on it's long axis, he just flip it end for end.
Not just an accepted practice, it's a rule.
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Thx AB but is that NFHS rules isn't it ? I'm referring to NCAA.
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Thx AB but is that NFHS rules isn't it ? I'm referring to NCAA.
Well, you are on a NFHS rules board, which is why I quoted NFHS rules!
But in NCAA, 7-1-3 says he may not lift the ball, but there is no restriction on him rotating it as long as he does not simulate the snap in doing so.
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Well, you are on a NFHS rules board, which is why I quoted NFHS rules!
True but as the discussion had ended I thought no one would mind.
Here's where I am confused
7-1-4-b-2 says
The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks
rotating the ball isn't moving it ?
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I guess you can assume that it means the position of the ball (left/right, forwards).
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Aussie, You may be confusing what is allowed by the snapper when he breaks the huddle and initially adjusts the ball and what he is allowed to do once he establishes himself in the set position.
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Sure it does, in 7-1-2:
The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation but may not rotate
end-for-end or change the location or fail to keep the long axis of the ball at right
angles to the line of scrimmage.
Not just an accepted practice, it's a rule.
Although the rule clearly states, "The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation", many officials are also cognizant of NF 7-1-7 and understand that lifting the ball, for perfectly legitimate reasons, can be misunderstood by the defense and risks "causing B to encroach", which might trigger NF: 7-1-8. (a purely judgment call)
In essense, gramatically, the sapper lifting the ball may be quite innocent, and perfectly legal, but may also be unfortunately misunderstood and cause a situation that can be avoided by simply advising the snapper, which has been a not uncommon practice for the past 100+ years, to either NOT lift the ball, ask the Umpire for assistance, or be really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap" which may have "caused" B to encroach.
Sometimes excessive reliance on what may actually be right, can turn out differently, and create unnecessary problems that could have been easily avoided with just a little common sense.
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Although the rule clearly states, "The snapper may lift the ball for lateral rotation", many officials are also cognizant of NF 7-1-7 and understand that lifting the ball, for perfectly legitimate reasons, can be misunderstood by the defense and risks "causing B to encroach", which might trigger NF: 7-1-8. (a purely judgment call)
In essense, gramatically, the sapper lifting the ball may be quite innocent, and perfectly legal, but may also be unfortunately misunderstood and cause a situation that can be avoided by simply advising the snapper, which has been a not uncommon practice for the past 100+ years, to either NOT lift the ball, ask the Umpire for assistance, or be really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap" which may have "caused" B to encroach.
Sometimes excessive reliance on what may actually be right, can turn out differently, and create unnecessary problems that could have been easily avoided with just a little common sense.
You have got to be kidding. Unfortunately, I know you are not.
If an umpire can't differentiate between an snapper LEGALLY lifting the ball to rotate it before he or the line are set, and lifting it in a manner that simulates the snap (which would typically come AFTER the line was set), then it's not a matter of the snapper needing to go out of his way to ask the umpire to do it, it's a matter of the umpire learning the rules or getting off the field.
Any umpire that tells the snapper he can't lift the ball to rotate it simply doesn't know the rules. It's not "judgment", it's ignorance.
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"Can the snapper leave the huddle come to the LOS and lift the ball? Lets say he is lifting the ball to get the strings laces positioned where he wants them and not to draw off the defense."
Based on the original question. I agree with Atlanta Blue. The snapper has not committed an infraction. I understand UpState's reasoning for not wanting the ball lifted in any circumstance, but that is not fair to the snapper, who is allowed to adjust the ball. If the snapper makes any movement other than a simple adjustment (the spirit of the rule), then we do have a rule violation and we should penalize the infraction.
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You have got to be kidding. Unfortunately, I know you are not.
it's a matter of the umpire learning the rules or getting off the field.
Any umpire that tells the snapper he can't lift the ball to rotate it simply doesn't know the rules. It's not "judgment", it's ignorance.
I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that Umpires are well aware of the details of this (and all the other) rules, and more importantly understand what they are intended to accomplish. I didn't say a snapper "CAN'T" lift the ball, I suggested it's not a good idea for the snapper "TO" lift the ball (or as previously suggested), be "really, really careful how the ball is lifted so as not to be considered to "simulate action at the snap".
Most Umpires, I've had the pleasure to work with seem a lot more concerned with the smooth operation of the game they are working and minimizing potential problems than demonstrating the precision of their rules knowledge. My suggestions were not intended to point to obvious situations where actual movement of the ball is premature or otherwise inconsequential, I presume all Umpires understand full well how to deal with that.
My suggestions were related to those situations where a snap is reasonably iminent, or possible, and such movement might reasonably cause unintended consequences or needless confusion and controversey. Experience confirms that most, if not all, snappers understand such suggestions and don't have any difficulty in being reminded to avoid unnecessary problems that may result from careless and unnecessary movement of the ball at critical times.
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If A does not gain an advantage...........LEAVE IT ALONE. No one paid it see us work.
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there is no exception for "As long as he doesn't do so in a jerky, "snap-like "motion." and the word "Rotate" does not appear in the rule book.
So is this an unwritten but accepted practice ?
There's definitely a rule in there about illegal snaps. If the snapper's adjustment is jerky for whatever reason, it's a snap infraction. But you guys are talking about NCAA, so I must be in the wrong place ???
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I apologize for hijacking the thread but since the last post before mine was in March I assumed the topic was dead.
Isn't there a statute of limitations ?