RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: Grant - AR on June 02, 2011, 10:44:19 AM
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The 2011 CFO test is available and has been posted in the Tests, Quizzes, and Training Videos section.
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=8037.0
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Question #7
I get "None of the Above."
Blocking OB is a Personal Foul, 15 yard penalty, with Basic Spot enforcement. In this case, the Basic Spot is the end of the related run, which we must assume is the A-48 (one yard beyond the line-to-gain, which is the A-47). The spot of the foul is the A-42, which is behind the Basic Spot, but beyond the NZ, so the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. The penalty will be accepted because the result of the play is a first down for A. 42-15 = 27. So, the succeeding spot will be the A-27. If the LTG = A-47, subtracting 27 from 47, I get 20 yards to gain. So, I get A, 3/20, A-27, RFP (25 on the play clock).
Hmmm. Not one of the given answer choices.
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Question #13
Same old ambiguous c---.
True, if you don't count the exception against A players in position to receive a backward pass.
False, if you mean under any condition or circumstance.
Also, what happened to blocking an eligible A player below the waist beyond the NZ until a legal forward pass is no longer possible by rule?
I'll keep my fingers crossed and go with True.
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7. A, 3/7 @ A-40. On a sweep play to the HL sideline, the pulling left tackle initiates a block against his opponent out of bounds at the A-45. Both players crossed the sideline at the A-42. The runner is tackled at the A-48.
A. A, 3/22 @ A-25; previous spot foul
B. A, 3/17 @ A-30; spot foul of the illegal block
C. A, 3/14 @ A-27; spot where blocker crossed the sideline
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Question #21
Since RR ruled the enforcement of interference with an official by sideline personnel during a live ball should be penalized as a dead-ball (2010 Bulletin 4, Play 3), then A is the answer. Someone without the bulletins would never know to consider this a dead-ball foul. I would have thought he'd put that play in as an AR, since it clearly "interprets" the rule (versus simply clarifying a rule).
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Question #7
I get "None of the Above."
Blocking OB is a Personal Foul, 15 yard penalty, with Basic Spot enforcement. In this case, the Basic Spot is the end of the related run, which we must assume is the A-48 (one yard beyond the line-to-gain, which is the A-47). The spot of the foul is the A-42, which is behind the Basic Spot, but beyond the NZ, so the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. The penalty will be accepted because the result of the play is a first down for A. 42-15 = 27. So, the succeeding spot will be the A-27. If the LTG = A-47, subtracting 27 from 47, I get 20 yards to gain. So, I get A, 3/20, A-27, RFP (25 on the play clock).
Hmmm. Not one of the given answer choices.
I got the same.
D (none of the above)
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Question #21
Since RR ruled the enforcement of interference with an official by sideline personnel during a live ball should be penalized as a dead-ball (2010 Bulletin 4, Play 3), then A is the answer. Someone without the bulletins would never know to consider this a dead-ball foul. I would have thought he'd put that play in as an AR, since it clearly "interprets" the rule (versus simply clarifying a rule).
I see #21 as a 9-1-5-a (illegal interference) infraction - 15 yard penalty, live-ball foul this year. That leads me to answer B.
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I see #21 as a 9-1-5-a (illegal interference) infraction - 15 yard penalty, live-ball foul this year. That leads me to answer B.
9-1-5-a doesn't exist anymore. Neither does the heading "Illegal Interference."
For 2011, the pertinent rule is 9-2-3-a, under the heading, "Unfair Acts." The penalty statement gives the R discretion as to what penalty to enforce, and whether to treat it as a live or dead-ball foul. However, assuming (I know - that's dangerous) the 2010 bulletin play (Bulletin 4, Play 3) is still valid, it sets the precedent and directs us to make this a dead-ball foul, enforced on the Try.
Unless he has changed his mind.
I've got to go with answer A.
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7. A, 3/7 @ A-40. On a sweep play to the HL sideline, the pulling left tackle initiates a block against his opponent out of bounds at the A-45. Both players crossed the sideline at the A-42. The runner is tackled at the A-48.
A. A, 3/22 @ A-25; previous spot foul
B. A, 3/17 @ A-30; spot foul of the illegal block
C. A, 3/14 @ A-27; spot where blocker crossed the sideline
C
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Shouldn't it be 3/20?
it was 3/7 @ A-40 so the LTG was the A-47, after the mark off of the penalty the ball would be at the A-27 (A42 - 15yards). 3/14 would have the ball at the A-33. hEaDbAnG
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Guys, mind sharing what you got for #24? Initially, I had B but now I'm going with C. Would like to know what you got & why.
Also, I had some discussion under another heading about #66. I went with C but several of my fellow officials went with A (& they are adamant about it).
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Also, I had some discussion under another heading about #66. I went with C but several of my fellow officials went with A (& they are adamant about it).
On a play like this, are we even worried about impetus? Did the ball go out of bounds behind a goal line or become dead in the possession of a player who was on, above or behind a goal line?
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Also, I had some discussion under another heading about #66. I went with C but several of my fellow officials went with A (& they are adamant about it).
I think this is a rare application of 2-25-11-b. When a scrimmage kick ends in Team B's EZ, the PSK spot in the B-20. That being the basic spot, I'd go with answer C.
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Guys, mind sharing what you got for #24? Initially, I had B but now I'm going with C. Would like to know what you got & why.
Also, I had some discussion under another heading about #66. I went with C but several of my fellow officials went with A (& they are adamant about it).
For 24, I believe C is correct. The ball carrier is not airborne, so the progress spot is the location of the ball when it is declared dead (between the goal lines, even if the ball is outside the sideline).
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I think this is a rare application of 2-25-11-b. When a scrimmage kick ends in Team B's EZ, the PSK spot in the B-20. That being the basic spot, I'd go with answer C.
I'm wit u, Brudda!
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For 24, I believe C is correct. The ball carrier is not airborne, so the progress spot is the location of the ball when it is declared dead (between the goal lines, even if the ball is outside the sideline).
Boy, this one is really something, one would think very basic, but .....???? In order to go with c what we're really offering is a "LTG line extended" concept. That's something I've never heard discussed.
When I was a LJ many moons ago, we always spotted the ball where it crossed the sideline on this play.
Suppose the runner is near the right sideline at the 50 yard line 1 yard short of the LTG at the 49. He is facing directly at the sideline, with his shoulders parallel to the sideline. Realizing he is falling straight on his face and cannot reach the LTG, so as he falls he reaches the ball out with his left hand (this dude has a huge wingspan) and then first contacts the ground with his right hand. When that happens the ball is 2 yards OB (he's taller than 6 feet) but it reached the "line to gain extended". Remember since he was facing the sideline, the ball crossed the sideline at the 50.
So when the ball becomes dead (when his right hand touched OB), the ball is 6 feet OB, and 3 feet downfield still OB.
Are we now saying this is a 1st down, because, unless I've totally lost it, it was not last year, nor for as many as I can remember.
Another play, runner is running at an angle toward the sideline and realizes his next step will be on the sideline. So he extends the ball out over the sideline but enough forward to have it's tip beyond the LTG extended OB (again a concept I've never heard of), then he steps on the sideline. What then?
What am I missing?
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For 24, I believe C is correct. The ball carrier is not airborne, so the progress spot is the location of the ball when it is declared dead (between the goal lines, even if the ball is outside the sideline).
Agree.
It's the same rules philosophy as when a ball carrier, in the middle of the field of play, is tackled and extends the ball forward just as his knee hits dirt. A grounded ball carrier gets the benefit of forward progress - location of the ball at the instant it becomes dead.
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Boy, this one is really something, one would think very basic, but .....???? In order to go with c what we're really offering is a "LTG line extended" concept. That's something I've never heard discussed.
When I was a LJ many moons ago, we always spotted the ball where it crossed the sideline on this play.
Suppose the runner is near the right sideline at the 50 yard line 1 yard short of the LTG at the 49. He is facing directly at the sideline, with his shoulders parallel to the sideline. Realizing he is falling straight on his face and cannot reach the LTG, so as he falls he reaches the ball out with his left hand (this dude has a huge wingspan) and then first contacts the ground with his right hand. When that happens the ball is 2 yards OB (he's taller than 6 feet) but it reached the "line to gain extended". Remember since he was facing the sideline, the ball crossed the sideline at the 50.
So when the ball becomes dead (when his right hand touched OB), the ball is 6 feet OB, and 3 feet downfield still OB.
Are we now saying this is a 1st down, because, unless I've totally lost it, it was not last year, nor for as many as I can remember.
Another play, runner is running at an angle toward the sideline and realizes his next step will be on the sideline. So he extends the ball out over the sideline but enough forward to have it's tip beyond the LTG extended OB (again a concept I've never heard of), then he steps on the sideline. What then?
What am I missing?
Z99, "after further review, I am now quite confused." As long as I can remember, I understood the opposite of you, i.e., if the BC wasn't airborne, then the location of the ball (N-S, so to speak), even if over ground that is outside the sideline, was the forward progress. And 4-2-4-d, with ARs 8-2-1-I and II seem to still support that (all of which preceded RR). However, ARs 8-2-1-V, VI, VII, VIII and IX, created by RR in the past few years, appear to be in conflict with the previous ARs. And, to compound the confusion, all of these ARs directly address the goal line, not situations not involving the line-to-gain, or simple progress (not involving the goal line).
The previous rules were pretty simple. The new ARs make it incredibly complicated.
Your guess is as good as mine.
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Agree.
It's the same rules philosophy as when a ball carrier, in the middle of the field of play, is tackled and extends the ball forward just as his knee hits dirt. A grounded ball carrier gets the benefit of forward progress - location of the ball at the instant it becomes dead.
I agree with this in the field of play, but, as said, I thought it was different on the sideline. I thought the "where it crossed the sideline" was not limited to airborne runners but included regular runners too.
While difficult to be exactly precise as to where the ball, in possession of the runner, crossed the sideline when trailing the runner, it's easier than trying to determine where its tip was when the runner first touched the sideline or OB. And, of course, the LTG is very important.
Have we really been applying the GL extended logic to OB LTG situations?
I've been in them middle for a very long time (was a BJ for years after being a LJ and before switching to R) so could be all wet on this one. But, again, I haven't heard the "extended" chatter by the wing guys.
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I heard this play from guys coming back from a clinic where Rogers spoke ... I thought they were kidding. Why complicate this? We just got done taking out the all the silly runner becoming airborn by way of hit near pylon stuff.
So, I guess we can let the defense go out and crack him a yard OOB to keep him from getting the first, right ?
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#5 is a poorly worded question. If the fouling team takes a TO then there wouldn't be a 10-second subtraction.
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I agree with this in the field of play, but, as said, I thought it was different on the sideline. I thought the "where it crossed the sideline" was not limited to airborne runners but regular runners.
While difficult to be exactly precise as to where the ball, in possession of the runner, crossed the sideline when trailing the runner, it's easier than trying to determine where its tip was when the runner first touched the sideline or OB. And, of course, the LTG is very important.
Have we really been applying the GL extended logic to OB LTG situations?
I've been in them middle for a very long time (was a BJ for years after being a LJ and before switching to R) so could be all wet on this one. But, again, I haven't heard the "extended" chatter by the wing guys.
These are more of rhetorical questions than ones I want you to answer, but how about these realistic scenarios:
The ball carrier is running so close to the sideline, with the ball in his outside arm, that the ball is actually over ground that is outside the sideline. He runs for 40 yards, then steps on the sideline. Are you going to go back to the spot where the ball first crossed over the sideline?
We've seen guys tip-toe along the sideline, holding the ball out over "foul ground" for several yards before finally losing their balance and stepping or falling OB. Are we going to take the ball back to the spot where it first crossed over the sideline?
We need a national rules conference with RR. That's no joke. We really need one.
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These is more of rhetorical questions than ones I want you to answer, but how about these realistic scenarios:
The ball carrier is running so close to the sideline, with the ball in his outside arm, that the ball is actually over ground that is outside the sideline. He runs for 40 yards, then steps on the sideline. Are you going to go back to the spot where the ball first crossed over the sideline?
We've seen guys tip-toe along the sideline, holding the ball out over "foul ground" for several yards before finally losing their balance and stepping or falling OB. Are we going to take the ball back to the spot where it first crossed over the sideline?
We need a national rules conference with RR. That's no joke. We really need one.
I thought of that play too - so it's back to the old "For years I thought it was this way, then a new book comes out and I'm totally messed up." If I'm right and the wing guys have been doing it "my" way (and those I've talked to around here agree), then is this a rule change?
Here's hoping I'm wrong in the first place ........... but I still can't get over not hearing ANY chatter, talk, or discussion over the years about the concept of an extended LTG or dead ball spot extended when the runner goes OB, non-airborne.
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During a clinic in San Antonio, forward progress for plays out of bounds was explained by Dick Honig as follows:
Excluding situations at the pylon, forward progress is where the ball crosses the sideline for airborne ball carriers/runners (whatever we are calling them this year). For running ball carriers/runners, forward progress is the spot where the ball carrier/runner touches out of bounds (even if his/her stride carries them a yard down field (OB). For example, A45 crosses the sideline at the A45 but first touches the ground OB at the A46 extended. Forward progress is the A46. I can't imagine this rule will remain this way for the reason previously stated (can the defense hit a player OB to prevent him from attaining a first down).
This is way I remember it. Just sayin..
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#5 is a poorly worded question. If the fouling team takes a TO then there wouldn't be a 10-second subtraction.
Maybe not perfect, but a lot better than some.
Try this: Following acceptance of a distance penalty and 10-second game clock subtraction, the game clock will start on the referee's ready-for-play signal, unless the fouling team chooses to use one of their remaining times-out.
The point of the question is the fact that the game clock starts on the RFP, by rule, when the distance penalty and time subtraction are accepted.
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During a clinic in San Antonio, forward progress for plays out of bounds was explained by Dick Honig as follows:
Excluding situations at the pylon, forward progress is where the ball crosses the sideline for airborne ball carriers/runners (whatever we are calling them this year). For running ball carriers/runners, forward progress is the spot where the ball carrier/runner touches out of bounds (even if his/her stride carries them a yard down field (OB). For example, A45 crosses the sideline at the A45 but first touches the ground OB at the A46 extended. Forward progress is the A46. I can't imagine this rule will remain this way for the reason previously stated (can the defense hit a player OB to prevent him from attaining a first down).
This is way I remember it. Just sayin..
So at that clinic, they were saying it doesn't matter where the ball is or was, only where the runner touches OB? Never heard of that one.
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So at that clinic, they were saying it doesn't matter where the ball is or was, only where the runner touches OB? Never heard of that one.
I don't think that is what DH meant to imply, but gauging by test questions, etc., I have seen him author, that's probably what he said. He tends to use generic or colloquial terms regarding rule discussions. When called to task, I can easily see him saying, "Well, yeah, of course I meant where the ball was when he actually touched the ground out of bounds. I thought everybody understood that."
But, for me, that supports what I have been saying, i.e., the ball's position n-s (even if over "foul ground") when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. But, like I said, RR's new ARs really confuse me. I could be completetley wrong, at least now, if not for the past 38 years.
But that touches on another related subject. RR's recent treatise on rule study made good points for personal, individual rule study. Thinking and writing rule-related things in your own words, for your own consumption, is certainly a good and valuable practice, as long as you understand the rules correctly. But, in my experience, when discussing rules among your peers, you must use "rule-speak" jargon. You must. To use terms like, "crackback" block, "lateral," "line of scrimmage" (in lieu of neutral zone), etc., just leads to confusion, which creates misunderstandings.
That's my opinion, for what its worth.
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I don't think that is what DH meant to imply, but gauging by test questions, etc., I have seen him author, that's probably what he said. He tends to use generic or colloquial terms regarding rule discussions. When called to task, I can easily see him saying, "Well, yeah, of course I meant where the ball was when he actually touched the ground out of bounds. I thought everybody understood that."
But, for me, that supports what I have been saying, i.e., the ball's position n-s (even if over "foul ground") when the ball becomes dead is the forward progress spot. But, like I said, RR's new ARs really confuse me. I could be completetley wrong, at least now, if not for the past 38 years.
But that touches on another related subject. RR's recent treatise on rule study made good points for personal, individual rule study. Thinking and writing rule-related things in your own words, for your own consumption, is certainly a good and valuable practice, as long as you understand the rules correctly. But, in my experience, when discussing rules among your peers, you must use "rule-speak" jargon. You must. To use terms like, "crackback" block, "lateral," "line of scrimmage" (in lieu of neutral zone), etc., just leads to confusion, which creates misunderstandings.
That's my opinion, for what its worth.
well put - I'm still spinning but after several 360s I've decided to stop at the same place you are.....
Forward most point of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline or whether it's OB or in the field of play, when the non-airborne runner first touches OB. So the LTG is extended OB in some situations.
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The correct answer to #24 is "b". The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. This is how this play has been officiated forever. Interestingly, in the past, it really wasn't right by rule. The previous rule, 4-2-4e, used the words "dives or jumps." The new book eliminates section 'e' and makes it an exception to 4-2-4d and the words "dives or jumps" have been removed.
Rule 2-27-6 defines an airborne player as one who is not touching the ground, so a player who is running does go airborne during his stride. Yes, we all know that's not what the rule means exactly, but that is what it says. Putting those two rules, 2-27-6 and 4-2-4d (exc) we really do have a rule based reason to do what we've done forever and that is put the ball where it crosses.
If we stop doing that, then I can guarantee our coaches, who also know how we've spotted the ball forever, would go nuts when we start putting the ball a yard in front of where the ball crossed.
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The correct answer to #24 is "b". The ball is spotted where it crosses the sideline. This is how this play has been officiated forever. Interestingly, in the past, it really wasn't right by rule. The previous rule, 4-2-4e, used the words "dives or jumps." The new book eliminates section 'e' and makes it an exception to 4-2-4d and the words "dives or jumps" have been removed.
Rule 2-27-6 defines an airborne player as one who is not touching the ground, so a player who is running does go airborne during his stride. Yes, we all know that's not what the rule means exactly, but that is what it says. Putting those two rules, 2-27-6 and 4-2-4d (exc) we really do have a rule based reason to do what we've done forever and that is put the ball where it crosses.
If we stop doing that, then I can guarantee our coaches, who also know how we've spotted the ball forever, would go nuts when we start putting the ball a yard in front of where the ball crossed.
oh boy - and here I thought I was going to stop spinning around on this one ..... ???
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I thought of that play too - so it's back to the old "For years I thought it was this way, then a new book comes out and I'm totally messed up." If I'm right and the wing guys have been doing it "my" way (and those I've talked to around here agree), then is this a rule change?
Here's hoping I'm wrong in the first place ........... but I still can't get over not hearing ANY chatter, talk, or discussion over the years about the concept of an extended LTG or dead ball spot extended when the runner goes OB, non-airborne.
This year's 4-2-4-d reads, "The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-IX)."
The first sentence (in bold) has been in the rule book for years. The Exception for an airborne ball carrier was added this year.
As with you, it's my impression that the vast majority of officials have always considered the crossing point as the dead ball (forward progress) spot for both a ball not in player possession as well as a ball in player possession.
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This year's 4-2-4-d reads, "The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-IX)."
The first sentence (in bold) has been in the rule book for years. The Exception for an airborne ball carrier was added this year.
As with you, it's my impression that the vast majority of officials have always considered the crossing point as the dead ball (forward progress) spot for both a ball not in player possession as well as a ball in player possession.
If it turns out we are to go with the "forward most point of the ball"; that's a big deal IMO. I hope we get more to straighten us (maybe only me) out than just the answer to the CFO test question. As we all have experienced, test question answers, even if from the CFO, aren't 100% reliable. What I'd like to see is one of RR's nifty published notes in plain speak.
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The correct answer to #24 is "b".
You have the answer key?
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You have the answer key?
No, but I do know that this is the answer.
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For you Diablo: The text of the exception was actually item "e." under that Article in the 2009-10 book, although RR edited it for 2011 to eliminate "...dives or jumps toward the sideline and..." (somewhat redundant and unnecessary language).
For everyone:
Now, ask yourself this question:
Why does that "exception" exist? Why do we need an exception for an airborne ball carrier if the same rule applies to a non-airborne ball carrier?
Answer: For the non-airborne BC, progress is the n-s location of the ball, even over "foul ground," when the ball is declared dead.
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For you Diablo: The text of the exception was actually item "e." under that Article in the 2009-10 book, although RR edited it for 2011 to eliminate "...dives or jumps toward the sideline and..." (somewhat redundant and unnecessary language).
For everyone:
Now, ask yourself this question:
Why does that "exception" exist? Why do we need an exception for an airborne ball carrier if the same rule applies to a non-airborne ball carrier?
Answer: For the non-airborne BC, progress is the n-s location of the ball, even over "foul ground," when the ball is declared dead.
You're preaching to a choir boy, Reverend.
The hard part is converting the congregation.
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You're preaching to a choir boy, Reverend.
The hard part is converting the congregation.
so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline" - honestly now :) - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years? Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days? Emphasis on the "honestly now!" :)
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so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline" - honestly now :) - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years? Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days? Emphasis on the "honestly now!" :)
"Honestly" ?!?!.......... I've been a deep judge (mostly B) throughout my collegiate career; hence, had very limited opportunity to make these calls ;D
However, on a couple of rare occasions, I recall observing a ball carrier extend the ball forward just as he landed OB. Later, when I asked the calling wing if he gave the ball carrier forward progress per 4-1-2-d, they looked at me like I had 3 eyes.
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Look at a msg just sent (regarding #24) to those who have already submitted their test answers:
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From: xxx <xxx@arbitersports.com>;
Subject: Message from CFO Central Hub
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011
You are receiving this email because you have taken the CFO 2011 National Rules Test recently and there has been a change to the answer key for question #24. Upon further review it was determined that the correct answer to question #24 is selection 'B' (A,4/1,@B-38).
If you desire further explanation of this corrected answer you can check with your Coordinator or email Rogers Redding, National Coordinator and Secretary-Rules Editor at footballrules@ncaa.org.
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"Honestly" ?!?!.......... I've been a deep judge (mostly B) throughout my collegiate career; hence, had very limited opportunity to make these calls ;D
However, on a couple of rare occasions, I recall observing a ball carrier extend the ball forward just as he landed OB. Later, when I asked the calling wing if he gave the ball carrier forward progress per 4-1-2-d, they looked at me like I had 3 eyes.
and your answer? :)
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and your answer? :)
Question 24 reads as follows:
A, 3/9 @ B-46. The ball carrier is hit on the B-39 at the sideline and falls forward and out of bounds. When the ball is declared dead in possession of runner, the ball is outside the sideline at the B-37 extended. The ball, in possession of the runner, crossed the sideline on the B-38.
A. A, 4/2 @ B-39
B. A, 4/1 @ B-38
C. A, 1/10 @ B-37
If B is the correct answer, the author/s intend for the Exception in 4-2-4-d to be the relevant rule passage. If that is the case, they intend for the ball carrier to be airborne. Perhaps "ball carrier is hit ... and falls forward and out of bounds" is meant to convey airborne status to the ball carrier. That intention is not clear to me. It would be less ambiguous if they used the standard phrases "becomes airborne" or "blocked into the air".
That said, the uncertainty surrounding question 24 does not distract from the existence of a rule (4-2-4-d sans the Exception) which awards forward progress to a grounded ball carrier who goes OB.
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Well, this doesn't really address the fundamental question, because the test question may imply that the BC is airborne when he "...falls forward out of bounds." If that is the implication, then yes, B is the answer.
Suppose the question was edited to read, "4/10, B-40. The ball carrier runs out of bounds untouched (or is hit, but maintains his balance, and runs out of bounds) at the B-31, with the ball in his outstretched arm at the B-30 (extended) when he first touches the ground out of bounds. The ball crossed the sideline at the B-30 1/2."
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so regardless of the current debate - for those of you pushing for "forward most part of the ball regardless of where it crossed the sideline" - honestly now Smiley - how many of you were actually calling it this way for the last, say 10-15 years? Or, how many were calling it "where it crossed the sideline" since your Pop Warner days? Emphasis on the "honestly now!"
Confession: been calling it where it crossed the sideline forever, figuring that's as far as he had advanced "in the field of play."
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Well, this doesn't really address the fundamental question, because the test question may imply that the BC is airborne when he "...falls forward out of bounds." If that is the implication, then yes, B is the answer.
Suppose the question was edited to read, "4/10, B-40. The ball carrier runs out of bounds untouched (or is hit, but maintains his balance, and runs out of bounds) at the B-31, with the ball in his outstretched arm at the B-30 (extended) when he first touches the ground out of bounds. The ball crossed the sideline at the B-30 1/2."
my answer on the field over the last 40 years? It's at the B30 1/2. My answer now? The same, unless we get something in writing (other than a test answer) from RR specifically on point, and we undergo training to adapt to a whole new way of officiating the sideline.
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[Confession: been calling it where it crossed the sideline forever, figuring that's as far as he had advanced "in the field of play."
At least we have been calling it where we think he crossed the sideline because we probably never got it exact.
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At least we have been calling it where we think he crossed the sideline because we probably never got it exact.
Actually I think we've been calling it where we think the ball crossed the sideline in his possession. Emphasis on the second "think." :)
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I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.
Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?
If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.
Please explain the exception.
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I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.
Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?
If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.
Please explain the exception.
I've learned long ago never to engage in explaining the unexplainable, especially when it comes to the verbiage of the Rule Book! :)
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I'll ask the question again, and challenge anyone (except Diablo) to answer.
Why is there an "exception" for an airborne ball carrier?
If what y'all believe is true, no exception is needed. The ball would always be placed where it crossed the sideline, regardless of the BC's orientation or relation to the ground. So an exception for an airborne BC wouldn't be needed.
Please explain the exception.
Sometimes the player steps out of bounds and the ball has never crossed the sideline. The ball is then placed at the most forward point of the ball.
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Sometimes the player steps out of bounds and the ball has never crossed the sideline. The ball is then placed at the most forward point of the ball.
Yes, but what does that have to do with the exception for an airborne player?
The ball being placed at the spot where it crosses the sideline is an exception for an airborne player. To be an exception, then it must be different from the fundamental rule. So, what's the fundamental rule, to which it is an exception?
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Yes, but what does that have to do with the exception for an airborne player?
The ball being placed at the spot where it crosses the sideline is an exception for an airborne player. To be an exception, then it must be different from the fundamental rule. So, what's the fundamental rule, to which it is an exception?
The first part of 4-2-4d is the fundamental rule: "The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress" and tells us what to do when the runner steps out of bounds. This is always the spot, EXCEPT WHEN AN AIRBORNE PLAYER CROSSES THE SIDELINE. In this case, the ball is not spotted at the most forward point, it's spotted where the ball crossed.
Note that we see further support for answer "B" on question 24 in the language of 4-2-4a: "If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball's most forward point when it was declared dead."
This seems to directly infer that when the ball crosses the sideline...put it there. And that's why we've always done it that way.
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Sometimes the player steps out of bounds and the ball has never crossed the sideline. The ball is then placed at the most forward point of the ball.
As has been asked previously in this thread ...
Visualize a grounded ball carrier approaching the sideline. At the A-30, he begins tightroping inbounds while holding the ball in foul territory. At the A-34, his left foot lands inbounds, immediately followed by his right foot stepping OB at the A-36 extended. The ball in possession of ball carrier is over the extended A-36 when the ball carrier's right foot landed OB.
Where do you spot the ball for the next down?
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As has been asked previously in this thread ...
Visualize a grounded ball carrier approaching the sideline. At the A-30, he begins tightroping inbounds while holding the ball in foul territory. At the A-34, his left foot lands inbounds, immediately followed by his right foot stepping OB at the A-36 extended. The ball in possession of ball carrier is over the extended A-36 when the ball carrier's right foot landed OB.
Where do you spot the ball for the next down?
A-36. I know, I know what your response will be. But let's just face the fact that we will not decide this technical question here no matter how many more posts are posted.
Strange though - why hasn't this issue come up in the past when we we're "using the where it crossed the sideline."
I find it hard to beleive that we were wrong for all that time...................
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A-36. I know, I know what your response will be. But let's just face the fact that we will not decide this technical question here no matter how many more posts are posted.
Strange though - why hasn't this issue come up in the past when we we're "using the where it crossed the sideline."
I find it hard to beleive that we were wrong for all that time...................
Concur, and we can stop flailing this horse - even though it still lives.
I suspect the reason it hasn't come up is the fact that the realistic (yardage) difference between the two concepts is relatively minor, and teams didn't know the difference - hell, apparently some of us didn't know the difference - so the issue didn't arise. It takes ambiguity via a written exam question to bring this out in the open.
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Concur, and we can stop flailing this horse - even though it still lives.
I suspect the reason it hasn't come up is the fact that the realistic (yardage) difference between the two concepts is relatively minor, and teams didn't know the difference - hell, apparently some of us didn't know the difference - so the issue didn't arise. It takes ambiguity via a written exam question to bring this out in the open.
well said ---
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I suspect the reason it hasn't come up is the fact that the realistic (yardage) difference between the two concepts is relatively minor, and teams didn't know the difference - hell, apparently some of us didn't know the difference - so the issue didn't arise.
But they say it's a game of inches.
And it appears that 4-2-4-d was applied correctly on a fourth down play in the final minute of last year's Little Caesars Pizza Bowl. See link to youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXErRp30Ak
BTW, FIU went on the kick a FG and win he game.
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But they say it's a game of inches.
And it appears that 4-2-4-d was applied correctly on a fourth down play in the final minute of last year's Little Caesars Pizza Bowl. See link to youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXErRp30Ak
BTW, FIU went on the kick a FG and win he game.
GREAT CLIP!
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But they say it's a game of inches.
And it appears that 4-2-4-d was applied correctly on a fourth down play in the final minute of last year's Little Caesars Pizza Bowl. See link to youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXErRp30Ak
BTW, FIU went on the kick a FG and win he game.
Well, there it is. The exact play we've been discussing. Did the officials on the field and the the RO get it right? I danged sure think so.
Way to go, Diablo.
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Well, there it is. The exact play we've been discussing. Did the officials on the field and the the RO get it right? I danged sure think so.
Way to go, Diablo.
I'm just the messenger. Thanks should go to Rom Gilbert and his overworked, under paid video clip capturer.
PS I think that is an ACC crew. Perhaps those boys have been enlightened to the intent of 4-2-4-d.
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Very illuminating discussion guys... having been one of those holding the opposite interpretation for years, I have to say that I'm persuaded that the "airborne v. running" distinction is the key under the text of the rules and AR's. The interpretation also is in keeping with the underlying forward progress assumptions that must have been in place in the old TD AR's involving goal line extension, as well as this year's goal line extension "exceptions" in the TD AR's.
Don't know now whether to flag with that defender who, in an effort to stop forward progress, hits the runner over OB territory whose back foot has just left the ground inbounds and before his front foot hits the ground OB, but I guess that's for another day.
I'll go back to my lurking...
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Another good example is the CFO preseason video play #2 of chapter 13 Goal Line/Pylon.
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I would say that the comments accompanying that particular clip are more than a good example...it appears they are the defining interpretation.
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Very illuminating discussion guys... having been one of those holding the opposite interpretation for years, I have to say that I'm persuaded that the "airborne v. running" distinction is the key under the text of the rules and AR's. The interpretation also is in keeping with the underlying forward progress assumptions that must have been in place in the old TD AR's involving goal line extension, as well as this year's goal line extension "exceptions" in the TD AR's.
Don't know now whether to flag with that defender who, in an effort to stop forward progress, hits the runner over OB territory whose back foot has just left the ground inbounds and before his front foot hits the ground OB, but I guess that's for another day.
I'll go back to my lurking...
Before I change my practice for years, I'd sure like to see something official from RR! Wait a minute, I'm in the middle, sure hope I don't make any sideline calls! :)
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Another good example is the CFO preseason video play #2 of chapter 13 Goal Line/Pylon.
Well, there you have it.
That means, in question 24, "...falls forward..." means he is airborne, if B is to be the correct answer. OK by me.
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Well, there you have it.
That means, in question 24, "...falls forward..." means he is airborne, if B is to be the correct answer. OK by me.
not a ton of difference between "falls forward" and "strides OB" - are we saying one could be short of the LTG and the other makes the crucial, BCS championship winning, first down?
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Maybe we need a better definition of what "airborne" means since a player running is technically airborne when he makes a stride (stop the bowl video at :42 and you'll see the FIU player not touching the ground as he crosses the sideline). 2-27-6-b is the current definition. An airborne player is a player not in contact with the ground.
If this is the way they really want it ruled then I would propose a changing the word "airborne" in 4-2-4-d to something like "diving" whose definition would be something like "a player leaves the ground (on his own or from contact with an opponent) such that his next contact with the ground is not with his foot (or feet)".
Or something like that.
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not a ton of difference between "falls forward" and "strides OB" - are we saying one could be short of the LTG and the other makes the crucial, BCS championship winning, first down?
That, indeed, would be the difference between airborne and not airborne. Why is there a difference between airborne and non-airborne BCs? Couldn't tell ya. Precedes my career.
The best news is that you've had the BCS Championship experience - this wasn't an issue, and y'all did a magnificent job. I haven't (and won't), and am tickled pink to just still be working. We're happy, healthy and livin' in the USA. Its all good.
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This happens to best, so no big deal, but #47 answer should be A, 1/G @ B-6, snap. (Not 1/10)
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RR just posted an interpretation of 4-2-4-d.
INTERPRETATION: For purposes of the Exception to 4-2-4-d, a ball carrier who strides across the sideline before first touching out of bounds is considered to be an airborne player.
He then gives play examples where we mark the point of progress where the ball is located when the player first steps on the sideline. So does this interpretation mean that the FIU bowl play was ruled correctly or not?
To me, it doesn't really help clear things up. Doesn't every player who runs and steps out of bounds stride across the sideline?
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Unbelievable.
That AIN'T what he says in Chapter 13, Play 2 of the National Video. He very cearly - CLEARLY - says progress is to the point where the ball is when he first touches OB.
How the hell does anyone know what to do?
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RR just posted an interpretation of 4-2-4-d.
INTERPRETATION: For purposes of the Exception to 4-2-4-d, a ball carrier who strides across the sideline before first touching out of bounds is considered to be an airborne player.
He then gives play examples where we mark the point of progress where the ball is located when the player first steps on the sideline. So does this interpretation mean that the FIU bowl play was ruled correctly or not?
To me, it doesn't really help clear things up. Doesn't every player who runs and steps out of bounds stride across the sideline?
Help me out.
Is Dr. Redding saying we mark the dead-ball spot differently when a grounded ball carrier strides over the sideline and first steps OB outside the sideline versus a grounded ball carrier who becomes OB by steping on the sideline?
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Help me out.
Is Dr. Redding saying we mark the dead-ball spot differently when a grounded ball carrier strides over the sideline and first steps OB outside the sideline versus a grounded ball carrier who becomes OB by steping on the sideline?
Yes, Diablo.
Read the thread above entitled "(NCAA) CFO INTERPRETATION: Forward Progress for Ball Carrier Out Of Bounds"
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OK. I'll pose this question again.
Visualize a grounded ball carrier approaching the sideline. At the A-30, he begins tightroping inbounds while holding the ball in foul territory. At the A-34, his left foot lands inbounds, immediately followed by his right foot striding over the sideline and landing OB at the A-36 extended. The ball in possession of ball carrier is over the extended A-36 when the ball carrier's right foot lands OB.
Where do you spot the ball for the next down?
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Give him the same forward progress that you would have if he'd been carrying the ball on the "inbounds" side of his body when he goes OB... I think this is the point of the interpretations...give the runner what he earned between the lines, give the defense what they were able to stop between the lines.
And no, it doesn't flow semantically... but I think that's where RR is heading.
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But now we have to make a judgment call on "striding" vs "running". If his front foot touches down while his back foot is still on the ground it's "running" but if his front foot touches down after his back foot has left the ground he's "striding" therefore it's now defined that he's "airborne? So in addition to keeping track of where the ball is, if his feet are inbounds, we need to determine if both feet were off the ground just before the instant his lead foot touches OB? Then, we put the ball back where it crossed the sideline?
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ok more horses to beat to death and beyond #56 and #100???? answers A are not correct for either according to my results...I have looked and looked through the book and still come up with A for both...can someone please help???
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ok more horses to beat to death and beyond #56 and #100???? answers A are not correct for either according to my results...I have looked and looked through the book and still come up with A for both...can someone please help???
These are tough ones to accept, but it has to do with the fact that the clock would not have stopped had the 'down' ruling been made on the field. Since the BC was short of the LTG, the clock would have not stopped, so there is no real way for anybody to gauge how much time would have expired before A could get another play off. So, in 56, no time is added to the game clock, and it starts on the RFP. In 100, similar story. Since the RO can't put time back on the clock, and A has no T/Os remaining - game over - so it isn't reviewable.
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ok more horses to beat to death and beyond #56 and #100???? answers A are not correct for either according to my results...I have looked and looked through the book and still come up with A for both...can someone please help???
To further support El Macman's response to #s 56 & 100, there's a 2009 bulletin posted on CFO Arbiter that is focused just on instant replay. It is VERY helpful.
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As this was explained to me, other than an egregious error, the only time that the clock can be adjusted on a replay reversal is if time ran off the clock and the result of the replay decision created a stopped clock.
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Finally getting a chance to finish my 'rough draft' of the test.
#84 - either they goofed in authoring the question, or they are hinting it is an egregious error. They reference a flag being thrown for a Team B player being voluntarily OB on a kickoff. Since there is no rule prohibiting a Team B player from going OB, then either they goofed, and mean a Team A player, or they didn't goof and they are asking us to determine if replay can get involved via the "egregious error" clause. In this case, I'd say yes, since it doesn't involve judgment - only an improper ruling based purely on fact and mis-application of rule.
How do y'all see it? Authoring error? Or 'egregious error?'
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The question says he's flagged for "having been voluntarily out of bounds." In other words, he is not still OB when he touches the ball, so it's not a KOB. My reading is that it's a bad call (flagging a Team B player for having been out of bounds), but it's not reviewable. I don't believe it's an "egregious" error (though that term is not defined, I think it would have to result in a score or put a team in a position from which they are precluded from winning); it's just an error, and our errors are not always reviewable.
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The question says he's flagged for "having been voluntarily out of bounds." In other words, he is not still OB when he touches the ball, so it's not a KOB. My reading is that it's a bad call (flagging a Team B player for having been out of bounds), but it's not reviewable. I don't believe it's an "egregious" error (though that term is not defined, I think it would have to result in a score or put a team in a position from which they are precluded from winning); it's just an error, and our errors are not always reviewable.
In re-studying Rule 12, it is indeed, Not Reviewable, and not correctible by the RO. 12-3-6 gives the RO the ability to correct egregious errors, but, as it regards fouls, that discretion is limited to those fouls that are specifically reviewable, and a player OB voluntarily is NOT one of those. So, Not Reviewable.
That is why this site is so valuable.
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#18
Major ambiguity.
"The running back is split outside the tackle box to his left."
What does that mean? Is he to the right of the tackle box, such that the tackle box is "...to his left"? Or, is he split wide to the left side of the formation, thus, outside and left of the tackle box?
Any good guesses?
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I'd go with the simple reading he's outside the tackle box to his left - so I've got him on the left side of the tackle box.
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I'd go with the simple reading he's outside the tackle box to his left - so I've got him on the left side of the tackle box.
Yeah, considering the series of question (18, 19, 20), for him to be on the left side of the formation would seem to follow what they appear to be looking for.
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Can someone explain why question #87 is reviewable? Isn't this a judgement call by the SJ that the receiver went out on his own? Is there a rule reference for this?
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12.3.3h and From the Replay Casebook.
35. Pass receiver Possibly Out of Bounds
First and 10 on the A-20. Wide receiver A88 catches a pass at the 50 and carries the ball across Team B’s goal line. Officials flag A88 for illegal touching after he apparently stepped on the sideline at the A-38 prior to the catch. It is possible that A88 was blocked out of bounds by his defender. RULING: Reviewable, regarding whether A88 contacted the sideline. Replay official could reverse the ruling ONLY if the video showed absolutely that the receiver went out of bounds due to a block by the opponent.
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12.3.3h and From the Replay Casebook.
35. Pass receiver Possibly Out of Bounds
First and 10 on the A-20. Wide receiver A88 catches a pass at the 50 and carries the ball across Team B’s goal line. Officials flag A88 for illegal touching after he apparently stepped on the sideline at the A-38 prior to the catch. It is possible that A88 was blocked out of bounds by his defender. RULING: Reviewable, regarding whether A88 contacted the sideline. Replay official could reverse the ruling ONLY if the video showed absolutely that the receiver went out of bounds due to a block by the opponent.
Thanks- I did end up finding that AR after I posted.
I'm not sure 12.3.3h applies since you're not reviewing whether he stepped out or not (they flagged the illegal touch) but rather if he was blocked out or went out on his own. Seems like this is a judgement call like other fouls that wouldn't be reviewable.
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When do the answers become available for this test anyway? I am doing this for practice as a high school official, just at some point would like to know how i did.
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When do the answers become available for this test anyway? I am doing this for practice as a high school official, just at some point would like to know how i did.
On August 29, the "test review" becomes available, whatever that means.
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Hep me, hep me...I've been hipmotized...
With the aid of the invaluable discussion on this site, I took the CFO exam - got a 99. I missed #54. After looking at it for an hour, unless I check the wrong choice, I can't figure how I missed it.
54. A, 4/10 @ A35. The Team B receiver waves for a fair catch at the B-10. He lets the ball go over his head and now blocks an opponent at the B-16. The punt goes untouched into the end zone.
A. Touchback; B, 1/10 @ B-20
A. B, 1/10 @ B-8; half the distance penalty
A. B, 1/10 @ B-11; 5-yard penalty
The three "A" choices in the PDF document notwithstanding, I answered B. Anybody see how that could be wrong?
Assuming the second answer is actually “B,” a fair catch signaler that doesn’t touch the kick may not block or foul an opponent for the remainder of the down. That is a PSK foul, and the end of the kick is in the EZ, so the Basic Spot is the B-20. The spot of the foul is behind the BS, so this is a spot foul. The penalty is 15 yards, so we'll go 1/2 the distance, 1st & 10. So, B,1/10, B-8.
Can anybody hep me? Perhaps I inadvertently selected something other than B.
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Hep me, hep me...I've been hipmotized...
With the aid of the invaluable discussion on this site, I took the CFO exam - got a 99. I missed #54. After looking at it for an hour, unless I check the wrong choice, I can't figure how I missed it.
54. A, 4/10 @ A35. The Team B receiver waves for a fair catch at the B-10. He lets the ball go over his head and now blocks an opponent at the B-16. The punt goes untouched into the end zone.
A. Touchback; B, 1/10 @ B-20
A. B, 1/10 @ B-8; half the distance penalty
A. B, 1/10 @ B-11; 5-yard penalty
The three "A" choices in the PDF document notwithstanding, I answered B. Anybody see how that could be wrong?
Assuming the second answer is actually “B,” a fair catch signaler that doesn’t touch the kick may not block or foul an opponent for the remainder of the down. That is a PSK foul, and the end of the kick is in the EZ, so the Basic Spot is the B-20. The spot of the foul is behind the BS, so this is a spot foul. The penalty is 15 yards, so we'll go 1/2 the distance, 1st & 10. So, B,1/10, B-8.
Can anybody hep me? Perhaps I inadvertently selected something other than B.
We talked about this one in our rules meeting tonight and came up with the same answer. I'm not sure how it could be anything else.
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Hep me, hep me...I've been hipmotized...
With the aid of the invaluable discussion on this site, I took the CFO exam - got a 99. I missed #54. After looking at it for an hour, unless I check the wrong choice, I can't figure how I missed it.
54. A, 4/10 @ A35. The Team B receiver waves for a fair catch at the B-10. He lets the ball go over his head and now blocks an opponent at the B-16. The punt goes untouched into the end zone.
A. Touchback; B, 1/10 @ B-20
A. B, 1/10 @ B-8; half the distance penalty
A. B, 1/10 @ B-11; 5-yard penalty
The three "A" choices in the PDF document notwithstanding, I answered B. Anybody see how that could be wrong?
Assuming the second answer is actually “B,” a fair catch signaler that doesn’t touch the kick may not block or foul an opponent for the remainder of the down. That is a PSK foul, and the end of the kick is in the EZ, so the Basic Spot is the B-20. The spot of the foul is behind the BS, so this is a spot foul. The penalty is 15 yards, so we'll go 1/2 the distance, 1st & 10. So, B,1/10, B-8.
Can anybody hep me? Perhaps I inadvertently selected something other than B.
I answered B and got it right.
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I answered B and got it right.
Ah, then I must have checked the wrong box. Whew. Thanks.