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Football Officiating => NCAA Discussion => Topic started by: fencewire on November 27, 2011, 02:34:55 PM
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anyone have the video of Tuberville and Christal getting into it?
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I like the hop step Christal does sometimes when he gives a first down
Long version with TTU and Baylor time outs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPz1kp7KUDQ
Short version w/o preceding time outs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA8CZfP4S7s
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Looks to me like R lost his composure a wee bit there. Was the DOG because they were late coming out from a time out?
Best regards,
Brad
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Was the DOG because they were late coming out from a time out?
They just come off a 30 sec Baylor time out. The officials were whistling for a good 15 seconds to get both teams back on the field. Baylor gets their team on and field and Christal blows the RFP. I think the DOG was because TTU delayed his RFP and they were sending players on late.
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can anyone post the whole sequence from the :30 second TO? And, I wonder what the UNS was for? I guess something the coach said which was personal because it didn't look like he dashed onto the field?
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http://lubbockonline.com/sports-red-raiders-football/2011-11-26/tech-notes-tuberville-officials-flap-got-personal (http://lubbockonline.com/sports-red-raiders-football/2011-11-26/tech-notes-tuberville-officials-flap-got-personal)
A news story
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why is it always "I was just trying to get an explanation" when the UNS is handed out?
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Wild guess here...but my money is on T and Christal had had at least one conversation about his defensive "tactic" earlier
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can anyone post the whole sequence from the :30 second TO? And, I wonder what the UNS was for? I guess something the coach said which was personal because it didn't look like he dashed onto the field?
Longer version uploaded. Check my first post ^^^^
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Not sure of the timing of things, but Christal may have also been HACKED that Tech pulled a "jersey swap" and snuck a backup QB in to throw a TD pass on an "end around" play.
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They just come off a 30 sec Baylor time out. The officials were whistling for a good 15 seconds to get both teams back on the field. Baylor gets their team on and field and Christal blows the RFP. I think the DOG was because TTU delayed his RFP and they were sending players on late.
Was the play clock correct on that video? If so, there were 16 seconds on it when the flag was game was stopped to throw the flag. Is this standard philosophy in the Big12? I'm not an R by any stretch of the imagination (and I've not put much thought into this situation), but if the play clock on the TV was correct, the offense still had plenty of time to get their play called and the ball snapped.
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Was the play clock correct on that video? If so, there were 16 seconds on it when the flag was game was stopped to throw the flag. Is this standard philosophy in the Big12? I'm not an R by any stretch of the imagination (and I've not put much thought into this situation), but if the play clock on the TV was correct, the offense still had plenty of time to get their play called and the ball snapped.
I believe the play clock on the video is correct. In the longer video you can hear the RFP and by the time they show the play clock on the video it shows :22 and there is about a three second delay from the time the RFP is heard and when they show the play clock on tv. I also thought this was odd to have a DOG with plenty of time on the play clock. Which is why i thought it was a combination of delaying the RFP and sending players on late.
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I believe the play clock on the video is correct. In the longer video you can hear the RFP and by the time they show the play clock on the video it shows :22 and there is about a three second delay from the time the RFP is heard and when they show the play clock on tv. I also thought this was odd to have a DOG with plenty of time on the play clock. Which is why i thought it was a combination of delaying the RFP and sending players on late.
Thanks. I guess it could have been a combination of a few things.
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Not sure of the timing of things, but Christal may have also been HACKED that Tech pulled a "jersey swap" and snuck a backup QB in to throw a TD pass on an "end around" play.
Can you elaborate further?
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I liked the DOG call. It was much better than letting a play go off with half of the defense in position coming out of a TO. The DOG call was about the last thing I liked...
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Can you elaborate further?
Why would he be upset? A) It has nothing to do with him. B) It was completely legal, because the player wore that jersey from the opening kickoff to the final whistle. Yeah, it was a different jersey than his normal number, and not the one he wore in warmups. Did Tech pull a fast one on Baylor? Yeah, probably. Against conference policy? Don't know. Against NCAA rules? No.
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why is it always "I was just trying to get an explanation" when the UNS is handed out?
He may have earned it - I don't know. I wasn't there. But, I know Tuberville well enough to know that, unlike the vast majority of coaches, it would take something extraordinary (at least from his perspective) to do/say something to warrant a flag. But, I also know Christal well enough to know that he doesn't fly off the handle. So, it's a mystery. I'm just trying to make the point that Tuberville is one of the small percentage of coaches that has a great deal of respect and appreciation of officials, and gets along with them quite well, game in and game out. So, whatever it was, it would be out of his normal character.
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I like the hop step Christal does sometimes when he gives a first down
I'm surprised that little hop step hasn't earned him a position as poster boy for Morton Mustard Company.
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So what should be the focus of this, the DOG, or the pony show that the WH put on, on the sidelines?
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Why would he upset? A) It has nothing to do with him. B) It was completely legal, because the player wore that jersey from the opening kickoff to the final whistle. Yeah, it was a different jersey than his normal number, and not the one he wore in warmups. Did Tech pull a fast one on Baylor? Yeah, probably. Against conference policy? Don't know. Against NCAA rules? No.
We don't yet know exactly when the jersey was changed but clearly it was changed after the warmup. If not against the written rule, clearly against the spirit of the rule.
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IMO at least one thing is obvious from watching and listening to the longer clip. After both TO's the crew are blowing whistles non-stop trying to get the teams back on the field with virtually zero response. Then the R apparently simply gives the RFP.
On the Tech TO Baylor takes their time coming back and is forced to then take their own TO since the play clock is going to expire and Baylor's coach is now PO'ed.
Same thing next time around, except this time Baylor hustles in late, again after the RFP, but goes directly to the line and is quickly in formation and ready to snap the ball. R knows he can't let Baylor snap with an uncovered WR so he kills it and calls the DOG.
IMO 30 second TO's and allowing the entire team to go to sideline don't work together, and also blowing the RFP well before either team has all 11 players back on the field and ready to go is a problem as well. Also, following a timeout, doesn't Team B still have the right to see the player lineup that A has sent out and match-up with their lineup of B players as long as they do it immediately and within the play clock time constraints?
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So to the remaining question, doesn't Team B still have the opportunity per the rules to see the player lineup that Team A has sent out after a team timeout, and then match-up with their lineup of Team B players as long as they do it immediately after the Team A players come on the field and within the play clock time constraints?
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I think thats the point. They didnt come right out after A got over the ball, the delayed and forced R's hand, lest he allow the snap before the D is in position.
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I think thats the point. They didnt come right out after A got over the ball, the delayed and forced R's hand, lest he allow the snap before the D is in position.
But we're only 9 seconds into the play clock, and still have 16 seconds remaining when the flag flies? Team B is clearly going to be ready long before the play clock becomes an issue. The whole sequence here doesn't make much sense IMO.
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Here's how I saw the longer version of the video.
- Tech calls a timeout and it's a 30 second time out, using the TV play clock, the play clock started 40-42 seconds later (and it starts at 25 coming out of a timeout instead of 40).
- Baylor then calls a timeout because their players are too damn slow going back out on the field and looking to the sidelines for the play. Briles isn't happy about the play clock starting before his guys get out there.
- The next timeout occurs at roughly 1:20 into the video and is also a 30 second timeout.
- The officials start blowing their whistles around 1:56 or 1:58. Players from both sides don't come out onto the field.
- At about 2:08 (now at 45 + seconds since timeout), the Baylor players start coming back onto the field.
- Whistles continue to blow to get Tech back on the field until about the 2:18 mark (almost a minute since the 30 second timeout started) and at this point Tech starts coming back on the field.
- At the 2:25 mark, Baylor is about to snap the ball so Randy Christal actually does Tech a favor by throwing the delay of game flag on Tech. You know how the rest of the story goes from there.
The reason I say he did Tech a favor is because if Baylor had been allowed to snap the ball, they had 3 WR's towards their sideline that had nobody covering them. Tech couldn't have been called for offsides, a substitution infraction or anything else. Baylor would've then had a 3 on 0 passing situation that likely would've resulted in a touchdown. By throwing the 5 yard delay of game flag, it saved Tech's lazy BUTT by keeping it still at 4th down and giving them a chance to match up.
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5346/ttdog.jpg)
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But we're only 9 seconds into the play clock, and still have 16 seconds remaining when the flag flies? Team B is clearly going to be ready long before the play clock becomes an issue. The whole sequence here doesn't make much sense IMO.
Team B getting ready before the play clock expires doesnt have anything to do with it. Well, i suppose it would if the crew knew for a fact that A was going to snap the ball with 2 secs on playclock. yes, team B would've been ready by then.
but the crew couldnt chance it. the ball was ready and A could've snapped it and had 2 completely uncovered wideouts.
i'm fine with the DOG. the UNS might've been warranted. we dont know what tuberville said. but I think it looks a little bad to have a flag for UNS moments after the WH was so animated. not saying the WH didnt have reason to be frustratred. but when he wears his emotions on his sleeve like that, it comes across a little like a baseball umpire. :D
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It's not the play clock, it's tge fact A can snap it at any time If R lets A snap when B is just returning to the field, then it's a free play for A. We cant let that happen.
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It's not the play clock, it's tge fact A can snap it at any time If R lets A snap when B is just returning to the field, then it's a free play for A. We cant let that happen.
Exactly my point. Rule 3-5-1-b says that:
While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes.
Following the TO while returning to their formation after the RFP, Team A immediately rushed to the ball. Why was Team B not allowed the right to "react promptly with its substitutes" which it in fact had started to do in 2-3 seconds after the RFP? And why was the U not over the ball at the RFP knowing that neither Team A or Team B was ready and both were still getting into formation?
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Exactly my point. Rule 3-5-1-b says that:
While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes.
Following the TO while returning to their formation after the RFP, Team A immediately rushed to the ball. Why was Team B not allowed the right to "react promptly with its substitutes" which it in fact had started to do in 2-3 seconds after the RFP? And why was the U not over the ball at the RFP knowing that neither Team A or Team B was ready and both were still getting into formation?
This is my question as well. If you are going to try and "save" Team B, why not have the U stand over the ball to prevent a quick snap. If the play clock runs out, penalize B. This seems to be an R looking for something to penalize that team for. Pretty disappointing if that is the case.
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I thought that after every change of possession or coming out of every TO, the crew has to be ready for a 3-5-2-c situation and potentially go into iron cross mode. Yes, Team B can end up with a delay of game foul, but only if they do not substitute promptly. From the video, I don't think that is the case.
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yeah, but this isn't really a subtitution situation. that text you cited isn't about teams coming out of a timeout.
team A didn't use the substitution process in an attempt to gain unfair advantage. Team B put themselves at an disadvantage by ignoring the requests to take the field.
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I thought that after every change of possession or coming out of every TO, the crew has to be ready for a 3-5-2-c situation and potentially go into iron cross mode. Yes, Team B can end up with a delay of game foul, but only if they do not substitute promptly. From the video, I don't think that is the case.
but how often after a change of possession is the ball made ready for play without the teams on the field? even if a team were to rush its offense on after they made an interception, there'd be no need for iron cross--because the ball's not going to be made ready for play just becaust the new Team A rushed the field.
that's what was unique about this and started it all. the teams weren't taking the field when they should. so the WH said, OK screw you guys. the ball's ready for play. this pretty much ensured that one side was going to get a DOG. unless they both hurried on and and the D was clearly set.
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yeah, but this isn't really a subtitution situation. that text you cited isn't about teams coming out of a timeout.
I don't agree. See AR 3-5-2-II
After a change of team possession or any timeout, the ball is declared ready for play. When Team A has completed its offensive formation, Team B must promptly position its personnel. Team B will be allowed time to complete substitutions.
RULING: Either team is subject to a delay-of-game foul—Team B for not completing its substitutions promptly (Rule 3-4-2-b-3) or Team A for causing the 25-second clock to expire. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot.
At 2:23 on the video, we see Team A in formation ready to snap the ball and 11 Team B players on the field of play attempting to get into matched formation. That was ~7 sec after the RFP.
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I stand corrected....sort of :D
yes, after a change of possession or timeout, Team B should get a fair look at what Team A is putting out there. I think this situation is still a little unique though. the key words in your quote, I think, are "When Team A has completed its offensive formation." to me, this implies that there's Team A people still shuffling onto the field, or subbing, AFTER the ready for play.
but I don't believe that's what happened on this play. (I cant see the video at work, so I could be misrecalling this, but I think team A's formation was pretty much on the field once the RFP was sounded.)
if they didn't rush anybody onto the field, or make substitutions after the ready for play, then I dont see why B would get an iron cross.
separate question: could the WH have simply penalized B for failure to come out on time? without making the ball RFP?
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Team B getting ready before the play clock expires doesn't have anything to do with it. Well, i suppose it would if the crew knew for a fact that A was going to snap the ball with 2 secs on playclock. yes, team B would've been ready by then.
but the crew couldnt chance it. the ball was ready and A could've snapped it and had 2 completely uncovered wideouts.
Exactly to my point - why was the RFP given while it was obvious that neither team was ready without the U over the ball? IMO that cannot happen, and then further allow the problem to get worse by letting A get all the way to where the snap is imminent while B is still hustling to get in position with a full 16 seconds left on the play clock?
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I think the WH was tired of waiting. It was a 30 second time out and in fact the 2nd 30 second TO taken because A took one when they werent ready for play and were going to get a DOG of their own. You can hear whistles blowing after 35-40 seconds to get the teams out on the field. After waiting 45 seconds, team A comes back out and the ball is then made ready for play. 10-15 seconds later, team B is just starting to come back out on the field. That's why I said that I think the WH was protecting team B from A getting a free play. B had plenty of time to match up (they aren't given 10-15 seconds in non-timeout situations) and chose to take their time to be ready for play.
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I don't agree. See AR 3-5-2-II
After a change of team possession or any timeout, the ball is declared ready for play. When Team A has completed its offensive formation, Team B must promptly position its personnel. Team B will be allowed time to complete substitutions.
RULING: Either team is subject to a delay-of-game foul—Team B for not completing its substitutions promptly (Rule 3-4-2-b-3) or Team A for causing the 25-second clock to expire. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot.
At 2:23 on the video, we see Team A in formation ready to snap the ball and 11 Team B players on the field of play attempting to get into matched formation. That was ~7 sec after the RFP.
It's hard to tell because the first 8 seconds after the RFP, the video shows two girls waving a sign. However, you can hear the RFP at 2:15 in the video, when Team A is all in the field in a huddle. Next thing, at 2:23 in the video, the offensive line is ready, while the last wide receivers are making it to the line, but Team B is obviously not ready, so you cannot let the snap happen.
There's 2 options:
1) R does iron cross, U should be over the ball allowing Team B to complete substitutions.
2) Decision is made that Team B is not completing it's substitutions promptly, and flag them for DOG (per the AR above, the play clock doesn't need to expire for this to be called).
While I would normally choose option 1, it's possible this was not the first time Texas Tech had taken their sweet time and had been warned by R. So he decided to take option 2, which is still a valid option.
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Even with choosing the option of DOG Tubberville should have been thanking Chrystal for the flag.
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Even with choosing the option of DOG Tuberville should have been thanking Chrystal for the flag.
Fixed it for you.
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IMO there is no way you can penalize either team for not substituting promptly when there is still 16 seconds left on the play clock even after the flag has been thrown, and the whistle blown. On this play Team A was plain and simple trying to get the play off before Team B was in place and matched up. The rules clearly say that we are required to make sure that does not happen.
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IMO there is no way you can penalize either team for not substituting promptly when there is still 16 seconds left on the play clock even after the flag has been thrown, and the whistle blown. On this play Team A was plain and simple trying to get the play off before Team B was in place and matched up. The rules clearly say that we are required to make sure that does not happen.
That is what the officials did. There had two prescribed actions, the choose to flag team B for DOG.
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Both teams had 11 players on the field and how many times have you seen the quarterbacks wait till the D gets set before they snap the ball so they know what defense they will be set in. If they wanted to hold it up the umpire could stayed with the ball till he was ready and if they did not get the snap off before the play clock hits "0" you tag the defense for DOG. It could saved a lot of problems. Christal looked very unprofessional during the whole situation.
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The issue here is simple: B used more time than alloted for a time out. Delay.
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The issue here is simple: B used more time than allotted for a time out. Delay.
But that's not what was actually flagged. The R allowed the teams (who BOTH were slow coming back multiple times) to come back and got into the play clock, then flagged only Team B when they were slightly slower than Team A. Team B would have been ready with 10-12 seconds (or more) still on the play clock. That is not DOG according to the rules. If the R was PO'ed at the repeated slow return by both teams after timeouts, then he should have warned them and flagged it without an RFP. Flagging only B, then quickly dropping a 15 yarder on top of that, injects the officials directly into the game with a major impact where IMO we simply should not be.